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sb67

Peco electrofrog points

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I've got a question, I'm sure it's been covered many time but if I don't modify my electrofrog points in any way they will be fine to use on both DC or DCC, the only potential problem being I am relying on the blade contact for electrical continuity. I also would not have a feed at the frog end of the point.

 

Many thanks.

Steve.

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Hi Steve,

 

It's precisely because you're relying on the blade contacts for electrical switching that you don't need to modify them at all.

 

You could feed the tracks beyond the frog end if you wanted - you'd just need some isolating joiners on the frog rails.

 

The above applies to both DC and DCC.

 

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As Phil above says, they work straight out of the packaging.

If you wish to use them like that make sure the thin frog wire cannot touch anything else (maybe insulate it), or if you are sure you will never use it, cut it back.

You reason you have to use insulated joiners is if the tracks that the point feeds can get a supply from elsewhere, intentionally or accidentally. That could cause a short.

 

The reason many use extra connections is that the blade contacts can deteriorate over time.

 

Edit missed words

Edited by melmerby
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Peco Electrofrog points work straight from the box whether on DC or DCC.  As stated by Harlequin fitting Insulted Rail Joiners (IRJs) to both of the points vee rail ends and then adding feeds after the IRJs is considered the best option. But if the point feeds into a dead end siding with no other feeds on the rails of that siding then the IRJ on the vee rail for that direction are not needed as the electrofrog point will self isolate that unset direction. However, on DCC that would mean no lights, sound or movements could take place.  

Note; The Peco electrofrog three way point and best practice on the slips - double or single slip need frog polarity switching to be fitted.  How this is achieved is up to the layout builder. Point motor operated switch, Manual switch, Latching relay operated via a solenoid motors feed pulse or on DCC an electronic auto frog polarity device can be used.

 

Edit Typo corrected

Edited by Brian
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If you're relying on blade contact just be careful when you weather the track Steve ;)

 

I wired my points so I could be slapdash with the airbrush :lol:

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The other issue that you can encounter, particularly on dcc, where the short circuit protection can be very aggressive , is that Wheels running through the toe , short the open switch blade to the adjacent stock rail , which in an  unmodified point is of opposite polarity to the open switch rail  

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That's confirmed what I thought. I'm only ever using short wheelbase stock so I'd hope shorting would not be an issue. As it's hard work modifying the y point I might leave that alone and if I can rig something up may use a switch on the right hand point. I was hoping to use wire in the tube but I have to carry the wire 90 degrees as there's not a lot of room at the front of the board for a switch.

 

Many thanks guys.

 

Steve.

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One more thing.

 

Peco has changed the design, though not the geometry, of their points over time.  If you use them straight from the box / pack then this is of no real importance though you might notice that some have tiny plastic bosses in the blades while others do not.  It only matters when you start frog switching; on some you will need to clip two tiny wires beneath the blade to switch frog polarity by any means other than the lie of the blades.  

 

When using electrofrog points at the approach to a dead end they will appear to self-isolate in the manner of an insulfrog point but in fact there is a difference.  For the route not set Insulfrog points will have one rail with no current at all because it is insulated at the plastic frog.  Electrofrog points will have both rails with the same charge (positive or negative) meaning there is no potential and nothing can move on those tracks.  The effect is the same but the cause is different.  

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One way to alleviate the shorting between stock rail and blade for unmodified points is to ensure that wheel back to backs aren't too narrow.

 

As others have said, making the points "DCC friendly" is a misnomer - it's making them more electrically friendly. Regardless of power supply (unless you use three-rail!)

It's just that the short is more apparent on DCC due to the greater sensitivity of the overload protection when compared to DC.

I had a Hornby 142 that incessantly tripped out a DC controller at slow speed until I widened the back to back setting.

Since then, I've always modified points. DC or DCC

 

 

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7 minutes ago, hobbyhorse said:

 

I can see you have accounted for the butterfly connectors too.

I never had a problem with these but I am mindful that they can be a weak spot.

 

Until a fortnight ago..

A friend had an issue with these on his exhibition layout. A drop of electrolube helped temporarily but it did not last long.

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On 20/11/2019 at 17:44, sb67 said:

That's confirmed what I thought. I'm only ever using short wheelbase stock so I'd hope shorting would not be an issue. As it's hard work modifying the y point I might leave that alone and if I can rig something up may use a switch on the right hand point. I was hoping to use wire in the tube but I have to carry the wire 90 degrees as there's not a lot of room at the front of the board for a switch.

 

Many thanks guys.

 

Steve.

