West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[mdvle]

First, while searching for more information on the 2 lines came across a current page about the South Devon Railway, there are currently at 50 paid employees (combined full and part time) and they are a registered educational charity.  They also apparently were going to do a Golden Jubilee Share issue to raise funds for a new locomotive shed, improve facilities, rolling stock overhaul shed, overhauling locos and upgrading the track.

 

As for the personalities of the two, even when I was in Paignton the two were very different but I suspect it is largely driven by that old saying "Location, Location, Location".

 

The Dartmouth Steam Railway benefits from being between 2 tourist centres (Torbay & Dartmouth), built to mainline standards so they essentially can run anything, and with a convenient connection to the national network (and being on the non-rest-of-country side of the Dawlish sea wall) which means they are an attractive end point for mainline steam tours, thus bringing in revenue.

 

But those 2 tourist centres, the right-next-to-mainline-railway station, being in the middle of Paignton, and more recently Agatha Christie, all mean that the Dartmouth Steam Railway becomes more of a day out even for those not particularly interested in steam trains.  This more of an operating real railway is reflected in how it operates, including the naming of locos that didn't previously have names even back in the 80s to the more current naming of carriages.  The fact that you add in river scenery, coastal scenery, a tunnel, 3 viaducts all just creates what is a well rounded experience with a good steam train experience (though not "authentic") and good destinations to make it a day out.

 

The Dart Valley line on the other hand, in the 80s was more of a slow, minimalist affair that really I assume relied on volunteers to survive.  Yes, it has a nice trip down a meandering river, but neither of its end stations are "convenient" in the sense that there is nothing else within walking distance to really do at either of them.  In other words, you specifically have to want to go for the steam train trip (which isn't bad, but limits your market).  So they have gone for more of a authentic GWR branch line feeling I assume in the decades since I was in the area.

 

While I can't find anything online about why the 2 lines ended up splitting, I would suspect the tensions between the two different styles of operation were part of it.

[kevinlms]

23 hours ago, fezza said:

I am afraid you are right and the WSR is not the only one. I have heard appalling statements in private about volunteers from senior employees. Employees need reminding they are only hired hands that are there to serve the wider  heritage railway community - and not the other way around. 

In a club here in Oz of which I'm a member (nothing to do with railways), a call went up for volunteers at short notice.

A friend of mine duly volunteered (the only one to do so on this particular day). She was there for 5 hours and her sole task was a single phone call, of about 3 minutes duration. Meanwhile the paid office manager, ran around like a headless chook all day. My friend asked several times, what she could do to help and got rudely told 'I'll find you something to do, when I have a minute'.

Never happened, so will she volunteer again? Clearly not as the office manager, was only interested in making herself look indispensable.

[The Johnster]

On 24/11/2019 at 16:25, AlexHolt said:

only breaking even from donations from people who had passed away. That is in no way a sustainable business practice.

The Mafia have been sustaining business in exactly that way for years, even assisting some of the donors to pass away...

 

On 24/11/2019 at 18:19, Steamport Southport said:

 

Didn't Alan Garraway run the Festiniog* along those lines? In that you may be a volunteer and amateur, but you're working on a proper railway and you should conduct yourself like one.

He did, and he was not a professional railwayman, though he had a highly professional attitude.  He was a regular driver, 'Linda' being regarded as 'his' loco, and in this way kept in close touch with what was going on trackside; no ivory towers manager, he, but a leader, in the best meaning of the word.  I volunteered on the FR in his day and found it a very rewarding experience from which I learned a very great deal, at the same time as having huge amounts of fun!  There were matters that I did not see eye to eye with him on, and he was a bit 'old school' for my hippie taste, but he deserved my respect, and had it.

 

Later in life I had a few sessions on the Severn Valley, which has had more than it's share of top level management upsets, but found that equally rewarding and fun; volunteers were able to be in charge of important and high profile jobs as well as having to clean smokeboxes and do car park.  I also have very pleasant memories of some quite casual helping out on the Dean Forest, a very friendly crowd of characters.

