Maygib Midland/LMS 0-6-0 3F Tender Loco

[Steamport Southport]

To be honest I was just wondering if there is an alternative to Carr's or there was something better on the market, as you have to pay something like £10 postage for it from Phoenix and it's not cheap to begin with. It's rare that I can get to exhibitions so buying them at one is a difficult, besides most are just full of RTR box shifters. The stuff I do have must be getting on for being over 20 years old so I wanted something fresh.

 

Mention of Phosphoric Acid suggests something like this. So I'll get some over the next week or two to try.

 

https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=865&name=liquid-flux-9-phosphoric-acid&Itemid=189&category_pathway=1124

 

Thanks everyone! 

 

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

Might be worth trying Precision if you have a supplier close to you. Or do you have any kit makers or model shops close who sell similar products

 

London Road Models sold me Phosflux 6 for whitemetal , has a 6% solution  but I have found their 12% solution works just as well

Edited January 3, 2020 by hayfield

[Steamport Southport]

Not much in the way of local model shops I'm afraid. There are a few places that sell things like Humbrol which are a train journey away, but nowhere that sells things like loco kits and parts. I have to rely on the internet or mail order from adverts in magazines.

 

However when you look at Phoenix's terms and conditions for the courier service then it's very off putting.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/delivery#ship

 

That's why I was looking for an alternative. For their paints I buy them from Peters Spares who are easy to use. But the only flux they sell is Gaugemaster and DCC Concepts.

 

https://www.petersspares.com/index.jsp?searchStr=flux

 

 

 

Jason

[hayfield]

Jason

 

You must have a few decent shows during the year close where supplies can be obtained, or friends that go or show at them 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

To be honest I was just wondering if there is an alternative to Carr's or there was something better on the market, as you have to pay something like £10 postage for it from Phoenix and it's not cheap to begin with. It's rare that I can get to exhibitions so buying them at one is a difficult, besides most are just full of RTR box shifters. The stuff I do have must be getting on for being over 20 years old so I wanted something fresh.

 

Mention of Phosphoric Acid suggests something like this. So I'll get some over the next week or two to try.

 

https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=865&name=liquid-flux-9-phosphoric-acid&Itemid=189&category_pathway=1124

 

Thanks everyone! 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Just do a search on phosphoric acid on Ebay.

 

Buy the highest percentage that you can get and dilute it with water to around 12%.

 

Remember; add acid to water - not water to acid.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Michael Edge]

You can add water to phosphoric acid - nothing happens. 6% is extremely weak, 9% is commonly sold and will work on anything but steel. I also add a tiny drop of washing up liquid to make it "wetter".

[cctransuk]

54 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

You can add water to phosphoric acid - nothing happens. 6% is extremely weak, 9% is commonly sold and will work on anything but steel. I also add a tiny drop of washing up liquid to make it "wetter".

 

Mike,

 

I bulk-buy 85% phosphoric acid via Ebay; (dead cheap, no delivery problems);  and dilute it to 12%.

 

As to dilution of acids, we used (I think) diluted hydrochloric acid flux in metalwork at school, and we were taught to dilute the acid by adding acid to water, NOT the other way round. As a failed O-level chemistry student, I repeated the metalwork rule in my ignorance; assuming that it would apply to all acids.

 

Our metalwork teacher was an ex-Army man, who insisted on the title 'Major'; if he gave you an instruction, you followed it to the letter !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

[Michael Edge]

I've been using phosphoric acid for more than 40 years, I think the original supply was something like that strength. By that time I was long enough out of school to have forgotten about the chemistry instructions so I put a small amount in a jar and added tap water drop by drop - and still do this. The acid is applied with a short length of .6mm brass wire (gets eaten away after a few months) bent at the end.

Originally I used the stuff neat with dire results from spilling a little on the carpet.... and once a bottle smashed on a concrete floor with spectacular results but mostly as I said it's very safe.

No metalwork in my very academic grammar school so I missed out on all that.

[polybear]

I'm told (Iain Rice?) that Coca-Cola can be used at a pinch.  Never tried it though...

[Michael Edge]

Coca-Cola does contain phosphoric acid but not much, there might be a lot of disadvantages as well...

[Worsdell forever]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

Coca-Cola does contain phosphoric acid but not much, there might be a lot of disadvantages as well...

 

I tried it once just to see, yes it has phosphoric acid, it also has lots of sugar that gums everything up so it didn't really work.

[PenrithBeacon]

3 hours ago, Worsdell forever said:

 

I tried it once just to see, yes it has phosphoric acid, it also has lots of sugar that gums everything up so it didn't really work.

Seriously?

[hayfield]

17 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Seriously?

 

 

I have heard this said about CoCa cola before and its properties for cleaning coins, but I guess as well as not being very efficient it would need a lot of cleaning afterwards

 

I think with many tools and things like solder and flux, you get what you pay for. Agreed cheaper alternatives will work and if not used that often perhaps a wise option 

 

I recently bought some Vallorbe files which I use quite a lot, vastly superior and longer lasting than some cheaper versions

Things like flux and solder for the average kit builder will last ages,  Whilst £7 a pot may seem steep it will last years (7p per kit) likewise decent solder at £7 a go may cost 20p or 30p a kit. Like tools buying them all at once costs a small fortune, buying the odd thing once a month is affordable for most.

