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42 ft pre-grouping turntable details


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I am looking for a nice clear photo or two of a pre-grouping turntable around 42 maybe 45 feet long, where I can confirm these details:

- FB or BH rail

- arrangement of the timbers holding the rails and forming the areas along the sides where people could walk

- arrangement of the hand rails (if any)

 

Ideally a Southern Railway location, but this is of quite minor importance. Just a photo of what they looked like, I suppose ideally in service rather than in preservation.

 

I understand, a 42 ft design was a standard product of Cowans Sheldon and these were installed across Great Britain. I am finding a dearth of illustrations in my bookshelves and on line, it is as though these weren't popular with photographers. If no photos, pointers to one or two books with photos would be great.

 

- Richard.

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There is a picture of the 45' turntable at Fairford in 1947  (not to be confused with the 55' one installed later) in Karau's Great Western Branch Line Termini Vol 1.  The decking obscures whether it is bullhead or flat bottom rail, though I suspect the former.

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52 minutes ago, eastglosmog said:

There is a picture of the 45' turntable at Fairford in 1947  (not to be confused with the 55' one installed later) in Karau's Great Western Branch Line Termini Vol 1.  The decking obscures whether it is bullhead or flat bottom rail, though I suspect the former.

 

I've found a technical drawing of a Cowans Sheldon turntable here:

https://www.tulliehouse.co.uk/objects/technical-drawing-2

 

Trying to scale the drawing from the track gauge, the length of the turntable seems to be 43 feet, I'll guess this is the 42 foot design.

 

Please ... not having a copy of Karau's book to hand, does the turntable at Fairford look anything like this drawing?

 

- Richard.

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Hi Richard

There is another photo of it in GWR London Division Engine Sheds (Hawkins and Reeve).  From the pair of photos, it appears it was very similar to that technical drawing, although there are definite detail differences.  There was an arm to move the turntable at each end (not just one end) and they are made of wood, not iron.  There is a walkway of longitudinal planks at about railhead level between the railings and the track on one side only. (Possible these were later additions during service.)  The cross timbers between the rails appear to be slightly raised (though not up to railhead level), unless it is flat bottom rail spiked to the cross timbers - photo is not clear enough to be certain.  No details of the frame can be seen, and doesn't seem to have those levers on quadrant plates at each end either (not sure what they are, locking mechanism, maybe).

As for its length, I'm only going by what it says in the books, I don't know how precise the measurement was!

Hope this helps

Alan

PS If you are looking for photos of the Fairford turntable, it was changed for a 55' one about 1948 - there are rather more photos of this later turntable than the earlier one and I have seen one photo from 1961 mislabeled as the 45' turntable!

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These two photos of the turntable at Leeds (Wellington) may help - I think this may be a 46 ft or 50 ft table. Apologies that the engines obscure the view:

 

366158917_DY1011AccidentonturntableatLeeds.jpg.c42fa2107b7f1043b78afc5cbda39c3c.jpg

 

394207789_DY1012AccidentonturntableatLeeds.jpg.34caf88244d2aaedbe1d3aee38d4648b.jpg

 

NRM DY 1011 and DY 1012,  released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

The turntable at Keighley is the Midland Railway 50 ft table from Garsdale. I have no idea how "authentic" its rails and deck are. In indoor locations and sometimes outside, the well would be entirely timbered over, which hides a multitude of sins. Here's one of the two 50 ft tables in Derby No. 4 shed, on 10 March 1910:

 

1386763833_DY9231DerbyNo.4shed.jpg.743345923e40c4df5164b7e4d43eb414.jpg

 

NRM DY 9231,  released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

 

Edited by Compound2632
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18 hours ago, micknich2003 said:

There are good drawings of a 50ft Cowans Sheldon turntable in the book "Servicing the North Eastern Railways Locomotives". Published by the North Eastern Railway Assoc, see their website.

Good morning, Mick.

 

I can't see that one listed? Pity, as it sounds interesting.

 

Should I go to Specsavers? (Other opticians are available...)

 

Cheers

Mark

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18 hours ago, burgundy said:

There were quite a lot of 42' turntables on the LB&SCR. I will have a look. Some were completely decked over so that the well was invisible. 

Best wishes 

Eric

After some searching, I found the following list of 42 foot turntables in the 1922 Working Timetable

Barnham Jnc, Battersea Wharf x 2, Epsom Downs, Epsom Town, Haywards Heath, Littlehampton, Pulborough and Seaford

A check through "Southern Sheds in Camera" or some of the Middleton Press series may produce photos.

