Maroon Coach livery dates

[Earl Bathurst]

After the end of steam, how long would you have seen maroon mk1 coaches running in express formations?

 

 

[SquireBev]

Do you mean whole rakes of maroon, or odd maroon coaches in rakes of Blue & Grey?

[Earl Bathurst]

2 minutes ago, SquireBev said:

Do you mean whole rakes of maroon, or odd maroon coaches in rakes of Blue & Grey?

Whole rakes of maroon.

I have seen images of mixed rakes but not too sure how quick BR would have repainted coaching stock into Blue/Grey  after 1968

[david.hill64]

Somebody posted the answer to this recently. There was a Derby based set that retained the maroon livery well into the 70's...........now who posted that?

[luckymucklebackit]

This has been discussed at length in the past, generally I refer to https://www.bloodandcustard.org/ for dates, on this site try https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146921-maroon-mk1’s/  and https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67660-the-last-mk1-rake-in-br-maroon-in-the-1970s/

[stovepipe]

The Derby maroon set was running on summer dated and excursion traffic up until the end of the 1973 1974 season. Then I think it was used as test train stock for a while longer, before being scrapped in maroon.  In front line services full maroon rakes would have gone much earlier, by around 1967/68 I would say.

Edited November 30, 2019 by stovepipe
Changed year

[Merfyn Jones]

Often forgotten is that coaches were painted individually not in sets.  Looking at photos from the period is the answer.

[The Johnster]

Blue/grey livery began to be applied to coaches from 1966, and vehicles rapidly appeared in trains from that time, first in singles then twos and threes.  By 1967 blue/grey liveried coaches were to be seen in almost all main line trains and hauled by steam where steam still ran (Northern England and Waterloo-Weymouth/Salisbury).  The earliest mk2a 'intergral bodyshell construction' coaches were in lined maroon or Southern Region malachite, 1965 built FKs with '4-panel' ventilators, and the 1966 built mk2bs were vacuum braked and steam heated, in blue/grey of course , and hence could be and were steam hauled.

 

Apart from the 'Derby set' mentioned, which became quite shoddy towards the end, very few whole rakes of maroon coaches could be seen after the end of 1967.  

 

B4 bogies were used on all new stock from 1965 on; their first use was on the last chocolate and cream mk1s built for the 'Bristolian' in 1962 and the Swindon Inter City class 123 dmus the same year.  These apart, along with the XP64 set and the mk2a FKs, were AFAIK the only pre-1966 use of these bogies.  There were no blue/grey mk2a coaches as built.

[SRman]

29 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Blue/grey livery began to be applied to coaches from 1966, and vehicles rapidly appeared in trains from that time, first in singles then twos and threes.  By 1967 blue/grey liveried coaches were to be seen in almost all main line trains and hauled by steam where steam still ran (Northern England and Waterloo-Weymouth/Salisbury).  The earliest mk2a 'intergral bodyshell construction' coaches were in lined maroon or Southern Region malachite, 1965 built FKs with '4-panel' ventilators, and the 1966 built mk2bs were vacuum braked and steam heated, in blue/grey of course , and hence could be and were steam hauled.

 

Apart from the 'Derby set' mentioned, which became quite shoddy towards the end, very few whole rakes of maroon coaches could be seen after the end of 1967.  

 

B4 bogies were used on all new stock from 1965 on; their first use was on the last chocolate and cream mk1s built for the 'Bristolian' in 1962 and the Swindon Inter City class 123 dmus the same year.  These apart, along with the XP64 set and the mk2a FKs, were AFAIK the only pre-1966 use of these bogies.  There were no blue/grey mk2a coaches as built.

Just a minor correction there: the earliest Mark 2 coaches were just Mk2, not Mk2a, and were identified in later publications as Mk2z. All Mk2a coaches were in blue/grey, and all Mk2 builds apart from those earliest maroon or green FKs were released to service in blue/grey. As an aside, the Mk2 FKs also had Mk1 style gangway connections.

[The Johnster]

I stand corrected.

[BernardTPM]

The first proper blue/grey repaints were in 1965, including delivery in late 1965 of the first production Mk.2 TSOs. The earliest photo I've found in in Modern Railways, September 1965 (published in August, of course) showing a Mk.1 RKB in blue/grey, though with tehnically incorrect Gill Sans lettering for 'BUFFET', but 'Kitchen' is in the correct Rail Alphabet. The AM10 (later Class 310) EMUs were also delivered in Rail Blue in 1965.

