West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[tomparryharry]

15 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Tomparryharry mentions the million £ business. I ran my own £1m almost single handed in the 1990s in the form of a vintage bus company which developed into something I never envisaged. It grew from the depression of the T*****r years of "loadsamoney", then got clobbered by the selling off of the railways (I was a major provider of rail replacement buses for Connex), and local council cuts in public transport. 

 

I was somewhat surprised to learn one of my local steam railways was only just turning over £1m in the mid 2000's, and has only recently achieved a turnover of nearly double that. But railway enthusiasts have an unlimited supply of rose-tinted glasses and want to preserve everything now, not tomorrow later, but NOW. This leads to all sorts of cash flow problems and needs good management to sort it out.

 

I volunteered he same local steam railway, being a former BR driver I thought my knowledge (albeit limited when it comes to steam locos) would be useful. But no, poor management with a degree of ambidextrous incoordination and some acidic comments from a one or two people put me off going back there. I met with volunteer coorindinators who told me that those making the acidic comments were those with vested interests in certain projects, essential people. But if they're deterring people like me from going there, so be it. I have better things to do.I don't mind railway banter, I've had years of it, but when comments are directed against someone in direct earshot that is something different.

 

I'd suggest there's a lot of this sort of thing that goes on with most preserved railway, and indeed most organisations regardless. I know someone who lives quite near the WSR and is a volunteer on there who also has connections with my local line but haven't met with that person for a while to discuss matters. It's a great shame that these organisations are steeped in internal politics.

 

Some people can't handle a round of drinks, so good for you, Roy.

[Mike Storey]

11 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I really hope that line wasn't founded off the back of volunteers, who gave their time and money to save and preserve a cause... 

If it was saved as a commercial business, run as a business from the outset then fair enough, volunteers are supporters to a cause, not its saviours.

 

But if the line was overtaken by professional management and run commercially, one could argue it was stolen from its founders..unless they freely gave it away, or were compensated for it.

 

 

If the reference is to the Dart Valley railway plc, then, no, it was not "stolen" from its founders. A sh1t load of money had to be found to buy the railway off BR (around £250k I think) and a lot more was needed to upgrade and convert the signalling. So a commercial company was used to undertake all this, but it had originally been formed to save the South Devon Railway, but that was bought out by the volunteer group and is still run as a largely volunteer railway to this day.

 

The Dart Valley has been a commercial operation since 1970, and also bought the ferry operation from Kingswear to Dartmouth. It uses very few volunteers, but they still exist!

 

[adb968008]

38 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

 no, it was not "stolen" from its founders. A sh1t load of money had to be found to buy the railway off BR (around £250k I think) and a lot more was needed to upgrade and convert the signalling. So a commercial company was used to undertake all this, but it had originally been formed to save the South Devon Railway, but that was bought out by the volunteer group and is still run as a largely volunteer railway to this day.

 

The Dart Valley has been a commercial operation since 1970, and also bought the ferry operation from Kingswear to Dartmouth. It uses very few volunteers, but they still exist!

 

Ive no idea, your asking the wrong person.

I was thinking @Stationmaster was talking of a line a long way from there myself.

 

There are several examples of “non-preserved” railways, which fair enough its a business. If people chose to help someone else make money its their choice, its a hobby and a passion, but at least its clear where they and the businesses stand.

 

I think there was volunteers at Blackpool pleasure beach railway at one time, and no one would consider that as preserved / charity.

Hopefully most preserved lines have their commercial arms held in firm control by the charitable arm, to prevent such takeovers... At the opposite extreme, Llangollen is a good example of why thats a good thing... imagine if the track / land / buildings also had to be auctioned off in parcels or chunks.. it would almost certainly be dream over.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

There is a lot of criticism on here of the WSR management; as an outsider I get the impression one or two of the new blood are exactly what the railway has clearly needed - even if they didn't want to admit they did - for a very long time.  The fact that the track had been allowed to deteriorate to such a state that closure might not have just been necessary, but could actually been imposed by the ORR, says people had taken their eyes off the ball for far too long.  But no-one noticed while the nice things like Galas went well with lots of big locos running and the enthusiasts were happy.

 

The WSR has been in financial difficulty before* and this is in part an unavoidable consequence of its length; the infrastructure costs of a >20 mile railway are always going to be high.  It is arguably longer than the optimum length for a preserved railway, although it would lose a lot of beneficial features if it were shorter.  Infrastructure costs money; I read a very good piece recently in the MHR magazine explaining how some lajor infrastructure expenditure was likely to be required very soon and that those costs should not be underestimated; the quote was that the GWR allocates 28% of expenditure to infrastructure and the NYMR expects to replace one mile of track per annum.  All "Big" heritage railways operating a lot of ton-miles, should be working to a strategy similar to these examples. 