 

As I said I solder quite a lot and have 2 25 watt Irons with a variety of tips and a big 80 watt. I now have a solder station and have a large range of differing tips. Next up will be buying some higher melting point solder next time I build a brass kit

 

But in the end like most I try and work within a budget, thinking is it something I need and if so how much use will I get from it, if the answer is little I may go for the cheaper alternative    

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 01/01/2020 at 10:18, Michael Edge said:

Referring to the comment about small irons to control the amount of solder used, anyone on here old enough to remember George Norton's exhibition demos will be familiar with his use of the biggest electric soldering iron I've ever seen to do the smallest and most delicate jobs (as far as I know it was the only iron he ever used and he worked in EM).

 

Hi Mike,

 

George achieved very clean work with his (IIRC) Solon 100 watt iron. Anyone else would probably have found it far too big to handle easily, but George had mastered it. We use to tell him he had invented "nuclear fusion soldering".

 

 

On 01/01/2020 at 13:56, hayfield said:

Might be worth Precision if you have a supplier close to you. Or do you have any kit makers or model shops close who sell similar products

 

London Road Models sold me Phosflux 6 for whitemetal , has a 6% solution  but I have found their 12% solution works just as well

 

LRM sell 6% for w/m as 12% can "blacken" white metal by reacting with any minor impurities. However, I only ever use 12% as I only whenever ever I solder white metal detail castings (I avoid it for loco kits).

[hayfield]

59 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 

Hi Mike,

 

George achieved very clean work with his (IIRC) Solon 100 watt iron. Anyone else would probably have found it far too big to handle easily, but George had mastered it. We use to tell him he had invented "nuclear fusion soldering".

 

 

 

LRM sell 6% for w/m as 12% can "blacken" white metal by reacting with any minor impurities. However, I only ever use 12% as I only whenever ever I solder white metal detail castings (I avoid it for loco kits).

 

 

I have also found London Road Models solder paint to be excellent, had a bottle for years that just needs a bit of extra flux now and again to regenerate, unlike another make which just set hard as iron

[Michael Edge]

The acid flux can discolour white metal but I don't see this as a problem, it's all going to be painted anyway. I haven't used solder paint for many years - I wasn't at all sure what the flux was in the one I was using.

Biggest change I made with soldering was to change to 62/s solder, this is the one with 2% silver - more expensive but the results are amazing and I won't go back the 60/40 I used to use.

[hayfield]

Michael

 

What make and melting point is it please

 

[Michael Edge]

Warton Metals, www.warton-metals.co.uk.

I get it from Hobby Holidays, RS sell it as well. I think the melting point is 179 - a little below 60/40 but this isn't significant, what is different is the way it flows into joints. 

[cctransuk]

4 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Warton Metals, www.warton-metals.co.uk.

I get it from Hobby Holidays, RS sell it as well. I think the melting point is 179 - a little below 60/40 but this isn't significant, what is different is the way it flows into joints. 

 

Mike,

 

I'm sure that it is my incompetence, but I can't identify the 62/s solder to which you refer on either the Warton Metals, Hobby Holidays or RS websites.

 

Please could you provide product reference numbers or links? I really would like to try this 2% silver-bearing solder.

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Michael Edge]

I think it's the label on my reel - it looks like 62/s but might not be (this has caused some confusion before). If you look on Hobby Holidays website it's there as solder with 2% silver, melting point is 179 according to this, it comes in different wire gauges. A search for it on the RS website shows it as Sn62 but the 179 melting point is a clear marker whatever they call it.

[cctransuk]

14 minutes ago, Michael Edge said:

I think it's the label on my reel - it looks like 62/s but might not be (this has caused some confusion before). If you look on Hobby Holidays website it's there as solder with 2% silver, melting point is 179 according to this, it comes in different wire gauges. A search for it on the RS website shows it as Sn62 but the 179 melting point is a clear marker whatever they call it.

 

Michael,

 

Thanks for that - found it and duly ordered from Hobby Holidays.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[ianLMS]

 

The topic seems to have drifted off on some very interesting and educational discussion concerning flux and solder. So, the bring it back on topic i thought i would post a few pics of progress so far. I used the MJT hornblocks on the loco chassis and used the Maygib plastic ones in the tender as designed. Seems to be working ok. Compensating was a bit tricky and the weighting of the loco and tender was crucial for it to sit level and run properly.

All thats left now is numbering, lettering and weathering. I will add a proper coal load which will cover the liquid lead weight in the tender.

Edited January 27, 2020 by ianLMS

[ianLMS]

DCC chip fitted (Zimo MX623) in the tender and once I sorted an issue with the loco pick ups causing too much drag, it seems to run very nicely. I have fitted pick ups on the tender as well to help. Still got the decals to put on and weather it though. 

[ianLMS]