Edited November 20, 2019 by BernardTPM

[Reorte]

7 hours ago, SRman said:

Just a minor correction there: the earliest Mark 2 coaches were just Mk2, not Mk2a, and were identified in later publications as Mk2z. All Mk2a coaches were in blue/grey, and all Mk2 builds apart from those earliest maroon or green FKs were released to service in blue/grey. As an aside, the Mk2 FKs also had Mk1 style gangway connections.

 

Would the odd Mk2 in maroon end up in a steam-hauled rake (or even a whole train of them)?

[Merfyn Jones]

6 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Would the odd Mk2 in maroon end up in a steam-hauled rake (or even a whole train of them)?

Vacuum braked so could have been steam hauled.  No not a whole train, as they were only FK (Corridor Firsts) so any train would need a brake vehicle which would have been a Mk.1 or earlier.

[SRman]

19 minutes ago, Reorte said:

 

Would the odd Mk2 in maroon end up in a steam-hauled rake (or even a whole train of them)?

Like the green ones, one or possibly two might appear in a rake of Mk1 coaches. I have seen one photo or video with two green ones in the one train on the SR, but that was fairly unusual.

[stovepipe]

I've seen a photo online of an A4 on an Aberdeen - Glasgow service with a maroon Mk2 FK coupled immediately behind the tender. 

 

Edit: this one in fact

 

http://www.railpictorial.com/piwigo/picture.php?/3714/category/13

 

The Mk2 FK is also coupled to a Thompson coach.

Edited November 19, 2019 by stovepipe

[MidlandRed]

There were 46 initial build Mk2s (after the lined maroon prototype, W13252), and these were all FKs, numbered E13361-78; M13379-86; S13387-406. Delivered in August 1964 (the order was changed from Mark 1s) the Eastern and LM vehicles were lined maroon and the Southern unlined green. The E vehicles were steam/PV and the remainder dual (capable of ETH or steam from loco)/PV. 

 

Photos in Michael Harris BR Mark 2 coaches show two green SR mk2s marshalled at the front of the Golden Arrow Pullman, whilst an ER mk2 is shown in a rake of mark 1s on the ECML. 

 

After much wrangling and dithering between BRB and the Ministry over a protracted period, coaches were ordered for the WCML electrification (225) and began to appear (in blue and grey) in the spring of 1965. The WR managed to secure 26 coaches also - the last of the WCML coaches in the order didn't enter service until 1967. The early build LM (non blue and grey) coaches are stated to have been repainted in 1966 and used in the WCML sets.

 

These coaches used an airless spray technique with no varnish coat resulting in a semi matt (eggshell) finish (similar to early blue loco repaints/build). The under frames were in the chocolate brown colour. Presumably early mark 1 repaints would have started in 1965 with similar paint style. 

 

Some of the early WMCL blue/grey mk2s were used within sets on the Midland Division.

 

Apart from the electrified  WMCL, I recall coach sets particularly on cross country (NE/SW) trains through Birmingham having mixed maroon/blue grey stock for a considerable time and there are certainly photos showing this type of thing at least until 1968/69. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by MidlandRed

[luckymucklebackit]

16 hours ago, stovepipe said:

I've seen a photo online of an A4 on an Aberdeen - Glasgow service with a maroon Mk2 FK coupled immediately behind the tender. 

 

Edit: this one in fact

 

http://www.railpictorial.com/piwigo/picture.php?/3714/category/13

 

The Mk2 FK is also coupled to a Thompson coach.

 

I have a large collection of photographs of trains at Glasgow Buchannan Street (as research for my now dismantled model) and up to now I thought that BR blue coaches were extremely rare (one example of one coach) and absolutely zero for mark II, I always felt a little guilty running my maroon Bachmann MkII into the station, but there you go!  Thansk for posting

 

Edit - just to add, my last sighting of maroon coaching stock was at Llandudno Junction in August 1972, a relief to the Irish Mail came off the Holyhead line behind a Peak and it really stuck in my memory that it was mostly maroon

 

Jim

Edited November 20, 2019 by luckymucklebackit

[Fat Controller]

Two oddities found when looking through various 'Hydraulic' albums: 

A solid Chocolate and Cream rake of Mk1s, with a maroon Hawkesworth SK at the head (Heyday of the Hydraulics, p14)

A mixed maroon /blue and grey rake of Mk 1s with a Blue and Grey Hawkesworth SK.   (page 49, Heyday of the Warships)

For the SR Mk2 stock, how about this view in 1967  (in Heyday of the Hydraulics Page 23 ):

'Warship; B/G Mk1 BG; green catering vehicle (poss Bulleid) ; maroon Mk1 SO; green Maunsell (?) BCK; green BR Mk2 FK

[rodent279]

Follow-up question to this topic:- how long did the maroon & green mk2's survive until they were repainted blue & grey? 