 

Steve

 

I'm not saying this is the right way but this is how I modified the code 100 Y point

 

I cut the wires (shown in yellow) on the underside at one end (represented by the red line) and twisted them together and soldered on a wire to power the frog

 

Doing this automatically isolates the frog on code 100 Y points due to the plastic before the frog (circled)

 

Removed the plastic between the sleepers (arrowed in red) and soldered bridging wires across (shown in green)

 

May not be the correct way but it works

 

Chris

 

 

Y POINT MOD.JPG

 

Edited by chuffinghell
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40 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

I can see you have accounted for the butterfly connectors too.

I never had a problem with these but I am mindful that they can be a weak spot.

 

Until a fortnight ago..

A friend had an issue with these on his exhibition layout. A drop of electrolube helped temporarily but it did not last long.

As all the Peco point are in a hidden storage sidings, I didn't want any issues. I've used this the mod on many layouts over the years and no problems at all.

 

Simon

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It should be pointed out that some of these mods relate specifically to the older Code 100 turnouts.

 

(Most) Code 75 turnouts already have the insulating gaps in the closure rails with small bonding wires underneath to be cut and gaps already left in the webbing to solder on the new bonding wires.

 

Edited by Harlequin
Added the "most" qualification...
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21 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

It should be pointed out that some of these mods relate specifically to the older Code 100 turnouts.

 

Code 75 turnouts already have the insulating gaps in the closure rails with small bonding wires underneath to be cut and gaps already left in the webbing to solder on the new bonding wires.

 

 

That's a good point (no pun intended) most of the later code 100 points are as Phil describes above too but the code 100 short Y point remains the same as it's always been

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The "Mod" on Electrofrog points is an excellent option to remove all reliability of stock rail to switch rail connection becoming poor (HR), it also makes the open switch rail the same polarity as the adjacent stock rail preventing possible shorts occurring as wider or not to gauge metal wheel pass through the gap and is able to touch the inside faces of both stock rail and switch rail..  However,  it needs pointing out that the "Mod" should only be carried out where some form of frog polarity switching is used.  It cannot be used without frog switching, as the closure rails to frog to Vee rail ends would be electrically dead. 

Peco are slowly (very slowly!) producing Unifrog points which offer all the best options of bonding etc all fitted from the factory.

Edited by Brian
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Thanks Chris, I've got a code 75 Y point, the same type that Hobbyhorse showed in his photo where there is no insulation before the frog. 

 

 

Hobbyhorse - That's some neat work, I'd never have thought of soldering to he underside of the blades.  I have done exactly that mod once before, but not having a decent, small soldering iron bit, it was a bit messy! I've stuck the point down now but kept the wire to the frog on there. If it plays up I could always retro do it. 

Need a good soldering iron on my xmas list! 

 

Steve

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3 minutes ago, sb67 said:

Thanks Chris, I've got a code 75 Y point, the same type that Hobbyhorse showed in his photo where there is no insulation before the frog.

 

Sorry Steve,

 

I should have asked what type you were referring too first :rolleyes:

 

Chris

 

 

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There are a lot of subtle variations across the Peco OO/HO range, aren't there!

No wonder peopole find this all so confusing. Roll-on Unifrog, I say!

 

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I had heard that Y points were still using the older tooling but this is not static.

As the tooling wears, they could be updated to the newer style, or may even skip that completely in favour of Unifrog.

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Unifrog or not there would still be a supply of older versions on sale for quite some time to come.  You don't have to look too hard to find the older style of Code 100 today though perhaps not at the larger retailers with quicker turnover of stock.  

 

Question - is packaging a reliable guide to the design inside?  By which I mean can one use the difference between blue box and blister pack to equate with older and newer styles of contents?

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1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I had heard that Y points were still using the older tooling but this is not static.

As the tooling wears, they could be updated to the newer style, or may even skip that completely in favour of Unifrog.

Are there any unifrog code 75 & code 100 flat bottom points?

Edited by melmerby

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14 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Unifrog or not there would still be a supply of older versions on sale for quite some time to come.  You don't have to look too hard to find the older style of Code 100 today though perhaps not at the larger retailers with quicker turnover of stock.  

 

Question - is packaging a reliable guide to the design inside?  By which I mean can one use the difference between blue box and blister pack to equate with older and newer styles of contents?

If a retailer has old stock that won't sell, is Peco obligated to take back the stock and replace with a current design?

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17 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Are there any unifrog code 75 & code 100 flat bottom points?

I don't think so. It seems a logical progression though.

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24 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 Question - is packaging a reliable guide to the design inside?  By which I mean can one use the difference between blue box and blister pack to equate with older and newer styles of contents?

I have two recently bought code 100 large Y turnouts in blister packs and they are the old style unmodified type.

 

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