60015 Hornby have done it again

[Craigw]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

I understand that there are livery issues with the model which in theory should not be there.  I understand that there are dedicated modellers who seek their toys/models to be exact scale representations of the prototype and yet some criticise about a logo location or a wrong shade of a colour and yet these same people ignore the 16.5mm track spacing.  Surely if such people are seeking perfection then a correct gauge representation would be uppermost in their modelling,   not just the livery. 

 

 

 

If someone does convert the model to P4 then the livery will still be wrong. I dont think anybody is demanding perfection, but a livery something close to reality would be good. This is particularly so with the modern liveries because people buy the models specifically for the different schemes.

 

Craig W

[GWR-fan]

Truffy,

           remind me how much money Hornby spent relocating several years ago to a new corporate headquarters and then spent further money to locate back to their original Margate address.  Perhaps you were being funny or perhaps you were unaware of the corporate office relocation.  I believe that when one refers to Hornby as "back in the Margate days" the general assumption is one of relatively poorly detailed tender drive models or loco drive models fitted with X04 motors.  You are aware though that Hornby's history is not only at Margate.

 

As regards a shade of green,  well when one is referring to a particular shade as being appropriate to a prototype then it could be considered as CORRECT.  If another shade was selected that did not match the prototype then it would be considered as INCORRECT.   And your point is.........................................

Edited November 22, 2019 by GWR-fan

[GWR-fan]

1 hour ago, Craigw said:

 

If someone does convert the model to P4 then the livery will still be wrong. I dont think anybody is demanding perfection, but a livery something close to reality would be good. This is particularly so with the modern liveries because people buy the models specifically for the different schemes.

 

Craig W

 

Craig ,

          if one is aware of the meaning of a particular logo and saw it applied to a model of a particular loco then that person would state, "Oh that is a model of a class XX loco with a specific purpose as defined by the logo applied".   A typical person would not condition the class or the purpose of the loco based upon the particular location of the specific logo on the model.   As regards the model's  logo being perhaps a millimetre or two out of position how does that not make the model  "....livery close to reality ......." (your words).   How close is close to represent what the model is?   No one is doubting that the livery is incorrect but to what extent does analism play in a manufacturer and their models.  Yes, we would like them to be completely accurate but mistakes do occur and how we react to those mistakes is not going to change the thinking of  Hornby.   As stated,  the INCORRECT shade of green used on Hornby's GWR locomives is a case in point.   As I stated previously,   many no doubt would not have even picked up the mistake but for an eagle eyed observer who knew the prototype.  Others would have remained blissfully in the dark ignorant of the incorrectly applied livery.

[Craigw]

33 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

 As I stated previously,   many no doubt would not have even picked up the mistake but for an eagle eyed observer who knew the prototype.  Others would have remained blissfully in the dark ignorant of the incorrectly applied livery.

 

The fact that someone is ignorant of a mistake or error does not make it any less of an error.

 

If accuracy is of minimal concern to you,  that is your path and your approach. But don't expect that others will follow that approach. Moreover, I suspect that they will continue to comment about this and other matters.

 

Craig W

[YesTor]

 

44 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Yes, we would like them to be completely accurate but mistakes do occur and how we react to those mistakes is not going to change the thinking of  Hornby.  

 

I'm pretty certain that it would change Hornby's thinking if sufficient models remain on their warehouse shelves unsold and eventually end up being cleared in bargain bins...

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by YesTor

[GWR-fan]

32 minutes ago, YesTor said:

 

 

I'm pretty certain that it would change Hornby's thinking if sufficient models remain on their warehouse shelves unsold and eventually end up being cleared in bargain bins...

 

 

 

You may think this latest model is an exception but I have never seen a class 60 in a bargain bin nor seen a cheap pre-owned model.  The class 60 holds it value very well and I personally do not believe that a minor logo location would drastically impact on sales.  I did Google images for the prototype and yes the raised logo location on the model is obvious once informed but is it sufficient to raise one's blood pressure over?

