Do HST sets require turning?

[adb968008]

Heaton & Bounds Green both have turntables too.

 

I wonder what future lies for these now.

[45125]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Heaton & Bounds Green both have turntables too.

 

I wonder what future lies for these now.

Bounds Green has never had a turntable, there was one at Ferme Park however. 

[luckymucklebackit]

On 19/11/2019 at 08:26, caradoc said:

 

Virgin Drivers do not have route knowledge, other than for the main line, at Rutherglen.

 

Occasionally an Up Pendolino has been turned at Carstairs on the triangle there, however due to the signalling and track layout this does not entail a single reversal at Carstairs East Jc, but three reversals; At Carstairs South Jc, East Jc, and Carstairs station. The passengers must wonder what on earth is going on !

It is possible to turn an Up direction train at Motherwell, by reversing in Platform 1 and going forward via Holytown to Law Jc. A Down train could also turn by running into Motherwell via Holytown and reversing there.

 

When the West Coast Postal still ran, the full train was sent from Glasgow for a quick run round the Hamilton Circle, even after the lineside pickup was stopped.

 

Jim

[melmerby]

Cross Country trains using Birmingham New Street can arrive at either end for operational reasons, which means they get turned on a regular basis.

The other day a set from the SW to the NE went via Camp Hill rather than Selly Oak as booked which meant a reversal rather than a straight through run.

Others reverse as part of the schedule.

Edited November 20, 2019 by melmerby

[Fat Controller]

14 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Cross Country trains using Birmingham New Street can arrive at either end for operational reasons, which means they get turned on a regular basis.

The other day a set from the SW to the NE went via Camp Hill rather than Selly Oak as booked which meant a reversal rather than a straight through run.

Others reverse as part of the schedule.

You should have seen the confusion in the days of trains to the West Country being in portions for Paignton and Plymouth/Penzance when an unscheduled change of orientation happened. The Plymouth portion would be Service personnel (with huge kit-bags), whilst the other portion was families with prams and kitchen sinks.

[Gwiwer]

There is no need to turn sets in terms of evening out wheel wear or anything of that sort.

 

Since the fixed-formation train became the norm (HST or loco+coaches+DVT) there has been a right and a wrong way round.  For all London services it is First Class at the London end unless a reversal en route necessitates otherwise.  Cross Country does vary because of the numerous reversals involved but in general first class seems to be at the south / east end.  The new IETs have yet to fully settle down and much has been aired about them being presented "wrong way round" in the IET thread.  

 

GWR services via Gloucester would need to run as booked in both directions to avoid having a reverse-formed set; if Gloucester is missed in one direction but not the other the set will become reversed.  The same applies for those workings which proceed beyond Swansea to West Wales as they could potentially avoid Swansea by either the Landore Loop or Swansea District Line.  When working to West Wales trains can also avoid Carmarthen though this is now beyond normal HST/IET operation.  However there were workings at times and account had to be taken of how many reversals were scheduled. 

 

ECML sets could and regularly did turn "via the bridges" at Newcastle.  I have made numerous journeys when the train arrived or departed around the houses in order to present the right way round at its destination.  The same occurred in Edinburgh around the Suburban Line.  I am not familiar with any arrangements which might exist at Shipley but with a triangle there it may be possible to turn a set if required.

 

As The Stationmaster has said WR sets were turned "around Greenford" as required sometimes in order to have a defective power car replaced.  That move could not be done in passenger service so far as I am aware since at least some of the route was not passed for passenger use and neither could the turns at Bristol or Plymouth though Newcastle and Edinburgh could as the lines involved were all passed for passenger use.  

 

Cross Country sets are diagrammed in and out of Birmingham by the route required to maintain the set in the correct orientation but operational requirements mean that alternative routes are often used.  If necessary these sets can be turned again on the way back unless an opportunity arises elsewhere.  

[MarkC]

Pre-2008 I used to travel from Durham to Edinburgh regularly when visiting my Company's offices in Leith. I would catch the morning Leeds-Aberdeen HST, departing Durham about 0815 if memory serves, and this would almost always arrive in Durham with the First  Class at the front. We would enter Newcastle via the High Level Bridge, then reverse direction on departure, which then put the set 'right way round' for the rest of the day.