 

It bears, IMHO, on the rationale which 'informs' the railway's culture, both volunteer and managerial.  I've only ever visited the WSR, but note that it's original intention was to run a profitable and viable commercial public service with secondhand dmus which could back up the steam operations.  The idea was to take advantage of the appalling traffic on the A39 between Minehead and Taunton, but they got in a hopeless tangle with the NUR who had a vested interest in the competing bus service and the ownership of the trackbed by Taunton Cider at Norton Fitzwarren, as well as having to satisfy the local council's (their landlord) requirements and conditions.  Views are entrenched and passionately held by several incompatible parties who have all been frustrated in their intentions, and I am sure this has a bearing on the current unfortunate situation.  

[phil-b259]

On 24/11/2019 at 17:52, LBRJ said:

It may or may not be totally O/t but I have heard (from several people re: two very different "Heritage Lines") that many of the Volunteers were not overly keen on current or former Railway Staff joining their ranks - Along the lines of they will think it should be run like their railway.

I found that to be a particularly strange view point 'cos I thought that a railway is a railway, and best practice is always the type to aim for.

 

I did hear of one Guards inspector who much preferred non railway volunteers for the role of guard precisely because there was a tendency for ex BR guards to think they knew it all already and consequently had more ‘operational incidents’ than non-railway folk.

 

He said that although it might not sound like it there is actually a subtilely different skills set needed when dealing with a vac braked steam hauled train compared to an air braked fixed formation EMU and techniques based on the later might not be appropriate for the former.

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Mafia have been sustaining business in exactly that way for years, even assisting some of the donors to pass away...

 

He did, and he was not a professional railwayman, though he had a highly professional attitude.  He was a regular driver, 'Linda' being regarded as 'his' loco, and in this way kept in close touch with what was going on trackside; no ivory towers manager, he, but a leader, in the best meaning of the word.  I volunteered on the FR in his day and found it a very rewarding experience from which I learned a very great deal, at the same time as having huge amounts of fun!  There were matters that I did not see eye to eye with him on, and he was a bit 'old school' for my hippie taste, but he deserved my respect, and had it.

 

 

Just to correct a matter of historical fact Alan Garraway was very much a professional railwayman having not only been involved in railway engineering and operational management while in the army but subsequently working in various engineering and motive power operational roles on BR before joining the Festiniog on a full time basis. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think that we are beginning to see the endgame of a situation where we have, to be blunt, too many preservation projects. Simply not enough volunteers and money to go round all of them.

 

Potentially, the WSR should be one of the best. Good, touristy location. Good facilities. Nice scenery.

 

Like any business, they need to have clear focus on what they are wanting to do. If they are not going to run through services to connect with BR at Taunton (or Norton Fitzwarren), I can't see much point in running DMUs. But they do need some cheaper to operate trains for off-peak times, not the 4-6-0 plus seven coaches which seems to be their standard fare.

 

I worked for some years in the "third sector". Managing volunteers is a whole art in itself.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I think that we are beginning to see the endgame of a situation where we have, to be blunt, too many preservation projects. Simply not enough volunteers and money to go round all of them.

 

Potentially, the WSR should be one of the best. Good, touristy location. Good facilities. Nice scenery.

 

Like any business, they need to have clear focus on what they are wanting to do. If they are not going to run through services to connect with BR at Taunton (or Norton Fitzwarren), I can't see much point in running DMUs. But they do need some cheaper to operate trains for off-peak times, not the 4-6-0 plus seven coaches which seems to be their standard fare.

 

I worked for some years in the "third sector". Managing volunteers is a whole art in itself.

I agree, shorter trains would reduce maintenance, I notice the 2020 timetable is now out, quite a lot of 4 train days, then 6 leading up to 8 in the peak and some journeys now terminating at Williton.

 

The trains have tended to use a cycle of three locos -  the two Manors plus the 2-8-0 with 9351 coming into the fray once it was ready.  Diesels tend to come out to play at galas but the DMU does supplement the steam locos during normal timetables.

 

It's a difficult situation, the line needs steam locos as they certainly suit the structures and styling of the line, bigger locos are barred until the track work is back up to standard as are heavier diesels, a 37 being the biggest thing at the moment that is allow along the line.

 

Without knowing all the decisions that have led to the current position it is difficult to see how it fits into the bigger picture but I think you're correct that there will likely be some adjustment and contraction in the preservation market over the next ten years.

 

The question might be, how would NR and local government react to the line closing if it got that bad and the WSR could no longer operate - would there be a case to transfer back into the network as a long siding  or would it as feared become a cycle track?