[Phil Bullock]

And there was still at least one chocolate and cream coach …a BSK …. Running around in 1967. Wonder if it went straight to Blue/grey? 

[The Johnster]

One would assume that it did exactly that, Phil, as the B/G livery was introduced across the network in 1966.  I believe Swindon were painting coaches in WR choc/cream up until '62, which would suggest that some examples could have run in service until '69, but they were already becoming rarities by about '65.  A new 'Bristolian' set was turned out in '62 in chocc/cream with B4 bogies, also used on the Inter City 4-car dmus, and I've seen a photo of it behind a King at Locking Sidings, Weston-Super-Mare, can't remember where I saw the photo but probably a magazine article.

 

48 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Follow-up question to this topic:- how long did the maroon & green mk2's survive until they were repainted blue & grey? 

 

We've had a topic on this, can't remember what it was called though.  As a general rule, passenger coaches were overhauled and repainted every 7 years, which puts the last lined maroon into '73, but there was a 10-coach set kept at Derby for testing and running in of locos with, that I believe I am corrent in saying lasted longer than that (1978?), with the livery looking increasingly faded.  Not sure this counts as they were not in normal service. 

 

There was an extensive refurbishment program for mk1s in the late 60s, '66 or 7 I think, that lasted a few years and saw any coach that went through it repainted into blue/grey.  Bogies were replaced with B4s for 100mph running, new seating provided, formica interior panelling and flourescent lighting.  Brakes were dual or air.  Not all stock was included in this, and some were left with vacuum braked B1 bogies, wooden veneer interiors, and filament bulbs, restricted to 75mph for secondary main line, charter, relief, and excursion work, but they were repainted in blue/grey when their time was due.

[br2975]

The 'Derby Maroon Set' formed the 16.50 Birmingham-Leeds on 20 September, 1974.

The set comprised M34458, 24936, 25666, 24752, 15444, 15183, 24035, 24870, 25122, 21030

.

As for Chocloate & Cream

FO W3085, FK W13074, BCK W21188, SK W24544, BG W80723 ran on B4 bogies whilst in  in Chocolate & Cream, also

BSK W34885 was still in Chocolate & Cream, in 1968

Edited November 22, 2021 by br2975

[Tom Burnham]

A few Bulleid design carriages were transferred away from the Southern Region and repainted in maroon. Recall seeing some withdrawn examples in a siding at Bishops Stortford around 1969.

[bécasse]

On 19/11/2019 at 12:54, SRman said:

Like the green ones, one or possibly two might appear in a rake of Mk1 coaches. I have seen one photo or video with two green ones in the one train on the SR, but that was fairly unusual.

The green Mk2 FKs on the Southern were all(?) loose vehicles although by the time they appeared the Southern's rigid coaching set arrangements were rapidly breaking down anyway as individual vehicles within sets were withdrawn because they needed un-authorised minor repairs. The Mk2 FKs certainly appeared in Bournemouth line trains since I remember riding in one with its then-novel opening door arrangement, however the main use of loose 1st class vehicles tended to be in Southampton Docks boat trains ("Ocean Liner Express") which were still running at the time and whose formation was generally made up to match the requirements of the day - hence it would not have been unusual to see one of those boat trains with several of the new Mk2 FKs in it, although another might well have had none. The same could apply to certain (horse)race trains, although there the need for significant 1st class accommodation was often met by placing antimacassars, carpets and ("for use of passengers travelling FIRST CLASS") window labels in 2nd class stock.

Edited November 23, 2021 by bécasse

[30851]

On 22/11/2021 at 05:29, rodent279 said:

Follow-up question to this topic:- how long did the maroon & green mk2's survive until they were repainted blue & grey? 

Michael Harris in his MK 2 book says the LM allocated ones were repainted in 1966 when they were added to the new WCML sets. On the Southern you could still see green ones until the end of steam (7/67) but would rapidly disappear after that as they were taken out of service to be fitted with air brakes. By May 68 they were back with air brakes and in blue & grey.

 

No clue what happened on the Eastern!

 

Rob