 

Mark

[melmerby]

12 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

Cross Country sets are diagrammed in and out of Birmingham by the route required to maintain the set in the correct orientation but operational requirements mean that alternative routes are often used.  If necessary these sets can be turned again on the way back unless an opportunity arises elsewhere.  

Some XC services via Birmingham always reverse by necessity. e.g. those coming up the "Western" from the South and going to the NE enter via Proof House Junction (via Solihull/Bordesley Jn.) and exit the same way to the Deby Lines.

So for half the journey each way they are the "wrong" way round, Those going to the NW come via Coventry and don't need to reverse

Those coming from the SW normally take the route that keeps them in the right orientation but sometimes enter from the wrong direction and reverse for operational reasons.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

There is no need to turn sets in terms of evening out wheel wear or anything of that sort.

 

 

As The Stationmaster has said WR sets were turned "around Greenford" as required sometimes in order to have a defective power car replaced.  That move could not be done in passenger service so far as I am aware since at least some of the route was not passed for passenger use and neither could the turns at Bristol or Plymouth though Newcastle and Edinburgh could as the lines involved were all passed for passenger use.  

 

 

'Round Greenford' was always signalled for passenger train use and most of the route was regularly used by passenger trains except the short stretch between Greenford East and South Junctions. (which in any case remained/remains signalled to passenger standards although it is a very long while since it was regularly used by passenger trains although it was always considered availabe for diversionary use).

 

As it happens in their early days the Clss 332 HEX sets had to be turned quite frequently to even out tyre wear until the problem of wear on the curve at Airport Jcn had been solved by various alterations to the sets.  the trains were turned 'round Greenford' as it was the nearest available way to do it and i made my then employer a nice little income by hiring out the necessary to HEX to get the job done.

 

BTW as already noted XC trains running to Southampton/Bourenemouth on their normal route via Reading all reverse at Reading; only the Newcastle - Reading trains (and the Guildford when it was running - is it still?) are not reversed at Reading.

[Wickham Green]

13 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

There is no need to turn sets in terms of evening out wheel wear or anything of that sort.

Apart from the Hexception mentioned by The Stationmaster, the vast majority of main line journeys will not accrue significantly different tyre wear on one side or t'other ..... where this will differ is on roundy-roundy 'trainsets' like the Circle Line and 'Clockwork Orange' : certainly LU like to keep their trains in a particular orientation so the tyres are turned not the trains !  ( I don't think Glasgow have facilities for turning vehicles.)

[Gwiwer]

7 hours ago, MarkC said:

Pre-2008 I used to travel from Durham to Edinburgh regularly when visiting my Company's offices in Leith. I would catch the morning Leeds-Aberdeen HST, departing Durham about 0815 if memory serves, and this would almost always arrive in Durham with the First  Class at the front. We would enter Newcastle via the High Level Bridge, then reverse direction on departure, which then put the set 'right way round' for the rest of the day.

 

Mark

It may have been the case that this set was diagrammed to arrive on Neville Hill the previous evening off a Down from Kings Cross which for operational reasons may have come in from Hambleton not via Wakefield.  In which case sending it out next morning to Aberdeen would indeed have put the first class at the front and the working "around the block" may have been both booked and timed for.  

 

Quote

certainly LU like to keep their trains in a particular orientation so the tyres are turned not the trains !

While this applies to most tube lines it does not apply to the "Surface" lines.  Since all those are now worked by S-stock and all bar the Metropolitan are worked by S7 sets these become reversed in service as they pass through the Aldgate and Earls Court triangles.  I see them daily at Richmond and Wimbledon; there is a slight bias towards having the nominal 3-car module (odd car numbers) at the eastern end but any train can be either way round.  The days of having to take good care with Circle Line trains to even out wear and tear are largely behind us as the Circle is no longer a circle but a curious Q-shaped line with trains reversing at Edgware Road when travelling via Bayswater and substantially evening out the wheel wear in the process.  There used to be District Line duties on Sundays through to Moorgate via Kings Cross which I understand was connected with adjusting wheel wear.