[brianusa]

Size matters!  If you've got twenty miles of track, you've got twenty miles of real estate and infrastructure to contend with.  Most of the longer railways have similar problems and require a bigger number of employees  to take care of it all.  OTOH if you're seven mile line, your wage bill is smaller the volunteer requirements are less as is wear and tear on the locos and rolling stock.

The WSR has half a dozen stations to staff and maintain while the SDR has half that.  Also on some longer lines, passenger fatigue is apparent, kids get antsy and parents doze whereas most can take a half hour ride and enjoy it.  Bear in mind the times are doubled in the return journey if you have left the car at one end!   Enthusiasts may be able to enjoy the trip but its the mums and dads that pay the bills!  To its credit, the WSR is one of the most scenic in the country and with a mainline connection is able to host a variety of trains but there again, the SDR and others like it, are an attraction to be reckoned with!

     OTOH, the very small lines have a hard time, especially if they go from nowhere to nowhere; a destination or other attraction is important to encourage folks to ride.

     Brian.

[Ian J.]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

...

Without knowing all the decisions that have led to the current position it is difficult to see how it fits into the bigger picture but I think you're correct that there will likely be some adjustment and contraction in the preservation market over the next ten years.

 

The question might be, how would NR and local government react to the line closing if it got that bad and the WSR could no longer operate - would there be a case to transfer back into the network as a long siding  or would it as feared become a cycle track?

 

I would hope, with the various plotical parties talking up improving railways, that at worst any line with a connection to the national network that couldn't be kept running as a private concern would 'simply' be absorbed back into the national network (with the necessary upgrades to meet full normal standards of operation).

[brianusa]

5 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

 

I would hope, with the various plotical parties talking up improving railways, that at worst any line with a connection to the national network that couldn't be kept running as a private concern would 'simply' be absorbed back into the national network (with the necessary upgrades to meet full normal standards of operation).

'simply' be absorbed back into the national........Probably not that simple!

(with the necessary upgrades to meet full normal standards of operation)...............Probably too expensive!

   Hopefully some solution can be reached though as its too valuable to the local economy and tourism to fail!

   Brian.

[The Johnster]

The solution is, aside from the railway’s internal politics, to go back to the original intention of running a commercially viable commuter/main line connecting service into the up bay at Taunton, which means sorting out the tangle of issues that have so far prevented this, and paid full time staff will need to be employed to man and maintain these trains.   Now is a good time as class 142/143 stock is shortly to become available.  

 

The ‘Heritage/Tourist’ operation should not, IMHO, be part of that side of things, and is more suited to volunteer operation and maintenance/restoration work.  It would be unique in the uk, a completely independent commercial railway providing facilities and support to a Heritage operation. 

 

 

 

 

 

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The solution is, aside from the railway’s internal politics, to go back to the original intention of running a commercially viable commuter/main line connecting service into the up bay at Taunton, which means sorting out the tangle of issues that have so far prevented this, and paid full time staff will need to be employed to man and maintain these trains.   Now is a good time as class 142/143 stock is shortly to become available.  

 

Would the government allow them to use Pacers in a regular service (as opposed to a heritage operation)?

 

They might be better off going with say a Class 230, which would still be cheaper than anything else available with the added benefit of essentially being close to a new train with the increased reliability/lower maintenance than a 30+ year old Pacer.

[The Johnster]

230s would work as well.  If the railway is to compete for commuter traffic it must run at the best speed it can between Minehead and Taunton; I envisage all boxes switched out and a single train shuttling twice in the morning and twice in the evening, limited stop perhaps just Watchet and Norton Fitzwarren.  It should easily beat the bus, and be more comfortable, but the trick here is to stop people using private cars.  Connection to/from Bristol trains is vital and perhaps a through working could attempted.

[mdvle]

I agree that they should take a close look at running the commuter service, and perhaps some grants/subsidies might be available to help get the service started.

 

Further to the comment above that it may be coming to a point where all the heritage railways can't be supported, it does indicate that those that can should be looking at additional ways of generating much needed revenue.  If running a M-F commuter service can achieve that, then serious effort should be put into it.

