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Maygib Midland/LMS 0-6-0 3F Tender Loco


ianLMS
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My next project I have just started is a Maygib Midland 3F tender loco kit, picked up recently from Ebay. Came complete with motor and wheels etc. This will be my very first attempt at using sprung hornblocks which came in the kit. The horns are plastic and the axle blocks are brass with minute springs and screws. 

 

I have glued the horns to the chassis per the directions and fettled the axle blocks with a file so they are a loose fit. Everything felt/looked good until I put the frames on my Poppy jig and everything tightened up.  I have yet to add the coupling rods so it might not be fully aligned. However, I cant see it making a whole lot of difference to the tightness of the blocks.

 

Questions;

1. By fettling the blocks with a file, have I messed up the squaring? or;

2. Do I need to fettle some more to make them an even looser fit? or fettle the horns instead? or;

3. Are the horns not glued perfectly square throwing out the alignment when placed in the jig?

 

I have all brass hornblocks in my spares box, so all is not lost if the recommendation is to bin the plastic horns, clean up the residual mess and install the all brass ones.

 

As ever, any advice from the far more experienced ones in this world is greatly appreciated. 

 

Ian

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The lack of response has suprised me a little, as RMWeb has usually been a great source of inspiration, advice, constructive criticism and banter. 

 

Not to worry though.  I carried on regardless, but I have unfortunately tried and failed at using the Maygib plastic hornblocks/brass axle bearings. For some reason (probably my hamfistedness), one of the axles ended up on the skew, resulting in a tight spot which could not be remedied by opening up the holes on the coupling rods, or tweaking the quartering etc.

 

The chassis can only be used with sprung hornblocks, and I have a feeling that when I opened up the spaces to fit the plastic hornblock I went slightly too far on one side resulting in the less than square axle. 

 

 

Option 1 - I have some MJT hornblocks in the spares box but I am unsure if its worth using them, only to find the same problem.

Option 2 - Find a new chassis and start again.

 

To assist with choosing which option, can anyone suggest a suitable 3F fixed hole chassis I can still find, or will an Alan Gibson 4F mainframe, Comet 4F chassis or SE Fiencast chassis work with the 3F? I see they are the same axle spacing (8' 0" + 8'6") and use the same wheel size but height of the mainframe might be slightly different. 

 

Thank you

Ian 

 

 

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4F frame kit should work for the 3F, as you say you might have to take some off the top edge. The SEF kit is fairly foolproof.

If you really want to use hornblocks I would strongly recommend the High Level ones (although they won't fit the cutouts in your 3F frames) and the Poppy's jig is very useful to set them and check with the coupling rods.

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Thank you Michael. I built the SE Finecast 4F not too long ago so I will dig it out tonight and compare the heights. My track is pretty level and don't usually have any issues with pick up so sprung hornblocks aren't essential, but was looking at enhancing my kit-building skills and giving myself a new challenge. 

 

I have just noticed that Alan Gibson make a set of 3F mainframes to be used with their honblocks. I might give that a go as well.

 

Thanks

Ian

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20 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

The lack of response has suprised me a little, as RMWeb has usually been a great source of inspiration, advice, constructive criticism and banter. 

 

Not to worry though.  I carried on regardless, but I have unfortunately tried and failed at using the Maygib plastic hornblocks/brass axle bearings. For some reason (probably my hamfistedness), one of the axles ended up on the skew, resulting in a tight spot which could not be remedied by opening up the holes on the coupling rods, or tweaking the quartering etc.

 

The chassis can only be used with sprung hornblocks, and I have a feeling that when I opened up the spaces to fit the plastic hornblock I went slightly too far on one side resulting in the less than square axle. 

 

 

Option 1 - I have some MJT hornblocks in the spares box but I am unsure if its worth using them, only to find the same problem.

Option 2 - Find a new chassis and start again.

 

To assist with choosing which option, can anyone suggest a suitable 3F fixed hole chassis I can still find, or will an Alan Gibson 4F mainframe, Comet 4F chassis or SE Fiencast chassis work with the 3F? I see they are the same axle spacing (8' 0" + 8'6") and use the same wheel size but height of the mainframe might be slightly different. 

 

Thank you

Ian 

 

 

 

Iam

 

I missed the first post and also having issues with sprung hornblocks, in my case Gibson and I used a Hobby Holliday's master chassis. I have both a Maygib Pannier chassis and a 6'6 x 6'6 tender chassis to build. I think somewhere I have blanking plates, though with the tender providing the wheels run freely it makes no odds whether its spot on square. In fact this thread has reminded me I have this chassis and I need one of the same wheelbase to convert a wills Q class to EM gauge

 

One option may be to use either the MJT or Perseverance etched hornguides and make it compensated rather than sprung

 

Comet Coaches do both a 3F and 4F chassis kits which may be and easier fit to your body as the Southeastern Finecast was designed as a Hornby replacement chassis

 

 

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1 minute ago, hayfield said:

 

Comet Coaches do both a 3F and 4F chassis kits which may be and easier fit to your body as the Southeastern Finecast was designed as a Hornby replacement chassis

 

 

 

Thank you hayfield. I looked at Comet but they only show a 4F or a 3F 0-6-0T Jinty chassis kit. I couldn't find a 3F 0-6-0 one.

