West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, Gilbert said:

I assume a steam tour will be in difficulty if the loco can't get to the turn table at Minehead..although this tour seems to offer WSR haulage from BL and the tour loco will be turned at Norton Fitzwarren...anyway....(spot the man who knows nothing about running a real railway)...whatever happened to a man with a red flag...

The man with the Red Flag had it taken off him by the ORR - his top hat wasn't tall enough

[Gilbert]

38 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The man with the Red Flag had it taken off him by the ORR - his top hat wasn't tall enough

That would be for a reason..

 

[MarkC]

3 hours ago, Gilbert said:

I assume a steam tour will be in difficulty if the loco can't get to the turn table at Minehead..although this tour seems to offer WSR haulage from BL and the tour loco will be turned at Norton Fitzwarren...anyway....(spot the man who knows nothing about running a real railway)...whatever happened to a man with a red flag...

Correct - I'm booked on this one (rescheduled from last year), and the plan always was for the loco which brought us from London (was to be 6233, but is now 45596) comes off at BL & turns there, with WSR loco(s) taking us up the branch & back.

 

Mark

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Correct - I'm booked on this one (rescheduled from last year), and the plan always was for the loco which brought us from London (was to be 6233, but is now 45596) comes off at BL & turns there, with WSR loco(s) taking us up the branch & back.

 

Mark

So a big Lizzie down to a Jubilee, and you only get half way up the WSR.

 

What else have they cut down in size, is the five course lunch now a McDonalds?

[woodenhead]

20 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

That would be for a reason..

 

Which would be the final straw for an inauthentic 50s vibe on the WSR!!

 

"Come to the WSR, in 2022 we have loaned the APT-P from Crewe and it will be operating the shuttle service between Bishops Lydeard and Williton whilst we complete the wiring up to Minehead for our exciting 2024 season"

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

So a big Lizzie down to a Jubilee, and you only get half way up the WSR.

 

What else have they cut down in size, is the five course lunch now a McDonalds?

Gawd knows - problem is, we have accommodation booked in London and non-refundable tickets to/from London booked too.

 

Not good...

[Gilbert]

27 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Gawd knows - problem is, we have accommodation booked in London and non-refundable tickets to/from London booked too.

 

Not good...

To be fair you can almost see Dunster station from Minehead so Bus time should be minimal...I'm told Dunster and the Castle are actually decent destinations in themselves..may be worth doing a bit of pre-trip research.

[MarkC]

32 minutes ago, Gilbert said:

To be fair you can almost see Dunster station from Minehead so Bus time should be minimal...I'm told Dunster and the Castle are actually decent destinations in themselves..may be worth doing a bit of pre-trip research.

Oh, I'm sure we'll still have a good day out. As for the change of locomotive? It looks as though ours isn't the only trip now having Bahamas instead of the Duchess.

 

Mark

[KeithMacdonald]

29 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Oh, I'm sure we'll still have a good day out. As for the change of locomotive? It looks as though ours isn't the only trip now having Bahamas instead of the Duchess.

 

I have to confess when I first read that I though you said Bananas.

 

I must have spent too long looking at a Yellow Van topic elsewhere on RMWeb.

 

Did someone mention lunch?

[fezza]

2 hours ago, Gilbert said:

To be fair you can almost see Dunster station from Minehead so Bus time should be minimal...I'm told Dunster and the Castle are actually decent destinations in themselves..may be worth doing a bit of pre-trip research.

Dunster is a beautiful old village with a castle, a watermill and the lovely Gallox Bridge. There is also a beach a short walk from the station. 

 

What saddens about this saga is the WSR has some of the friendliest and passionate volunteers of any railway. I'm sure it will survive if the can rid themselves of the current management. 

[Gilbert]

8 minutes ago, fezza said:

What saddens about this saga is the WSR has some of the friendliest and passionate volunteers of any railway. I'm sure it will survive if the can rid themselves of the current management. 

You're right. A couple I know have moved house following retirement to take on a fairly full-on voluntary roles associated with one of the stations....I hope the railway survives.

[tomparryharry]

Personalities can make or break a business where  you require volunteers to 'make it work'. Some years ago, volunteers  would queue up to work on a locomotive grade; not any more. I've seen so many volunteers finish because of poor management abilities. 