[russ p]

One of the problems here is that they had improvement ordered served on them to bring the track up to standard for 25mph running.  If a commuter service was offered it would have to do 45 to 60 mph to be viable so the bill to upgrade track and signalling would be considerably higher , also I would think they would also have to install TPWS 

[The Stationmaster]

On 28/11/2019 at 01:28, The Johnster said:

The solution is, aside from the railway’s internal politics, to go back to the original intention of running a commercially viable commuter/main line connecting service into the up bay at Taunton, which means sorting out the tangle of issues that have so far prevented this, and paid full time staff will need to be employed to man and maintain these trains.   Now is a good time as class 142/143 stock is shortly to become available.  

 

The ‘Heritage/Tourist’ operation should not, IMHO, be part of that side of things, and is more suited to volunteer operation and maintenance/restoration work.  It would be unique in the uk, a completely independent commercial railway providing facilities and support to a Heritage operation. 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is that the infrastructure is not only not there to allow that but where it once was has had various structures built on it which would cost a very large amount of money to remove (definitely into six figures, and probably into seven figures - i.e. £1 million plus).  The originally announced intention of running a commuter service into Taunton was in some respects part of a con-trick with one rather shady character involved in promoting it.  There were also trade union objections from the NUR although when I was AM at Taunton I effectively bottomed that and got an assurance from the local branch that any objection from them would in fact have been withdrawn, possibly with a few 'guarantees' needed but nothing onerous (very handy when the Branch Secretary owes you a big favour ).  However back then the WSR was in no position to even open as far as Bishops Lydeard let alone get involved in what were, even then, some very large sums of money needed to get an independent line into Taunton.

 

As I see it now the best answer would be to do it the other way round and GWR, or somebody, to run a service from Taunton to Bishops Lydeard although it would still be constrained by infrastructure availability or rather the lack thereof.

20 hours ago, russ p said:

One of the problems here is that they had improvement ordered served on them to bring the track up to standard for 25mph running.  If a commuter service was offered it would have to do 45 to 60 mph to be viable so the bill to upgrade track and signalling would be considerably higher , also I would think they would also have to install TPWS 

I'm not sure if the actually had an improvement Order for the track but there were other things involving HMRI which are best not discussed in public.

 

You're spot on about speed, in fact the numbers you suggest are probably a bit low to be competitive although the parallel road is not good.  Some years back I was involved in some independent assessment work of another reopening proposal (not in former WR territory) and there the promoter was wholly realistic about what the reopened railway would be up against so he was proposing a 90mph line speed albeit with a few intermediate restrictions to lower speed.  And of course going for speeds in excess of 25mph takes you into rather different realms of safety matters.   Plus the inevitable situation where in order to get any sort of realistic intervals between trains the WSR would require signal boxes to be manned and opened - it is not in a Torbay & Dartmouth type of situation where only one person is needed to operate the signalling for the entire line whatever the density of service being run.

Edited November 29, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Correct typos

[russ p]

I don't think a commuter operation is feasible due to what mike is saying. 

As stated the road isn't great also you would really need full time staff to operate the trains to make sure that staff were available instead of relying on volunteers. 

The torbay and Dartmouth or whatever it's called this week is more of a theme park than a preserved railway although I did visit this year and they seemed to be a bit more heritage on show.

Mind the standard five with a chime whistle that was blown far too often and could be heard all over torbay was rather irritating 

[DCB]

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

I agree that they should take a close look at running the commuter service, and perhaps some grants/subsidies might be available to help get the service started.

 

Further to the comment above that it may be coming to a point where all the heritage railways can't be supported, it does indicate that those that can should be looking at additional ways of generating much needed revenue.  If running a M-F commuter service can achieve that, then serious effort should be put into it.

If you run a M-F commuter service 52 weeks per year There is now window for the winter shut down so when does any heavy maintenance get done?   

It may appear to make sense to run shorter formations but shunting with MK1 stock and buckeye couplers is heavy and potentially dangerous work especially for elderly volunteers.    I suspect the economics of using a large loco like a Hall  on 7 as against a 41xx probably balance out but to me its folly using a wide firebox pacific with 22 ton axleload on the line.  The small 9350 Mogul sounds perfect for the job.    Maybe they should build some more.

[mdvle]

Are there obstacles, yes.  The biggest of course is money, and realistically this (or any other heritage railway) only happens if one or both of local government and central government provide funding.  It is doubtful if the profit on a commuter operation would amount to much under the best of circumstances.

 

But if you can get those government capital funds and/or subsidies, then that takes a significant load off what the heritage side has to fund and find volunteers for.

 

And yes, it is a very big if.

