Bachmann suburban coaches.

[Robert Stokes]

I have been thinking about replacing six very old (40+ years?) Airfix suburban coaches. A few years ago I improved them by fitting Bachmann bogies with metal wheels. Some years before that a couple of buffers broke off (can't remember how it happened) so I replaced them all with brass ones. This means that any replacement must be significantly better to make it worth buying new ones.

 

Some weeks ago I bought off Ebay a couple of Bachmann suburbans 34-602 and 34-626. I was very disappointed with them as they had plastic wheels and the old style chunky tension lock couplings despite being advertised as new. They must have been very old stock!  I could not complain because the product numbers and pictures were provided. I just didn't research them properly. I sold them on - at a loss of course. The point of this enquiry is not to make the same mistake again.

 

I have since seem advertised some Bachmann suburbans which, as best as I can see, appear to be a later generation. They are 34-604C, 34-630A, 34-630B and 34-700C. They even have some fitted passengers. Are these coaches of modern standard? What bothers me is that they are being heavily discounted by several retailers. Against RRP of £39.95 I have seen them advertised as low as £23. One retailer said it was a clearance offer. Why do they want to clear them at bargain prices if they are current models? Do they know that Bachmann are soon to issue upgraded versions. 

[SRman]

I don't know if Bachmann are planning newer models of these, but the existing tooling is getting old, as you have already seen. They don't have flush glazing or mod-cons such as close-coupling mechanisms. This means you have two choices:

1. buy the existing models knowing that you have to spend money and do some work on them to bring them up to scratch, or 
2. don't buy them and wait to see if Bachmann or some other manufacturer produce something better. Hornby have several pre-nationalisation non-gangwayed coach types that are up to modern standards. Some of those may possibly suit your needs.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Even the latest incarnation of the Bachmann ones still need some work to get them looking something near to modern standards.

If you are looking for LMS the Hornby Period 3 non-corridors are best at the moment. Shop around and be patient and you can pick them up for reasonable pricess. You can find them going for about £25 on ebay and I have seen a four coach bundle at under £100 at a retailer.

 

Right up to the early 1960s there were still a lot of Period 2 and even a few Period 1 suburbans about. Lavatory ones got mixed in with others, so you could upgrade some Airfix ones a bit more for a small cost and a bit of modelling. When I did a Pull-Push set  cut'n'shut from Airfix donors I used Shawplan lazer glazing and it improves to look greatly.  

[DCB]

There are some Bachmann 34-604C  advertised as Suburban Open Seconds with pictures of Compartment seconds appended.   the - 608 appears to be the open and the - 604 the compartment coach.   I think retailers are having a hard time shifting these coaches for the simple reason that the not quite latest iterations have some features better than 35 year old ones and some inferior features.   I often wonder if any were ever sold at retail price.  Sometimes cash flow considerations mean they have to shift stock even at a loss, 

[The Johnster]

Not up to speed on LMS suburbans, but a good way of determining if any item on 'Bay is current or at least fairly recent production run is to look at the couplings.  If they are current or recent these will be NEM profile.  Even if the tooling is unchanged from Airfix days, recent stock will have better profile buffers and all-metal wheels.

[tractionman]

9 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

 I could not complain because the product numbers and pictures were provided. I just didn't research them properly. I sold them on - at a loss of course. The point of this enquiry is not to make the same mistake again.

 

 

hi Robert,

 

I find the Model Rail Database a really useful resource for checking the vintage of rolling stock -- https://www.modelraildatabase.com/coaches/

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

[Zunnan]

If you're looking to replace Airfix suburbans, which are LMS, I would certainly side with going the Hornby route as they are also LMS diagrams so it is more of a like for like upgrade and are a much more up to date tooling than the Bachmann Mk1 subs.

 

The Bachmann subs have their place, they're not fundamentally bad models at all but there is better much more modern models out there for similar prices. If you wanted them to up to date standards, there are plenty of options to updrage these older models in much the same ways that the Airfix subs can be upgraded. I'm sure you can get flush glazing for them, Keen systems close coupling and all sorts of other detailing bits and pieces, it really just depends how far you want to go with them.

[CloggyDog]

The Bachman tooling for the Mk1 Subs are now rather long in the tooth, even if they are still in the range as current stock.

 

The basic shape is there and they do look like Mk1 Subs, it's just the detail is now poor compared to modern releases.

 

Laser-cut flush glazing is available from Shawplan (c £8 per coach), wheels can be swapped for metal ones, the underside trussing could be replaced (Southern Pride/Replica/Comet) or bodge a Bachmann BG chassis, but yes, that will all add to the cost/time.

 

I've upgraded a bunch to varying degrees for a BR blue project, as BR Mk1 Subs were the only such stock still running in the 1970s.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

11 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

...   I often wonder if any were ever sold at retail price...