 

SE Finecast chassis were also made to fit their own loco body kits, and might work with the Maygib body. Will see how my SE Finceast 4F chassis works with the 3F body I am building and I can compare it to the Maygib chassis.

 

I may also buy the Alan Gibson mainframe for the 3F and attempt the sprung hornblocks again. I do enjoy a good challenge!

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Did you set the wheel base using the coupling rods?

Also did you ensure the two sides exactly lined up with each other using an engineers square?

London Road Models make a nice set of three axle jigs with tapered ends.

 

I tried the Hobby Holidays jig and could not get on with it. I use an Avonside jig which I find a lot better, or a square assembly jig made of plywood using axle jigs.

 

Gordon A

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I used a Poppy's jig with the coupling rods to set them, however, I probably didnt ensure everything was square before glueing them in place.  It was after I put the wheel axles in I noticed the centre axle was off.

 

I will put this down to part of the learning process and will try again with an Alan Gibson mainframe or revert to a fixed axle SE Finecast chassis if that fails.

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41 minutes ago, ianLMS said:

I used a Poppy's jig with the coupling rods to set them, however, I probably didnt ensure everything was square before glueing them in place.  It was after I put the wheel axles in I noticed the centre axle was off.

 

I will put this down to part of the learning process and will try again with an Alan Gibson mainframe or revert to a fixed axle SE Finecast chassis if that fails.

 

I would strongly advocate, as does Tony Wright, a rigid chassis.

 

I've never been able to get reliable running with 'floppy' chassis, whereas rigid chassis seem always to run smoothly for me, at least.

 

A Comet 4F chassis should be fine for your 3F.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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Oddly enough my experience has been precisely the opposite, although I would point out that a floppy chassis won't work whether the builder intended it to be rigid or compensated. 

The Comet way of building a chassis, whether rigid or compensated, is nice and simple, but do buy the chassis jigs as well.

Cheers

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I would advocate a sprung chassis.  RTR chassis are not rigid, they have built in slop - which in itself acts as a form of compensation.  Rigid etched chassis are rigid...  Aside from road holding, which is a moot point if necessary in 00, is useful for pickups if all the wheels are in contact with the rails.

 

By the sounds of it the original issue here was the hornblocks. All kits I've ever been aware of allow 6mm cutouts, but for some reason Exactoscale (and possibly a couple of others) went for 5mm hornblocks.  So trying again with different hornblocks (Comet or High Level) sounds like a good idea.

 

I also prefer all axles to drop out. It makes painting, and maintenance, far more straight forward - and taking the wheels on and off the axles repeatedly brings in its own set of issues...

 

Just my 2p worth.

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Ian, i have never bothered to compensate chassis unless i am building a Judith Edge kit as Mikes system of compensation works..well it does for me!

I have acquired a couple of sprung 3/4F chassis over the years. One says Kemilway on it, i fear the other is a perseverance one.

They have far too much slop in them to work efficiently. Spring rates, like gravity, doesn't scale very well.

 

Nowt wrong with the Poppy jigs..could just be poor hornguides.

But, as your track is flat and you don't expect your locos to drive over a matchstick on the track try building it up with a rigid chassis.

Baz

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I'd like to see a picture of the chassis - is it possible to scrap the plastic bits, which sound awful, and re-fit the existing chassis with decent brass hornblocks, such as MJT, as advocated above?

I, too, would highly recommend the hornblock alignment jig axles from London Road. By setting the wheelbase to match the rods you know the chassis will work. If you build it in this way I can't see the purpose of any of the more complex chassis building jigs, which perhaps have a role if you are building a chassis rigid and therefore need it completely straight!

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Thank you all for your comments and advice. I measured the SE Finecast 4F chassis against the 3F one and there is a 2-3mm difference in height. . The bearings would need to be set at the highest point to give the same footplate height. Its possible the Comet 4F would be a similar height but without buying one i wouldnt know. I am  going to try the MJT hornblocks first and see if i can set it up square. If that fails i will get a new set of 3F mainframes and hornblocks from Alan Gibson. 

 

Thanks again.

Ian

Edited by ianLMS
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I have a Comet 4F chassis kit and will post a pic/measurements when I can. Have you considered compensation instead of springing? Simple to set up with any chassis/hornblock combination. And of course the P4 types are very excited about CSBs. No experience of these myself but they do sound a much better bet than individual coil springs.

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I agree that some form of flexibility in a chassis helps, although Peter Denny ran a perfectly succesful EM gauge system with v. heavy locos, I think his tracklaying was way better than many.  Getting round sharpish curves is easier with flexible chassis .

 

Never really got on with sprung hornblocks , now at 70 with rubbish eyesight and clumsy mitts I tend to throw the springs around a lot so dont even start from there,  went back to flexichas construction as the four locos I built years ago with that system still eork and go round  the dodgy bends.

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3 hours ago, Barclay said:

I'd like to see a picture of the chassis - is it possible to scrap the plastic bits, which sound awful, and re-fit the existing chassis with decent brass hornblocks, such as MJT, as advocated above?