 

3 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

I don't think Glasgow have facilities for turning vehicles.

Not in traffic but it is possible via Broomloan depot.  Entering from the Outer (last stop Ibrox) the train runs into the headshunt.  It can then change directions and return to the Outer (first stop Govan) with the formation reversed.  Operating alternate days on the Inner and Outer also helps with wheel wear.  

[DY444]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

While this applies to most tube lines it does not apply to the "Surface" lines.

 

Bakerloo, Victoria, Jubilee and W&C trains don't get turned in service but Northern, Central and Piccadilly Line trains do

Edited November 21, 2019 by DY444

[Gwiwer]

4 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

Bakerloo, Victoria, Jubilee and W&C trains don't get turned in service but Northern, Central and Piccadilly Line trains do

Northern Line trains will cease to get turned in service once the Battersea branch opens and replaces the Kennington loop.

 

 

[Edwin_m]

3 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Northern Line trains will cease to get turned in service once the Battersea branch opens and replaces the Kennington loop.

The loop will continue to exist as far as I'm aware, so could be used for turning trains if necessary.  

[Gwiwer]

2 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

The loop will continue to exist as far as I'm aware, so could be used for turning trains if necessary.  

We are miles off topic here and I will always defer to a greater source of knowledge than mine.  I have always understood that the loop as it is today will cease to exist; trains have been running through the bored-out and much-enlarged tunnel for some time now but connection to the Battersea running tunnels would require removal of a short section of the revsersing loop.  I am happy to be corrected should that be misinformation.

[rockershovel]

4 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

We are miles off topic here and I will always defer to a greater source of knowledge than mine.  I have always understood that the loop as it is today will cease to exist; trains have been running through the bored-out and much-enlarged tunnel for some time now but connection to the Battersea running tunnels would require removal of a short section of the revsersing loop.  I am happy to be corrected should that be misinformation.

 

Mornington Crescent! 

 

[DavidB-AU]

Back on topic, once I boarded an HST at Bristol heading for Paddington and it reversed at Lawrence Hill. From memory it was due to a points failure. These days they would probably just send it via Parkway and bad luck to anyone at Bath Spa or Chippenham.

 

Cheers

David

[Edwin_m]

4 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

Back on topic, once I boarded an HST at Bristol heading for Paddington and it reversed at Lawrence Hill. From memory it was due to a points failure. These days they would probably just send it via Parkway and bad luck to anyone at Bath Spa or Chippenham.

 

Cheers

David

A couple of years ago I was on a GWR 158 from Cardiff destination Portsmouth on a very hot day when (as is typical for those units) only the front coach of three had air conditioning working.  There was an announcement of a short delay at Bristol due to this problem and I assumed they were getting a fitter to fix it.  But in fact they just turned the train via the Rhubarb curve so the driver could be in the cool end for the rest of the journey.  I assume they also turned it on the Fratton triangle on the way back.  

[DY444]

10 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Northern Line trains will cease to get turned in service once the Battersea branch opens and replaces the Kennington loop.

 

 

 

AIUI the service proposal for the extension still has a couple of tph terminating at Kennington, and in any event the loop will still be there so any blockage on the extension will still see trains turned.

[rockershovel]

7 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

Back on topic, once I boarded an HST at Bristol heading for Paddington and it reversed at Lawrence Hill. From memory it was due to a points failure. These days they would probably just send it via Parkway and bad luck to anyone at Bath Spa or Chippenham.

 

Cheers

David

 

I had a similar experience with XC during my Plymouth period last year. 

[Gwiwer]

5 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

A couple of years ago I was on a GWR 158 from Cardiff destination Portsmouth on a very hot day when (as is typical for those units) only the front coach of three had air conditioning working.  There was an announcement of a short delay at Bristol due to this problem and I assumed they were getting a fitter to fix it.  But in fact they just turned the train via the Rhubarb curve so the driver could be in the cool end for the rest of the journey.  I assume they also turned it on the Fratton triangle on the way back.  