Twenty years ago, as my re-entry to model railways was getting underway I found myself in a now closed model shop (the business happily continues) and was acquainting myself with what was then on offer in RTR OO. One of the proprieters was a noted wit, and called to me to check whether the Bachmann mk1 subs were actually glued to the shelf.

A negotiation then ensued, and I 'unglued' the entire stock of 21 that I still have today, in return for a decent discount: they cost little more than the very handsome Bachmann WD 2-8-0 that I had gone in to collect.

 

"Shan't be stocking those subs again" was his parting comment... I very much doubt they will ever get a remake.

 

Worth the glazing upgrade mentioned above. Cheapo dodge what with the KX examples being 'out and home' shuttles', only do one side...

[Robert Stokes]

Thank you for the helpful replies, particularly the link to production dates. It shows that the ones I bought a few weeks ago and resold date from 1994 and the ones that I am now considering are relatively recent at 2016.  That link could be helpful again in the future.

 

I think that I will defer the decision about which ones to buy (if any) until I have seen the latest Hornby and Bachmann ones in the flesh, perhaps at a show. In the meantime, having partially upgraded the Airfix ones already, I may get new windows for them and see what they look like then. I will only have to do one side of each because on my layout trains only run clockwise or anticlockwise.

 

Robert

[trevor7598]

The present Bachmann short suburbans are indeed ' old hat '. A re-tool is long overdue.

Compare them to Bachmann's 2EPB which is to modern standards, and is a very

good rendition of the BR standard suburban ' look '.

[The Johnster]

Perhaps the 'shelf glue' issue for Baccy mk1 suburbans is related to the fact that, with the exception of the KX services, they only appeared very shortly before being replaced by multiple units and in many cases did not outlast the stock they were supposed to replace by much if at all.  The mk1 suburban 'profile' was far more common and longer lasting in the form of emu stock and, in open saloon form, in high density dmus.

 

I'd agree that a retooling might boost sales of these coaches, but with laster longing Big 4 suburbans now available as Colletts, Staniers, Gresleys, and Thompsons, and no Southern Railway built prototypes to model AFAIK (i'm no expert on Southern loco hauled non-gangwayed compartment stock), the market is not far off saturation.  It's only the Hawksworth 64' left, isn't it?

 

Don't forget that Thompsons and Hawksworths were still being built after nationalisation, and some of the Hawksworths had very short lives, along with the WR's mk1 suburbans. 

[Zunnan]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'd agree that a retooling might boost sales of these coaches, but with laster longing Big 4 suburbans now available as Colletts, Staniers, Gresleys, and Thompsons, and no Southern Railway built prototypes to model AFAIK (i'm no expert on Southern loco hauled non-gangwayed compartment stock), the market is not far off saturation.  It's only the Hawksworth 64' left, isn't it?

 

Going wildly off topic, I'd like to see Hornby eventually repeat what they did with the LNERs Gresley and Thompson subs and provide earlier panelled LMS suburbans to intermingle with the steel sided Staniers they have in the range. A motley mix of stock was quite characteristic right up to replacement by multiple units.

[Zunnan]

Just for a bit of completeness and comparison, I thought it worth snapping the various vehicles in question, all BR(M).

 

First up the Bachmann Mk1s, I believe this one with the fitted passengers represents (one of) the most recent offerings of this now quite venerable range, and is currently available from Kernow in 4 coach sets (BS/SO/C/BS) for just under £100, which really is a bargain in todays price climate. From certain angles and at normal viewing distance the lack of flush glazing isn't too apparent. The moulding is getting tired but its still presentable, the underframe detail is rather heavy though, those V hangers in particular are about as fine as a sledge hammer. They are readily improved, my main gripes are the glazing, V hangers and lack of a close coupling mechanism, all of which can be fixed without too much hardship; especially when you pick them up for a reasonable price.

 

Next is the Airfix offering, this one is the Dapol rehash which is really quite a disappointing bit of a mongrel. You can see from this one the weird slab of plastic which is supposed to represent the back of the battery box...on entirely the wrong side of the coach, while the battery box is just a thin bit of moulded plastic missing the rest of the box behind it! Also missing are the coach end windows, if I remember correctly the Airfix model does have them. I also had to correct the roof on the Dapol brakes, as mine were all supplied with the roof from the lav composite and the glazing is absolutely dismal.  Its fair to say, if you can get the original Airfix suburbans, its less work to respray them than it is to make the Dapol release comparable. As with the Bachmann suburbans, you can infinitely improve these as well with chassis detail, separate handrails and proper flush glazing.

 

The Hornby LMS suburbans are in a league of their own compared with the Bachmann and Airfix subs, oddly they don't seem to be swift sellers, which is great for picking them up at relatively bargain prices. I haven't paid more than £35 for one yet. The chassis detail can be a bit vulnerable to damage, but they are otherwise fantastic models.