[Br60066]

41 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

 

You may think this latest model is an exception but I have never seen a class 60 in a bargain bin nor seen a cheap pre-owned model.  The class 60 holds it value very well and I personally do not believe that a minor logo location would drastically impact on sales.  I did Google images for the prototype and yes the raised logo location on the model is obvious once informed but is it sufficient to raise one's blood pressure over?

I think you've hit the nail on the head. There have definitely been more drastic mistakes in this hobby before that didn't sink the model. In the case of 60015 would the average modeller have even noticed that the logo was placeded wrongly if they hadn't read this thread? I know that was the case for me

[YesTor]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

 

I did Google images for the prototype and yes the raised logo location on the model is obvious once informed but is it sufficient to raise one's blood pressure over?

 

I can't speak for everyone but my blood pressure isn't raised.  At the end of the day all of this depends upon one's individual perspective.  Would you buy a GWR loco with GRW printed on the side?  I'd guess perhaps not.  But why not, it's only a logo, a toy train, right?  Great Western Railway, or Great Railway Western, it's all the same, surely?  Who cares?  Horses for courses.    To anyone with even a passing knowledge of Class 60s and the livery in question the logo is clearly wrong - and I didn't need Google to lookup the livery to tell me it was wrong.  And I wouldn't buy it.  End of story.  However I'm not about to have a coronary over it. 

 

With the greatest respect, if anything you seem to be catastrophising some of the comments made on the subject when in fact people are more than likely simply expressing an opinion, which is largely what forums are for. 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by YesTor

[GWR-fan]

3 minutes ago, YesTor said:

 

........................................However I'm not about to have a coronary over it. 

 

 

 

I am pleased for you as without the medical bills you will have more money to spend on your hobby.

[YesTor]

1 minute ago, GWR-fan said:

 

I am pleased for you as without the medical bills you will have more money to spend on your hobby.

 

Diversionary tactic - changing the subject: debater is losing so he tries to redirect the attention of the audience to another subject area where he thinks he can look better relative to the person he is debating...    

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Did Hornby recall all the incorrect shade GWR models or the GWR coaches with modern BR bogies, or liveries with the colour separation minusculey incorrectly aligned on a coach side or the numerous other faults that we have come to associate with Hornby models? 

 

Over in North America Rapido Trains have just released their B36-7 model and a mistake at the factory means some of the models have shipped with the wrong sideframes.  Rapido is getting correct sideframes made and will provide them to those who have models with the incorrect version.

 

It's been a while, but I also recall a Rapido passenger car with an error in the paint scheme (lettering?) - they had replacement shells made and provided to modellers who ended up  with the mistake.

 

True Line Trains made replacement shells when a reefer was painted the wrong colour.

 

Other manufacturers have also provided replacement shells/parts when a significant enough mistake happens.

 

So the question really should be why aren't Hornby correcting the mistakes that are being made.

Edited November 22, 2019 by mdvle

[YesTor]

2 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

The fact that someone is ignorant of a mistake or error does not make it any less of an error.

 

If accuracy is of minimal concern to you,  that is your path and your approach. But don't expect that others will follow that approach. Moreover, I suspect that they will continue to comment about this and other matters.

 

Craig W

 

Nail-on-the-head. 

[GWR-fan]

21 minutes ago, YesTor said:

 

Diversionary tactic - changing the subject: debater is losing so he tries to redirect the attention of the audience to another subject area where he thinks he can look better relative to the person he is debating...    

 

I was being polite to you as there is an obvious difference between an incorrectly named roadname and and incorrectly positioned logo,  which I assume would be understood as common sense, but obviously not.  

[GWR-fan]

19 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Over in North America Rapido Trains have just released their B36-7 model and a mistake at the factory means some of the models have shipped with the wrong sideframes.  Rapido is getting correct sideframes made and will provide them to those who have models with the incorrect version.