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

If you run a M-F commuter service 52 weeks per year There is now window for the winter shut down so when does any heavy maintenance get done?   

It may appear to make sense to run shorter formations but shunting with MK1 stock and buckeye couplers is heavy and potentially dangerous work especially for elderly volunteers.    I suspect the economics of using a large loco like a Hall  on 7 as against a 41xx probably balance out but to me its folly using a wide firebox pacific with 22 ton axleload on the line.  The small 9350 Mogul sounds perfect for the job.    Maybe they should build some more.

You run the commuter service with commuter stock, and still have the winter shut down for your separate steam orientated heritage operation's heavy maintenance requirements.  The budget for the two separate but complimentary operations is separate as well, the commuter service being profit motivated and not in the hands of volunteers.  

 

The commuter service could possibly take the form of an existing TOC running over the WSR and the WSR being either paid a straight fee for this or a fare-sharing deal worked out.

[PenrithBeacon]

Is there any evidence that a commuter service from Minehead to the mainline or beyond would pay?

Cheers

[kevinlms]

15 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Is there any evidence that a commuter service from Minehead to the mainline or beyond would pay?

Cheers

Agreed, sums have to be created. Costs to actually get the would be service running, operating costs calculated and the revenue (which could and should include support from multiple tiers of government). Too bad that a grant, WOULD NOT be coming from the EU!!!!! Thanks Boris.

 

It CANNOT simply be a dream, or the existing loss, might well significantly increase and that would have dire consequences.

[PenrithBeacon]

Dreaming of spending money you haven't got is currently losing Labour the election

Cheers

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You run the commuter service with commuter stock, and still have the winter shut down for your separate steam orientated heritage operation's heavy maintenance requirements.  The budget for the two separate but complimentary operations is separate as well, the commuter service being profit motivated and not in the hands of volunteers.  

 

The commuter service could possibly take the form of an existing TOC running over the WSR and the WSR being either paid a straight fee for this or a fare-sharing deal worked out.

It's one heck of a job to relay track when trains are running over it!   The WSR is 20 miles long and if you assume a 20 year life for track, even if it is just rail changing and spot resleepering, you logically have to deal with one mile pera nnum to keep on top of things.  If you don't do that you finish up with problems - refer various earlier posts re the WSR's track.

 

If you run a commuter service at higher speeds on a line such as the WSR with lots of curvature and gradients the rate of rail wear will increase - hence a real need to get that one mile a year sorted.  And unless you employ contractors relaying using volunteer labour takes a lot of time - the sort of time you only get when there is a seasonal close down.  The steam heavy maintenance inevitably will never be confined to a shutdown period on most heritage/leisure lines because heavy overhauls take a year or more in the vast majority of cases due to shortages of labour and money.  Hence you need a loco fleet far larger than is needed to run the service and that in turn increases your maintenance costs and demands on labour - even with 7 year boiler tickets - and of course you also need to have it properly set up with proper records in place (about which I'll say no more in respect of the WSR).

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

Agreed, sums have to be created. Costs to actually get the would be service running, operating costs calculated and the revenue (which could and should include support from multiple tiers of government). Too bad that a grant, WOULD NOT be coming from the EU!!!!! Thanks Boris.

 

It CANNOT simply be a dream, or the existing loss, might well significantly increase and that would have dire consequences.

It isn't a particularly difficult task to get some broad brush estimates of the capital cost and it is relatively easy - but not necessarily cheap - to work out the running costs of any particular level of an everyday train service.  But if you were to run for say 12 hours a day (07.00 - 19.00) 6 days a week with two trains in operation you are going to be looking at an absolute minimum of 5 operating staff on duty at any one time on each operating day, plus relief to cover days off etc so you'll finish up with around 8-10 people as permanent employees, absolute minimum just to run the trains.   At say £25,000 per annum salary you'll be talking of the best part of £250,000 per annum before you add the overheads such as NI and paybill etc administration.

 

For that cost you haven't fuelled or maintained anything, in fact you haven't even got a train - all you have paid so far is the minimum number of people needed to run the trains and that will cost you just over £4,800 per week over a 52 week operating year.   Will there actually be that much revenue available in an area with a high percentage of car ownership running trains to a mainline connecting station (assuming there is line capacity to do so) in a town where said station is 'a good walk' from most likely passenger destinations.