LNER Good Shed door height

[aardvark]

I’m modelling 1950’s Banff , and need help to identify the likely height of the rail doors on both the Banff goods shed, and the engine shed.  I believe that goods shed to be a typical LNER shed, similar (but not identical) to Alford, Blacksboat, Kintore and elsewhere.

 

I’m in possession of some drawings for OO models of both, which feature 60mm openings from rail head.  Of course, this corresponds to the 15’0” minimum prototype dimension detailed in BR structure gauges.  Being a beginner, and knowing not all that much about anything, I was happy to simply accept this until I stumbled over the following.

 

 

This is an excerpt from a larger image that is quite identifiably Banff, and shows an unidentified van just inside the door of the goods shed.  Measuring from this image, the van would be at most 13’6” over railhead, which would make the opening 15’0”.  However, LNER 12 ton goods vans (diag 94) were only 12’3”, which would make the opening just 13’9”.

Knowing little, it seems plausible that the 15’0” clearance would apply to station valences, bridges and tunnels where a passing train would be expected to be travelling at speed, but that lower opening heights might have been used in early goods sheds and engine sheds, where the van or loco would have been moving at very low speeds.

 

Can anyone ease a beginner’s confusion?

[EddieB]

I’m not sure how you’ve calculated the sizes, and whether you’ve made adjustments, but it looks to me that the van is standing half in, half out (check the shadows) of the goods shed.  As it’s an enlargement of a section of a photo, it suffers from an exaggerated perspective (similar to telephoto compression), such that the facing end of the van is relatively larger than the opening of the goods shed.

 

If you compare the carriage on the right, which spans a longer space than the van, there’s quite a big difference between the facing and rear end heights as they appear in the photo.  Now you could be really clever and apply a bit of triangulation to tighten up the measurements from the photo, but I’d suggest that it would be easier to stick with the dimensions on the drawing you have.  Besides, unless you can be certain that all your stock will be of scale height, you might find lowering the measurement might lead to problems later on.

[Wickham Green]

Beware of 'typical LNER' - this would ( might ? ) have been typical GNSR when it was built so your 'elsewhere' would be a little more limited.

 

The van looks like a wartime LMS plywood vehicle and the relevant wagon book(s) will give the nominal height.

[aardvark]

Many thanks - yes, I am wary of "typical LNER", but more about that another time.

 

I had been hoping that someone might have said something representative about goods shed door heights in general.  A hope, but not an expectation.

 

The Banff goods shed was at the end of a siding, so there is no through traffic.  The station also had a goods platform, so anything that didn't fit in the shed could have been unloaded at the platform.  I suspect that large items would have been unloaded there anyway.

 

In the end, this is less about what a GNSR, LNER or BR loading gauge was, and more about what the typical height of a van was.  So I've tried mocking up the scene using a PC61 LNER 12 ton goods van (12'3").

 

First, a mock-up of the goods shed - it's out of proportion with the prototype - so ignore the overall shed and consider just the doorway.  The opening is 59x42mm (14'9"x10'6"), and the van is 75% inside the shed.

 

 

There is way too much space above the van, but I think the width could be narrower.  I believe that 40mm is a generally accepted opening for a single track in OO: I'm not sure where I got 42mm from as I made the mockup a while ago.

 

Next, the same with the opening down to 52x42mm.  52mm is 13', and below the maximum van height for either the GNSR or BR.

 

 

Finally, the same but with the van 75% outside the shed.

 

 

To my eye, this looks similar enough to the prototype image.

 

This is all just my opinion, and I'm just a beginner, so I am quite literally making it up.

 

[PaulG]

On the GERS website you will find scale drawings of both Walton-on-Naze and Southminster goods shed. 

 

You can download the Walton shed for £1 and Southminster which includes other buildings for £5. 

 

Go to the Sales tab and then Sales List.

 

Paul

[Wickham Green]

.......... and don't forget it won't ONLY be goods vans like that which'll need access : locomotives may well be banned because of the fire risk but the doorway is probably large enough to take one - which is probably taller than an LNER van and definitely taller than a GNSR goods van ..... but passenger vans might require access too. Width, wise there's probably space for 'yer-average-shunter' to squeeze past any vehicle parked in the doorway : maybe a little more on the left side if there's a loading bank inside accessed by steps.

[aardvark]

22 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

.......... and don't forget it won't ONLY be goods vans like that which'll need access : locomotives may well be banned because of the fire risk but the doorway is probably large enough to take one - which is probably taller than an LNER van and definitely taller than a GNSR goods van ..... but passenger vans might require access too. Width, wise there's probably space for 'yer-average-shunter' to squeeze past any vehicle parked in the doorway : maybe a little more on the left side if there's a loading bank inside accessed by steps.

 

Oddly enough, the maximum height for a GNSR railway wagon/van/carriage was also 13'6".

 

I doubt that the Banff would have housed carriages in the goods shed.  The station really only had a single shuttle service to Tillynaught and back, so the two carriages in service would not have had a reason to be anywhere else than the passenger platform.  Having said that, it would be worth checking, which is what I shall do.

 

Your second comment about 'yer-average-shunter' was a light-bulb moment.  As you see from the images, I don't think that there was space for him to squeeze past a van at that end of the shed.  However, I have been struggling with why it seemed that the rail doorway at the other end, which has a human door and is closer to the street, appeared to be wider - I thought I was doing something wrong in estimating the size from photos.  Your comment suggests that my error was in assuming that the two openings were identical.

 

Told you I was a beginner.