 

It's been a while, but I also recall a Rapido passenger car with an error in the paint scheme (lettering?) - they had replacement shells made and provided to modellers who ended up  with the mistake.

 

True Line Trains made replacement shells when a reefer was painted the wrong colour.

 

Other manufacturers have also provided replacement shells/parts when a significant enough mistake happens.

 

So the question really should be why aren't Hornby correcting the mistakes that are being made.

 

 

There was no recall.  Hornby in the case of the B4 bogies on a GWR suburban B coach simply offered replacement bogies for those interested.  Several years later stores were still selling the coaches new stock still with their B4 bogies.   Like the recent Gresley teak full brake coach guard's lookout omission it was left to the consumer to sort it out.  The only recall in my recent memory was the recall of a budget model 14XX in which about half the production run was removed from the market to have oversized traction tyres fitted as there was a design issue with the rear axle on the model being unsprung, unlike earlier and later production runs.

[KDG]

Dapol recently released a new class 68 deisel with a misaligned printed logo on the body side. They still sold really well as it is an excellent loco, as is Hornby's class 60. I own several of both.

 

What Dapol did, was to offer free replacement body shells for those customers who wished one, on receipt of the original one.

 

It was for me a seamless process.

 

I'd suggest that would be the appropriate course of action here....

 

It would show to modellers who care about that level of accuracy that Hornby care too, and would enhance their customer service reputation too.

Edited November 22, 2019 by KDG
Smelling pistake

[MGR Hooper!]

I strongly suggest people take up the matter with Hornby directly. Whether you're worried about the error or not, Im sure Hornby can sort out something. It's not like they've not sorted out issues in the past. Quite a few are unhappy and rightly so.

But rather than rant about it here (which is fine), I think the issue will really be sorted out if multiple people contact Hornby direct and ask for a recall/replacement shell. Yes there are Hornby reps here, but the most active being their R&D person. I think this sort of issue needs to be handled by someone higher up.

So please get in touch with Hornby.

[Legend]

5 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

So the question really should be why aren't Hornby correcting the mistakes that are being made.

 

Because they' ve probably already sold all the locos from the production run .  So they will do what Hornby normally do , say nothing and wait for storm to blow over.

 

It is probably just a silly mistake , however it is indicative of a lack of process to get these things right .So could it happen again?    People place pre orders on the basis that models will turn out correctly , so actually this is more far reaching than just being a mistake on this model , because it means people will lack confidence in pre ordering again.

 

While I see outrage at things I can accept, the number of spokes on a wheel for instance(each of us is different), I think this error is a bit more glaring .  Its clearly wrong and if you follow this useful thread you will see that repositioning the logo yourself is actually not easy . So its a glaring mistake, its not easy to correct , the image on the box is not the same as the model and it costs £180. So I think here a little outrage , in the context of model railways, is justified.

[dj_crisp]

I don't understand why anyone should accept something as flawed as this.... it's not a debatable mistake (i.e. shade of colour) as it's incorrectly positioned and I think it's poor that it got this far to market. Hornby should not have accepted this batch. End of

 

Totally agree with comments from YesTor. As a diesel sectorisation modeller it's the equivalent of putting a nameplate on a chimney to me so has to be moved. Not something thats easy to do or should have to do on an model like this. 

[Waverley West]

3 hours ago, MGR Hooper! said:

I strongly suggest people take up the matter with Hornby directly. Whether you're worried about the error or not, Im sure Hornby can sort out something. It's not like they've not sorted out issues in the past. Quite a few are unhappy and rightly so.

But rather than rant about it here (which is fine), I think the issue will really be sorted out if multiple people contact Hornby direct and ask for a recall/replacement shell. Yes there are Hornby reps here, but the most active being their R&D person. I think this sort of issue needs to be handled by someone higher up.

So please get in touch with Hornby.