 

The WSR are not the first and certainly won't be the last heritage railway to be in financial difficulty and certainly not the last to be led by individuals who rub others up the wrong way.  My pet scheme has for many years, "under-performed", not achieving much towards its long term aim and volunteers seem to have drifted away.  The prominent person in charge has been there for too long and is on the committees of all the contributing organisations, giving the impression to outsiders of a small personal empire, rather than a scheme with a lot of popular support for what should be a major public asset.

 

*In the early 80s, it was really struggling, having opened its full length (well not to Taunton but to BL) but the income had clearly not risen in line with the increased costs.  From memory, 1984 was seen as make or break; they hired a larger loco than normal (Small Prairie 5572 from the GWS) and under public threat of closure, traffic boomed and was reasonably successful since. 

[Railpassion]

Minehead is the centre piece of the WSR. A spacious track layout, ideal for crowds a few steps from the sea with stunning views. The town is well kept and the people are friendly. It certainly is a town worth visiting with Exmoor nearby and stunning beach walks to Dunster. It's a perfect place for families, it's not Padstein but there are reasonable restaurants and sensible prices.

I spent a few days there around 2015 and met quite a few volunteers. One took me to a concert of the local orchestra where the audience was over 800. I'd half expected to find a town in decline like many seaside resorts but this was a town that had managed to retain its self-esteem.  I was struck by the sheer number of WSR volunteers and their quiet enthusiasm. Things were done well and standards were high on the platform and onboard in the train buffets. 

 

That the railway management could even conceive threatening access to the jewel in their crown beggars belief. 

That the station will be cut off and silent for another high season in the year of the staycation can only mean the people in charge have some sort of death wish. It's such a shame.

 

As for the timetable, not so good for those staying in Minehead, take a look 

https://www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk/timetables/view/163

 

 

[fezza]

Even with Minehead cut off until September, they could surely organise 'Open Day' type events at Minehead, footplate visits for children, turntable demonstrations or brake van trips along their very long platform?  Many small heritage railways would kill for a site on the sea front at the heart of a seaside resort like Minehead.  The WSR management just seem to have given up.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I really hope that line wasn't founded off the back of volunteers, who gave their time and money to save and preserve a cause... 

If it was saved as a commercial business, run as a business from the outset then fair enough, volunteers are supporters to a cause, not its saviours.

 

But if the line was overtaken by professional management and run commercially, one could argue it was stolen from its founders..unless they freely gave it away, or were compensated for it.

 

The line in question was ourchased by an individual and is, i believe, now the prioperty of a family trust.  It is very professionally run - one of the better heritage/leisure sector lines in that respect which i have come across.  My audit of the line/company only ran to just over one page plus two more pages of observations and suggestions - and that is minimal compared with various other lines I have looked at where one department alone would get more than that.  

 

From what I know the WSR would merit a considerable amount more than that, a lot of it being extremely basic stuff in terms of meeting various legal  requirements some of which have existed for a very long time and most of which are in reality common sense.

 

 Incidentally seeing 'Northmoor's there is always one critical thing in all of this - the management of any heritage/leisure railway has various legal obligations which it must fulfil.  Many of those obligations are not only all too obvious to anyone with railway operational safety knowledge but are also plain commonsense as well as being spelled out in legislation and in notes of advice or guidance issued by the umbrella body for such railways.   All of them are very easily monitored, and equally easily audited by the relevant enforcing body or any suitably trained/qualified auditor.   If a management, whatever else they might do, cannot meet its basic obligations then it is inevitably at fault.  The Minehead level crossing situation would, again, be equally straightforward if it had been tackled in the correct manner instead of what appears to have been putting the cart before the horse.

[The Johnster]

I'd agree that Minehead is the jewel in the crown, and the railway will undoubtedly suffer from it's being out of commission for services for what is going to be a bumper summer season as we all go on trips out after the lockdowns.  A flourishing seaside town with a captive reservoir of tourists at Butlitz, and a station with a full set of facilities that acts as the HQ for the railway and maintains the stock as well as many of the locos, at the end of an attractive and interesting railway; how can this be in trouble? 