Best wishes 

Eric

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

@burgundy, does the WTT also list which classes could (or couldn't) be turned on a 42 ft table? The 4-4-0s might be touch-and-go.

Cribbed from a thread earlier this year on turning tank locos.

 

The 1922 Working Time Table provides details of the turntables available on the Brighton (and this is after some fairly significant investment during WW1). 

H class locos (both types) required at least a 52' table, K class required a 50' table and classes B2x and B4 required a 45' table with extension bars. All other classes could turn on a 42' table.

There were still a fair number of 42' tables around the system, with larger tables at key locations - particularly reflecting development during the war.

60' Brighton x2, Eastbourne, Newhaven, Three Bridges, Victoria

55' Bognor, Coulsdon, Guildford, New Cross, Portsmouth

52' West Worthing 

50' Battersea Wharf, Fratton, New Cross, Portsmouth, St Leonards, 

45 with extension gear Chichester, Eastbourne, Hastings, Horsham, London Bridge, Tunbridge Wells

45' Lewes, Singleton

42' Barnham Jnc, Battersea Wharf x 2, Epsom Downs, Epsom Town, Haywards Heath, Littlehampton, Pulborough, Seaford

On this basis, the big tanks (classes L, J and I) could operate throughout the system, although there were other constraints, not least the clearances in the SE&CR's tunnels between St Leonards and Hastings.

 

Hope this helps 

Best wishes 

Eric

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Likewise on the Midland, tables larger than 42 ft were provided at the major passenger centres, where the 4-4-0s and 4-2-2s had to be turned, but all the 0-6-0 and 2-4-0 engines could be turned on the 42 ft tables, which had been the default size since Kirtley's day.

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I will be happy with a 42 ft turntable.

 

I have purchased and downloaded a detailed drawing of a turntable from the Great Eastern Railway Society.

https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/files-emporium-home/lg032-turntable

 

This is for a 55 ft turntable designed and constructed by the GER at Stratford Works and used after 1903. A model based on this but shorter will be much easier for me to build than the Cowans Sheldon one because the timbers of the walkways are running along the turntable not across it. Also, the rail section will be hidden by the walkways and I can make a stronger assembly with FB rail.

 

Obviously this is fundamentally a GER design, but the general appearance matches up with what I think a British turntable can look like. So really, this drawing has answered my original questions well enough to make a start.

 

Thanks to everyone for the variety of suggestions and ideas :-)

 

For anyone reading this and pondering modelling solutions, I've just found a recent complementary thread here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/148676-small-turntable/

I have a Peco H0m turntable, and I'm hoping to adapt this (if this model seems rather small, this is for a 1:87 not 1:76 layout).

 

- Richard.

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11 hours ago, MarkC said:

Good morning, Mick.

 

I can't see that one listed? Pity, as it sounds interesting.

 

Should I go to Specsavers? (Other opticians are available...)

 

Cheers

Mark

 

I think it's out of print, but I did find copies advertised online e.g. Amazon.

 

- Richard.

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  • 2 weeks later...

There are photos of Cowans Sheldon turntables in the book "Carlisle's Crane Makers - The Cowans Sheldon Story" by Alan Earnshaw, published by Nostalgia Road. On page 49 an LMS 45' table and an ex-SECR one at Chatham, length not stated but a Maunsell L1 only just fits. The Chatham table has bullhead rail in chairs, on a very shallow well type, with transverse deck timbers.

 

Regards

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There's a nicely detailed drawing of a 40' turntable in Alan Prior's 19th Century Railway Drawings. It is dated as c1850 and built by Lloyds, Foster & Co. I think it is probably better to take one of the older designs, and if necessary, lengthen it, rather than to shorten and back-date a later and bigger one.

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Thr Peco TT is supposed to be modelled on the Yeovil one - apparently - although one or two details differ from the Cowans Sheldon and looks a somewhat similar Well type.  Keep scrolling down as there are lots of good shots, including the power unit for turning it.

 

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/yeovil-railway-centre.html

 

or Google Yeovil Station Turntable, then select "Images", for loads more pictures

 

Regards

Julian

 

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  • 1 year later...
On 21/11/2019 at 20:59, 47137 said:

 

I think it's out of print, but I did find copies advertised online e.g. Amazon.

 

- Richard.

@47137 @micknich2003 @MarkC and for anyone else interested: NERA have now made "Servicing the North Eastern Railway's locomotives" available as an eBook for £5. https://ner.org.uk/product/servicing-the-north-eastern-railways-locomotives-ebook-new/

Edited by Nick Lawson
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