Fratton triangle?

 

Possibly the Farlington triangle although to turn a unit there so as to keep one cab at the front would require significant time and potential delay to the many other services in the area.  It would require a reversal at Portsmouth (or Fratton) and another at Havant plus loss of service at some point unless a Portsmouth - Cardiff working were diverted via Havant for the reversal to take place.  That would entail around a 20 minute delay assuming no conflicting moves held it up.  

 

Fratton yards are triangular in configuration which arises from the original railway layout in the area and the line towards East Southsea.  But I cannot recall there ever having been an ability to turn anything via a triangle.  There was a turntable at Portsmouth & Southsea in steam days but Fratton has always been a depot facing Portsmouth with the former goods yard facing Hilsea.  

[Edwin_m]

Yes I guess it's Farlington - I don't get down that way very much.  Perhaps someone on here can clarify whether they ever turn Portsmouth-Bristol trains there - maybe not so bad for air conditioning as the leading cab would be at the north end.  

[Gwiwer]

2 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

 Perhaps someone on here can clarify whether they ever turn Portsmouth-Bristol trains there - maybe not so bad for air conditioning as the leading cab would be at the north end.  

I have never known it done.

 

GWR men - who work the service throughout I believe -  might not sign the route out to Havant which is required for the turn though some must do so in order to work the Brighton service.  Whether any sign the Portcreek - Farlington curve is a good question though.  Small but important piece of the jigsaw.  Even if SWR provides train crew from Salisbury they may not sign that curve.  

 

The timetable does not permit a turn.  Bristol / Cardiff trains will be turned short at Fratton if they arrive late and are unable to meet their return departure time.  They are occasionally even turned back at Fareham.  If one cab doesn't have air-con it might be a driver's decision whether to run the service or fail the unit.  If failed it can be shunted out to Fratton to await attention.

 

It is also possible to turn a unit by looping around Southampton and Eastleigh.  Romsey - Redbridge - Southampton - Eastleigh - Romsey does not involve a reversal but the unit will be facing the other way when it arrives back at Romsey.  As in the cab which faced south will now be facing north.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by Gwiwer

[Afroal05]

With GWR HSTs we used to have a Q path in the system every Monday morning to turn any HSTs that had been reversed over the weekend (or for any sets on the Oak that had found itself the wrong way round), if there had been an engineering block that had reversed sets either planning would try and calculate how many sets would be the wrong way round or a number of paths and crew diagrams would be put in to try and correct the fleet. This was also the case when we knew the sleeper would be required to go via Yeovil - which at one time was every 6 weeks.

 

Today there isn't too much turning of the 2+4s because the routes they're covering generally don't have any opportunity to turn them. There is a correct orientation for them (TGS at the Penzance end) as it affects where the TSD is and now with the CIS systems advertising which way round the service is top brass are keen it is advertised correctly.

 

As for PMH-CDF services most of them go in and out of Portsmouth Harbour with Fratton drivers although Westbury and Bristol West also sign all the way into the Harbour and do have some booked work during the day. I think all Fratton drivers sign via Havant and it is a utilised reversal point in the case of issues with the units. Reversing a unit via Eastleigh is probably the most common reversal you get on the Wessex. Generally speaking you get quite a good heads up about where a driver will fail a unit, the last one I had the driver called me after he left Brighton and said he wouldn't take the set beyond Southampton if I couldn't get it reversed via Eastleigh, in the end the WICC were able to accommodate a reversal at Fratton. But at least I was given plenty of warning!

Defective cab cooling is a pandemic in the summer and we're now at the time of year where defective cab heating is causing a couple of issues too! But I digress...

 

EDIT - When I say reverse via Eastleigh that is to reverse at Southampton Central and then go round through Eastliegh and Chandlers Ford

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Afroal05

[rockershovel]

I had not realised there were so many places on the U.K. network where a train could be reversed or turned! I seem to remember that one of the East Coast resorts requires reversing the train into the station - Yarmouth?