 

Perhaps the answer to this is mismanagement and a poisonous atmosphere, but a factor is probably also rooted in the aim to provide a service to Taunton to connect with the main line.  This has always been at the core of the railways' intentions, and has always caused problems, with backers, the local council, and the NUR, whose members were employed by the bus service that replaced the branch after BR closed it.  I have always considered that Taunton is essential to the commercial success of the operation, and that the line doesn't really go anywhere from Minehead.  Bishop's Lydeard is a pleasant enough spot, but one can hardly reasonably expect it to provide a reason to travel from Minehead; there's not much there and why should there be?  The core problem is that MH, the perfect heritage railway destination, is where most journeys start, preventing the place being the destination.

 

The line is effectively blocked at Norton Fitzwarren as we all know, and this is a cause of frustration to the WSR, it's management, staff, and supporters.  So near and yet so far, and through working can be done, though not on a timetabled basis.  I am sure that this frustration is at the heart of the disagreements and bad blood/personality conflicts.

 

Is it perhpas time to abandon the Taunton ambition?  It has caused nothing but trouble for nearly 50 years, and led the railway literally to a dead end at BL.  An interesting point is raised by Northmoor about the optimum length for a heritage/tourist/leisure railway, and this is worthy of examination.  How long do people want to be on a train for before the novelty wears off; don't forget that the core of passengers are not railway minded and many will be Butlitz on day release looking for something to do on rainy or dull day.  I'm not condemning them for that, but one must consider what they are getting for their money, and that they will probably have anklebiters in tow who need to be kept engaged as well.  The WSR is sort of between two stools; BL is a bit too long on the train and has nothing to go there for, and Dunster, the best tourist destination, is close enough to be seen from Minehead and is not far enough to give the feeling of a decent ride on the train.

 

You can go to Dunster, where there is a very attractive village and a castle to look around before you get the train back to Minehead, or to Watchet, which is an interesting little harbour town with some nice pubs, but not especially touristy or 'child friendly'.  Blue Anchor has nice pubs as well, and is a good spot to take the anklebiters rockpooling on the shore.  Once the line turns inland, the scenery is pleasant and there is much of railway interest, but not much else.  Perhaps the passenger service could terminate at Winchcombe, with the line not having to be maintained to passenger standards beyond that.  This would save operating costs, enable better use of locos and stock, more departures at peak times from Minehead, and the somewhat basic connection to GBR maintained and not further degraded.  A better service frequency, perhaps with shorter trains to further save on the coal bill and not overwork the locos, would encourage day or afternoon outings from MH to more than one destination (families will not want to be waiting for extended periods at stations, even ones as attractive as these; the anklebiters get restive).

 

It would focus attention on the WSR as a commercial tourist operation and dispose of the Taunton commuter dmu distaction.  It would be by no means the only thing needed to bring the WSR to the place it needs to be, and it is very much against the grain for me to suggest closing railways, but I feel it would be the way to go for this operation.

 

Just my two penn'orth, and probably worth about that much!

[caradoc]

I agree that running through to Taunton would have been ideal, but AFAIK that ambition was abandoned a long time ago. I mentioned before that I have only visited the WSR twice, a major reason being difficulty of access from main line rail. IMHO the railway would benefit greatly from what other railways in a similar position have done, for example the Bluebell (before extending to East Grinstead of course) and the Epping/Ongar, by providing a dedicated bus link between Taunton and Bishops Lydeard; Even better if, as per the EOR, heritage vehicles are used, providing an extra attraction and for some, reason to visit. 

 

[woodenhead]

@The Johnster First GW ran shuttles from Taunton (was that 2020 or 2019??) and I believe they proved popular so I don't think abandoning the route is necessary as they've already made progress there.

 

The problem at present is quite specific as it relates to a single crossing and some issue with completing the job which no doubt the PLC will share at some point soon and we will know what the matter is.  WSR has spent most of the past 12 months getting the track back into condition to take big locos, it's not all bad news, but clearly losing Minehead for a whole season is a clanger if it was avoidable.

[Mulgabill]

 

Time for a pause I suggest.

 

There is a bit of a bandwagon building here, and some cause for reflection, might be

appropriate.

 

This topic was started when the WSR had pretty much hit the buffers, as the title suggests.

Whatever we may think, those who stepped forward (or didn't step back quickly enough),

managed to keep the railway "on track", over the ensuing season.

 

Generally there are a number of different ways to approach these situations, none are

usually all right. But overall more than one can be right enough. Therefore just because

"they" didn't do it the way "we" would have, doesn't make it wrong.

 

With regard to the crossing problem, my recollection is that the railway Co had discussions,

and it was agreed with Somerset Council, that the responsibility for the crossing replacement

lay with the council. At the time the Co had just posted losses of 800k. So the railway weren't

exactly in a position to make generous gestures of a financial nature.