I, too, would highly recommend the hornblock alignment jig axles from London Road. By setting the wheelbase to match the rods you know the chassis will work. If you build it in this way I can't see the purpose of any of the more complex chassis building jigs, which perhaps have a role if you are building a chassis rigid and therefore need it completely straight!

 

you can use the rods to set the hornbloxes in a Poppys jig. And for the price they are well worth it.

Baz

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The problem with Poppies jigs is that having just one doesn't cover all the options. This is why I use the Comet/Wizard tool although if you use this you also have to use the Comet/Wizard frame spacers. 

I agree wholeheartedly with the recommendation of the LRM jigs but I found that they needed polishing down so they would fit into the hornblock holes. Once that was done they were fine.

Cheers

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2 hours ago, Barclay said:

I have a Comet 4F chassis kit and will post a pic/measurements when I can. Have you considered compensation instead of springing? Simple to set up with any chassis/hornblock combination. And of course the P4 types are very excited about CSBs. No experience of these myself but they do sound a much better bet than individual coil springs.

 

I have been told the MJT hornblocks are for compensation, they come with 1 set of fixed for 1/8 top hat bearings and 3 sets for compensation (in you case only use 2. Fixed axle at one end and a compensating  beam in between. (I may have a set of Perseverance instructions I can scan if needed) 

2 hours ago, robert17649 said:

I agree that some form of flexibility in a chassis helps, although Peter Denny ran a perfectly succesful EM gauge system with v. heavy locos, I think his tracklaying was way better than many.  Getting round sharpish curves is easier with flexible chassis .

 

Never really got on with sprung hornblocks , now at 70 with rubbish eyesight and clumsy mitts I tend to throw the springs around a lot so dont even start from there,  went back to flexichas construction as the four locos I built years ago with that system still eork and go round  the dodgy bends.

 

52 minutes ago, Barry O said:

 

you can use the rods to set the hornbloxes in a Poppys jig. And for the price they are well worth it.

Baz

 

I built my first compensated chassis in the days prior to jigs, I used the Perseverance hornblock alignment jigs (as now supplied by London Road Models as well as others) I think Poppys jig works on the same basis, using the coupling rods to align the hornblocks 

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I read the MJT instructions online this morning and they are for a compensating set up. Either way its still something to try out. Worst case, It will cost me £30 for a new chassis from Comet or mainframe and hornblocks from Alan Gibson! But what price can you put on the experience I am learning from trying!

 

Ian

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On 03/12/2019 at 10:27, ianLMS said:

The lack of response has suprised me a little, as RMWeb has usually been a great source of inspiration, advice, constructive criticism and banter. 

 

Not to worry though.  I carried on regardless, but I have unfortunately tried and failed at using the Maygib plastic hornblocks/brass axle bearings. For some reason (probably my hamfistedness), one of the axles ended up on the skew, resulting in a tight spot which could not be remedied by opening up the holes on the coupling rods, or tweaking the quartering etc.

 

The chassis can only be used with sprung hornblocks, and I have a feeling that when I opened up the spaces to fit the plastic hornblock I went slightly too far on one side resulting in the less than square axle. 

 

 

Option 1 - I have some MJT hornblocks in the spares box but I am unsure if its worth using them, only to find the same problem.

Option 2 - Find a new chassis and start again.

 

To assist with choosing which option, can anyone suggest a suitable 3F fixed hole chassis I can still find, or will an Alan Gibson 4F mainframe, Comet 4F chassis or SE Fiencast chassis work with the 3F? I see they are the same axle spacing (8' 0" + 8'6") and use the same wheel size but height of the mainframe might be slightly different. 

 

Thank you

Ian 

 

 


Please forgive I have only just noticed this thread. When the Maygib/Gibson plastic hornblocks first arrived I used some and found that the mouldings were off-centre, one locating leg being bigger than the other. This I reported in the Scalefour news at the time, (late ‘70’s/early ‘80’s IIRC), the workaround being to file the moulding or the slot. Otherwise all the axles ended up at a slant in the chassis. This is what you may have encountered with those you have used. It’s not at all helpful. 
 

Although I have used sprung chassis of my own design and manufacture since those times in a variety of scales using both springs and wire I would suggest that, unless you are using P4 profile wheelsets (and mostly even then), a simple compensated chassis using one fixed driven axle for  the gearbox/ gear wheel etc, and twin side beams/ downward springing for the others is all you need. It can still be arranged so all the axles drop out, as has already been said much better all round for building in the long run. Simple homemade design and construction is quite sufficient. An etched chassis such as those by comet are a good starting point.
 

Izzy

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33 minutes ago, Barclay said:

Hi here's the Comet 4F chassis. Dimension from top of hornblock cutout to the top line of the frames is 2.5mm.

 

Just to note that that isn't the current Comet 4F frame.  It now has the sides of the hornguide area fully etched through, and an etched spigot at the top for the Comet/Brassmasters style of sprung hornblock. (as in this style: www.cometmodels.co.uk/modules/viewcatpic.php/2/966)

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