 

One preserved railway had a significant financial grant.  People were coming out of the woodwork with 'I'm in charge'  attitude, and the average members  (working members )  side-lined. Naturally, the working members decided, by & large, to go elsewhere.   The funny thing is that the 'woodworm dwellers' disappeared with the last fiver..... Pleading with experienced ex-volunteers elicits the response:- " No fear!  Once bitten, twice shy!" 

 

Railway preservation is starting to tail off, as people get older, wiser, and natural wastage takes its toll.  Pragmatically,  I'll give it a generation, probably two,  before the curtain drops.  In fact, it might be sooner, if carbon emissions rules come into play. 

 

If you've got a million pound business, you need a management structure with a million pound plus calibre.   

[Mike Storey]

4 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Railway preservation is starting to tail off, as people get older, wiser, and natural wastage takes its toll.  Pragmatically,  I'll give it a generation, probably two,  before the curtain drops.  In fact, it might be sooner, if carbon emissions rules come into play. 

 

If you've got a million pound business, you need a management structure with a million pound plus calibre.   

 

Is it? I have no disagreement with the general sympathies of your post. But I have noticed (pre-Covid) an increase in both volunteer involvement and in local authority support of preserved railways.

 

I have no doubt there will be a decrease over time, in the extent of preserved railway operation, partly due to the expense in boiler certificate renewal, and in general levels of expertise available. There is a school of thought that preservation railways have more than peaked in the UK (compared to the general trend abroad) but that does not seem to have stopped a number of relatively new ones from further growth, such as the Southwold, the IOWSR, the Tyne Valley and such like.

 

But there is a marked increase in attempts to generate the expertise required, and in the number of firms available to manufacture, or otherwise provide for, the necessary locomotive and rolling stock  regeneration needed.

 

Thus, I am not so sure that the example of the WSR is to be taken as typical?

[TomJ]

To misquote the Bard

 

‘There is something rotten in the state of (West) Somerset’

[adb968008]

I’m just missing something is this just a squabble in the pond over one little empire versus another thats gotten out of hand ?

 

As for preservation peaked, I think the peak was inline with Heritage lottery grants moving to London 2012 funding from 2005. Prior to this several high profile projects were supported, followed by several white elephants. Post Olympics, the shenagins of WCRC haven't helped on the mainline, and preserved railways gained from mainline engines which “give up” the dream...

Mainline become commercial and less about preservation, the risk is groups where engines have given up on mainline, are more likely to see giving up on preserved lines too down the road given the sunken costs vs more limited future rewards.

 

its a shame about the July railtour, both 6233 and 45596 are true preserved engines, run by volunteer groups.. they are becoming a rare breed these days, and need support from the rarity of trips which are dominated by commercially owned / operated steam locomotives, which aren’t really “preserved” any more.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, Gilbert said:

That would be for a reason..

 

Surely that would an issue is his hat was too tall?

[Gilbert]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Surely that would an issue is his hat was too tall?

No - it was an early safety conundrum -if the hat was big enough to go with the red flag it was a catenary risk.........even Brunel couldn't crack that one...

[roythebus1]

Tomparryharry mentions the million £ business. I ran my own £1m almost single handed in the 1990s in the form of a vintage bus company which developed into something I never envisaged. It grew from the depression of the T*****r years of "loadsamoney", then got clobbered by the selling off of the railways (I was a major provider of rail replacement buses for Connex), and local council cuts in public transport. 

 

I was somewhat surprised to learn one of my local steam railways was only just turning over £1m in the mid 2000's, and has only recently achieved a turnover of nearly double that. But railway enthusiasts have an unlimited supply of rose-tinted glasses and want to preserve everything now, not tomorrow later, but NOW. This leads to all sorts of cash flow problems and needs good management to sort it out.

 

I volunteered he same local steam railway, being a former BR driver I thought my knowledge (albeit limited when it comes to steam locos) would be useful. But no, poor management with a degree of ambidextrous incoordination and some acidic comments from a one or two people put me off going back there. I met with volunteer coorindinators who told me that those making the acidic comments were those with vested interests in certain projects, essential people. But if they're deterring people like me from going there, so be it. I have better things to do.I don't mind railway banter, I've had years of it, but when comments are directed against someone in direct earshot that is something different.

 

I'd suggest there's a lot of this sort of thing that goes on with most preserved railway, and indeed most organisations regardless. I know someone who lives quite near the WSR and is a volunteer on there who also has connections with my local line but haven't met with that person for a while to discuss matters. It's a great shame that these organisations are steeped in internal politics.