 

It was reported back in the Autumn, that the Council were aware that the crossing needed

to be operational for March. There then came reports re the need for "statutory consultation"

for the council and ORR.

 

Undoubtedly, along the way there have been things that could have been done better, and

could yet be done better. But it is all too easy to give a kicking while they are down.

 

We should remember that staff were laid off, and some therefore left to work elsewhere. The

volunteers were legally excluded from input for extended periods, and apart from grants no

genuine income. Yet there were successful station based events last summer, and very

significant stretches of track were weeded by hand!. 

 

Yes there may be things which are done better elsewhere, and undoubtedly there are things

which could be done better on the WSR. But they are more constrained by historical

circumstances, than by a current lack of unity. The need to build up the coffers is still

paramount, and the way forward will remain uncertain until some normality returns to

the climate.

 

Let's not make things worse by getting too tied up in past battles, when in general the line

needs our support. And if we can't be positive, perhaps we should leave it to those who can.

 

 

(The pictures, top and bottom, were taken in the past week, and from Saturday trains will

at least reach the seaside, at Blue Anchor).

 

TONY

[The Stationmaster]

1 minute ago, caradoc said:

I agree that running through to Taunton would have been ideal, but AFAIK that ambition was abandoned a long time ago. I mentioned before that I have only visited the WSR twice, a major reason being difficulty of access from main line rail. IMHO the railway would benefit greatly from what other railways in a similar position have done, for example the Bluebell (before extending to East Grinstead of course) and the Epping/Ongar, by providing a dedicated bus link between Taunton and Bishops Lydeard; Even better if, as per the EOR, heritage vehicles are used, providing an extra attraction and for some, reason to visit. 

 

It was indeed dropped a long time ago. BR quoted them a price many years ago and the WSR rejected it but subsequently the were able to agree to a deal wihich gave them a main lime connection to passenger standards which can be, and is, used for through excursion trains, various (see up thread for an example).

 

There has long been some dubiety about the expressed goal of 'getting to Taunton'. which was very much tied up with a particular promoter of the scheme to purchase the line and the land which went with and then - allegedly -sell off a lot of the land at a considerable profit to himself and close associates but not to the benefit of the railway.  It was definitely a 'back burner' item with the professional management of the railway when teh aim was to re-oen in manageable stages from Minehead as far as, ultimately, Bishops Lydeard.  in any case by around that time the NUR objection was well and truly quashed after I had spoken to the Branch Officers in a  certain NUR branch which actually came to favour the line being reopened to Taunton.

 

But it never happened and i doubt it ever will although obviously there is now nothing at all to stop the WSR seeking access to Taunton should they wish to pay the costs of doing so on an open access basis (if NR are prepared to support such an application andif the infrastructure capacity exists to do it).    After all a precedent exists with the NYMR running through to Whitby although rail traffic levels there are very different from the West of England main line

[RedgateModels]

24 minutes ago, Mulgabill said:

 

(The pictures, top and bottom, were taken in the past week, and from Saturday trains will

at least reach the seaside, at Blue Anchor).

 

TONY

 

No beach though, just mud. Lovely though BA is, it's not a beach holiday destination ....

[Mulgabill]

9 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

 

No beach though, just mud. Lovely though BA is, it's not a beach holiday destination ....

 

Ah, you need to know where / when to look. An it's never crowded, 'cos it's

often a bit breezy.

 

There is sand, indeed some has found it's way onto some cottages I'm making. That

reminds me, I need about a tablespoon more, must pop over after tea!

 

TONY

[woodenhead]

And now they've put the seat backs on the benches again people have somewhere to lounge at the station.

 

Pleased they are extending to Blue Anchor, seems a nice place to spend an hour.

[gwrrob]

Lovely looking signal box at Blue Anchor.

 

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, caradoc said:

I agree that running through to Taunton would have been ideal, but AFAIK that ambition was abandoned a long time ago. I mentioned before that I have only visited the WSR twice, a major reason being difficulty of access from main line rail. IMHO the railway would benefit greatly from what other railways in a similar position have done, for example the Bluebell (before extending to East Grinstead of course) and the Epping/Ongar, by providing a dedicated bus link between Taunton and Bishops Lydeard; Even better if, as per the EOR, heritage vehicles are used, providing an extra attraction and for some, reason to visit. 

 

Remember that even on lines which do have a main line connection, the vast majority of visitors - especially families - still arrive by road and this is unlikely to change significantly, any time soon.  The NYMR was the busiest line in the country (seaside miniature railways aside) long before extending services to Whitby; there cannot have been more than a tiny number of people arriving by rail at Grosmont before that. 