 

Some years ago, I wrote at length to Simon Kohler, giving him critical but constructive feedback on the horrible yellowy shade of InterCity pale grey that Hornby use. I also gave him constructive feedback on how Hornby's close coupling mechanisms kept derailing my stock every time it went round a bend. 

 

I never did receive a reply (and yes, I realise SK is a busy man). I did see a quote from him a while later still insisting that the colour was spot on, despite the fact that it is so blatantly wrong, giving a horrible yellowy appearance, especially on a full rake of coaches. I am just one of many to have brought up the issue too.

 

I have also been in touch with Hornby's rep. Paul about the CCMs, sending him many references to threads on here and elsewhere and giving my own experiences about derailments caused by the mechanisms. He claimed to be completely unaware of the problem. Not a jot has ever been done about it and the design of Hornby's CCMs on its latest diesels appears to be the same. It's been a major problem for me and one I still haven't fully resolved on my Class 50s, despite extensive modifications of my own. I have yet to tackle a Class 60. Hornby has never acknowledged the existence of any problems with their CCMs either, as far as I am aware. I know many other people suffer the same problems too.

 

So, please forgive me if I don't bother contacting Hornby on this occasion. I will just not be buying. I often respray my stock, so yes, I could correct it. But an optional purchase at £180 to put at the back of the modelling project queue? I don't think so. 

 

Perhaps if enough people contact Hornby, they may be persuaded to offer replacement body shells, as Heljan and Hornby Dapol have done in the past. But I won't be holding my breath.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Waverley West
Corrected: I meant to say Heljan and Dapol, not Hornby!

[truffy]

I agree with @MGR Hooper! that the best thing to do is to raise the problem directly with Hornby, but also with @Waverley West that the chances of anything positive coming from it are slim. Hornby cannot even supply spare smoke deflectors for their kettles, so the idea that they'll supply a whole body shell seems far-fetched. Having said that, it is their mistake, and they have been known to rectify such things in the past (reversed T9 tender, for example, although that didn't involved a whole relivery).

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, AlexHolt said:

 

When the Hornby LNER teak coaches released earlier this year they had been shipped without the guard ducket on the brake coaches. Hornby supplied the part to those that asked but theres still some brand new in box missing it and I don't know if you can still get the part that they forgot to fit in the Factory. 

Whenever Hornby tries to fix anything like this once its with the Modeller its never done very well. They correct a few of their mistakes but not all.

 

Technically if Hornby had ordered 500 coaches from the factory, and one assembler left the ducket off 100 models, then there would have been 200 duckets floating round the factory once production was complete. If all these were then sent over to the UK once Hornby got in touch with the factory then there won't be a problem.

 

The key problem is the time lag between production and the problem being discovered in the UK as the first modellers started to recieve them. By the time  customers raised the issue with Hornby the factory will have long since moved onto other products and it will be very difficult to arange a further supply of duckets as a special order.

 

So if the factory went and threw away 100 duckets left over as a result of the assemblers error as 'surplus to requirements' then its likely Hornby will not have enough.

[Andy Mac]

This is the reason I no longer pre order Hornby loco’s...  i’d Rather wait a few weeks to see what the model looks like in real life before committing to buying....   saying that I nearly lost out on their Scotrail mk2f’s, i’d Been expecting them in the wrong colours, as per their Scotrail 156’s, which were way off!

Edited November 22, 2019 by Andy Mac
Tidy up!

[shunny]

My dad had the model ordered and after seeing the error emailed Hornby yesterday and they replied stating they are aware of issue and are looking at what can be done. So there is a chance they may do something to correct the error. 

[KDG]

Let's be fair to Hornby though, when a problem was identified with the class 800 IEP's, they did fix that for customers who returned them free of charge.

 

This mis-printing shouldn't have happened, and should have been picked up prior to shipping of the main batch, but let's give them time to put something into place. There probably isn't a couple of thousand spare class 60 bodies hanging around somewhere.

[AY Mod]

I had a chat with SK about this today. He is aware of the issue and investigating remedies at the mo.