[MarkC]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

its a shame about the July railtour, both 6233 and 45596 are true preserved engines, run by volunteer groups.. they are becoming a rare breed these days, and need support from the rarity of trips which are dominated by commercially owned / operated steam locomotives, which aren’t really “preserved” any more.

 

45596 is indeed a worthy alternative to 6233. It's a long time since I had the pleasure of 5XP haulage - 1976 with Leander, both ways on the Hope Valley as part of a Liverpool-Scarborough railtour. (92220 did York-Scarvegas & return).

 

Mark

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

It's a great shame that these organisations are steeped in internal politics.

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Michael Hodgson
duplicATION

[Michael Hodgson]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

Office politics backbiting etc is a pain in the backside in far too many companies, and of course you have to put up with it as it's your livelihood.  I had more than my fair share of that sort of c**p during my working life.  And if you are lucky enough to find a good boss or work in a place that has a decent atmosphere, people move on, and the situation may change when their replacements arrive.

 

Unfortunately a lot of voluntary organisations (model railways clubs, preserved railways, charities etc) are also commonly run by people with the same sort of mentality.  The difference is that the volunteers have the option of voting with their feet much more easily - so they do.  The same can apply to their customers of these organisations too and it impacts on their revenue.  I've not been back to Beamish since I encountered an officious little tw** in their car park years ago.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

Perhaps I should add that I've never had any problems at the WSR, their volunteers have been helpful & friendly, it's just a long way from here so not a place I often get he chance to visit.

[PenrithBeacon]

My experience was variable, but the negatives were down to the enmity that  many volunteers have to photographers.

Edited June 2, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[The Stationmaster]

12 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I’m just missing something is this just a squabble in the pond over one little empire versus another thats gotten out of hand ?

 

 

I don't think you're missing much (of what is in the public arena) but it is definitely a lot more than a squabble in the pond in this case.   Many preservation schemes/sites have over the years suffered from what might politely be termed 'differences of emphasis' between preservationist (in particular) volunteers and the reality of managing a complex business - and a heritage/leisure railway if properly run has to be a business in order to survive.  The whole business of 'managing' volunteers can be somewhat akin to herding cats and certainly getting the best out of them as part of a contributing labour force on a railway when they hav their own aims and ideas is not necessarily easy - play things even slightly wrong and there can be trouble.  

 

I know one very successful leisure railway where volunteers were long ago banned - 'because they were a confounded nuisance who only wanted to do what they wanted to do'.  The line's owners and manager make no bones at all about the fact that they are in the leisure business and that running steam hauled trains is a business decision to make their railway more attractive to certain markets they target.   But the guy who looks after their signals is very much an enthusiast for signals and is effectively a volunteer although the railway pay him for the work he does to keep the rail;way running - all other staff from tea room to train crew are paid employees.

 

Some volunteers have done so to get away from the modern everyday world so regard as bureaucracy the fact that if they are involved in safety critical work they have to provide a list of any prescription medicines they take even though that is a legal requirement.   It's the sort of thing which can create storms in tea cups.

 

Some railways and sites have been and are very successful at managing a mix of volunteer labour and profdfessionals  while some rely entirely on volunteers.  Some have been notably unsuccessful at managing the mix - that can sometimes be down to six of one side and half a dozen of the other.  But sometimes the fault is largely, if not completely, on one side and if it is accompanied by unhearing incompetence or ignorance that will lead to trouble.  From what I know from various people involved with the railway in question there has been a considerable disagreement between the railway management and the association which goes back for quite a while but it has not always been like that.  Quite why it has got so bad I can't say.

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

I know one very successful leisure railway where volunteers were long ago banned - 'because they were a confounded nuisance who only wanted to do what they wanted to do'.  The line's owners and manager make no bones at all about the fact that they are in the leisure business and that running steam hauled trains is a business decision to make their railway more attractive to certain markets they target.   But the guy who looks after their signals is very much an enthusiast for signals and is effectively a volunteer although the railway pay him for the work he does to keep the rail;way running - all other staff from tea room to train crew are paid employees.

I really hope that line wasn't founded off the back of volunteers, who gave their time and money to save and preserve a cause... 

If it was saved as a commercial business, run as a business from the outset then fair enough, volunteers are supporters to a cause, not its saviours.

 

But if the line was overtaken by professional management and run commercially, one could argue it was stolen from its founders..unless they freely gave it away, or were compensated for it.