Railway enthusiasts, a disproportionate number of which (IME) are non-drivers, do not make up more than small proportion of the WSR, or any other railways' traffic.

[Siberian Snooper]

I  wonder if they have ever looked at Norton Fitzwarren as a starting point for the journey, it's close to the A358 Taunton to Minehead road being on the B3227 (the old A381 Taunton to Barnstaple road before the North Devon link road was opened). The road crosses the line just north of the triangle. If they could purchase some land, they'd have room for a station and a decent sized car park.

It's possible to access the area from the south off the A38 by using the new road and avoid the centre of Taunton and the A3259/A358 does the same from the North, the only bottle neck is direct from the M5 and the A358,  but by coming off the M5 a junction earlier and using the A38 instead it saves all the angst of Taunton.

 

Possibly run a suitable bus service between Taunton town centre via the railway station to the railway for those without their own transport.

 

 

[fezza]

It would be possible to build a station south of the B3227 at Norton where the North end of the triangle sits. The railway owns the land already. It might actually ease pressure on traffic and parking at BL. 

 

The really unforgiveable thing about the wider situation is the neglect of track maintenance. I've only volunteered on a couple of small heritage railways that use mainly  light industrial tanks, but our guvnors always stressed the vital importance of regular checks on every chair, key, bolt, sleeper and track component. It beggars belief that the country's premier heritage line neglected basic track maintenance and repairs. 

[Oldddudders]

10 hours ago, fezza said:

 the country's premier heritage line 

I think that accolade might be subject to challenge. 

[5944]

20 hours ago, fezza said:

Even with Minehead cut off until September, they could surely organise 'Open Day' type events at Minehead, footplate visits for children, turntable demonstrations or brake van trips along their very long platform?  Many small heritage railways would kill for a site on the sea front at the heart of a seaside resort like Minehead.  The WSR management just seem to have given up.

I can't think of another preserved line where the chairman of the operating company is a director of nearly a dozen other companies. Spreading himself too thinly to be able to do the job sufficiently? 

 

He also has history with regards paperwork and engineering, so to me it seems he was an odd choice to be heralded as someone to "save the railway". 

 

https://www.route-one.net/legal/tc_revokes_crosville_s_o_licence/

[ikcdab]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Taunton to connect with the main line.  This has always been at the core of the railways' intentions, and has always caused problems, with backers, the local council, and the NUR, whose members

The intention of providing a service to Taunton was abandoned many years ago. Despite the 1976 NUR ban, any realistic toughts of doing this disappeared in 1985 when the mainline was resignalled. The old up branch was removed and the upside bay became unavailable. All MD trains would then have to share the mainline with mainline trains with all the regulatory issues that entails. WSR services to Taunton has not been policy since. Bishops lydeard was then developed as the main terminus with loco servicing,visitor centre, cafe, shop, car parking etc, none of which would be available at Taunton. In recent years, we have encouraged GWR to provide a link to Taunton and this worked successfully in 2019 and maybe will again one day. There is a local group in Minehead who propose a Taunton service, but this is highly impractical and I don't see it ever happening.

Meanwhile, the mainline connection remains and is frequently used by the HOBC and occasionally by excursions.

It is deeply disappointing that we can't use seaward Way crossing this season. Its use for passenger traffic has been banned by ORR as the equipment is now life-expired.

Ian

 

 

[woodenhead]

12 hours ago, fezza said:

the country's premier heritage line neglected basic track maintenance and repairs. 

 

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

I think that accolade might be subject to challenge. 

Maybe he meant 'the county's premier heritage line'

[PenrithBeacon]

13 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I  wonder if they have ever looked at Norton Fitzwarren as a starting point for the journey ...

I think the WSR is too long as it is

[ikcdab]

12 hours ago, fezza said:

 

The really unforgiveable thing about the wider situation is the neglect of track maintenance. I've only volunteered on a couple of small heritage railways that use mainly  light industrial tanks, but our guvnors always stressed the vital importance of regular checks on every chair, key, bolt, sleeper and track component. It beggars belief that the country's premier heritage line neglected basic track maintenance and repairs. 

That's totally wrong. The railway has always looked after the track. Daily line walking, a full-time and qualified track gang supported by a thriving volunteer gang has seen to that. Winter relays of various sections on an annual basis. During 2017 a six figure sum was spent on rail renewal along the whole line. 2019/2020 saw a lengthy relay at Alcombe.  Subsequent assessments under modern criteria have shown that the underlying infrastructure does not allow heavy engines to run regularly on the line. It was cheaply built in 1862 to 1874 and we are now reaping the rewards of that. It is that which is now hampering us and will cost a fair amount to fix.