West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[woodenhead]

7 minutes ago, Mulgabill said:

Playing devil's advocate.

 

It was a tired faux Pullman livery, and was a discordant element when formed

in  a train with normal stock. It would now give a better overall aesthetic, especially

as much of the fleet has also now been repainted. (learnt that terminology from CK).

 

Still can't understand why there isn't money to be earned, unless internal boundaries

are preventing the WSR "family" working together, again.

 

TONY

I understand where you are coming from, but you want to sell your premium service and it needs to stand out to people visiting so they question what it is and find out about the dining service, or that they feel special when using it - otherwise it's just another set of maroon coaches which are anonymous.  

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Which I find odd, it was in a stand out Pullman style livery and now it just looks like any other train on the line - not sure how that would help move it into profit, you want something that stands out to draw attention to the service.

 

56 minutes ago, Mulgabill said:

Playing devil's advocate.

 

It was a tired faux Pullman livery, and was a discordant element when formed

in  a train with normal stock. It would now give a better overall aesthetic, especially

as much of the fleet has also now been repainted. (learnt that terminology from CK).

 

Still can't understand why there isn't money to be earned, unless internal boundaries

are preventing the WSR "family" working together, again.

 

TONY

Steam Dreams seem to manage quite well by offering different levels of 'dining experience' irrespective of the colour of the rolling stock.  In fact I wouldn't mind betting that many of today's customers for this sort of thing wouldn't have a clue what a real Pullman livery and coach interior looked like unless they'd been on one of the VSOE trips.  We've done the Steam Dreams Pullman level meal etc once and it was pretty good although the vehicles were basically ordinary Mk1s.  We've also done a trip on a VSOE 'real Pullman' excursion - where (unless things have changed) you don't get hot food.  I also travelled on a real Pullman, albeit of the blue variety, back in the day so knew what real Pullman service and food was like and some of these contemporary concerns are well up to the mark (even if they don't do steak sandwiches).

 

What it's really all about for many punters is not just the name but far more importantly the experience, level of service, and quality of the food.  If you get the service and food right and do your marketing properly it must be almost a licence to print money and it would be one heck of a job not to make it a financial success particularly in a holiday area where it would n be a novelty for many folk.  And if it is good enough there will be things like 'Sunday lunch' etc repeat business from the locals - it's all about the product and the marketing, not really about the livery of the stock.

[woodenhead]

Out on the network - a nice clean set of maroon Mk1s looks like a special train, on a heritage railway it is another set of coaches.

 

I know it's what is on the inside that counts and a good dining service will sell itself, but when you're not making the money then to me you need to advertise it loudly to generate more enquiries and for me that is a livery distinctive to everything else on the railway.

[Mulgabill]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Steam Dreams seem to manage quite well by offering different levels of 'dining experience' irrespective of the colour of the rolling stock.  In fact I wouldn't mind betting that many of today's customers for this sort of thing wouldn't have a clue what a real Pullman livery and coach interior looked like unless they'd been on one of the VSOE trips.  We've done the Steam Dreams Pullman level meal etc once and it was pretty good although the vehicles were basically ordinary Mk1s.  We've also done a trip on a VSOE 'real Pullman' excursion - where (unless things have changed) you don't get hot food.  I also travelled on a real Pullman, albeit of the blue variety, back in the day so knew what real Pullman service and food was like and some of these contemporary concerns are well up to the mark (even if they don't do steak sandwiches).

 

What it's really all about for many punters is not just the name but far more importantly the experience, level of service, and quality of the food.  If you get the service and food right and do your marketing properly it must be almost a licence to print money and it would be one heck of a job not to make it a financial success particularly in a holiday area where it would n be a novelty for many folk.  And if it is good enough there will be things like 'Sunday lunch' etc repeat business from the locals - it's all about the product and the marketing, not really about the livery of the stock.

 

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

Out on the network - a nice clean set of maroon Mk1s looks like a special train, on a heritage railway it is another set of coaches.

 

I know it's what is on the inside that counts and a good dining service will sell itself, but when you're not making the money then to me you need to advertise it loudly to generate more enquiries and for me that is a livery distinctive to everything else on the railway.

 

I don't want to stray down too much of a branchline, but as my highest educational pinacle

at one time made me a member of inst of Marketing, I am unusually at home here.

 

I think we are all basically on the same page. Mike (Stationmaster) is probably right, most of

the potential market are interested in the food, on a train. And as long as its all presented

well, food, staff, coaches, loco etc, they will be happy customers.

 

If part of your marketing plan, (promotion), plays on elite Pullman style, then a Pullman

livery becomes more important.

 

However this could put off a fair proportion of the potential client base, who simply don't

want to dress up, and pay significant premiums. So the marketing plan might, alternatively,

be aimed at a lower level, perhaps on more occasions, but more accessible. Bearing in mind

that one market segment for the WSR, in normal times, is the clientele of Butlins, who could

conceivably be enticed for a 2nd trip, inclusive of a meal, if promoted to them on their

train ride first time round.

 

The key thing that perhaps seems to be missing, may be the will to find a way to make it work,

more than it not being possible. The most unfortunate thing is that the good reputation

gained by the original, volunteer, operation seems to have been lost. This would need to be

re-established for the long term success of any new plan.

 

That would in turn require the will to want to run some sort of catering service, beyond the

standard tea/ coffee/snacks etc, and a coherent plan for it. Or the easy way, is sell off the stock,

and turn away a market segment that others are pandering to.

 

TONY

 

[PenrithBeacon]

I think the deal at Butlins is that meals are include. I would doubt if their customers would be willing to forego that.

[Mulgabill]

8 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think the deal at Butlins is that meals are include. I would doubt if their customers would be willing to forego that.

 

re Butlins

 

It depends on what package you are on. The 1 week we stayed, many years ago, we were self catering.

(The railway element was predominently narrow gauge, except for a spectacular Class 37 back from

Barmouth, which was running 2 hrs late. I can hear the noise now, almost ampified by the darkness, as

the driver gunned it away from every station. He obviously wanted to get home!)

 

But there is also the chance to promote the meal on the train, as that special meal of the holiday, that

I suspect many of us would have.

 

TONY

[Bucoops]

21 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think the deal at Butlins is that meals are include. I would doubt if their customers would be willing to forego that.

 

There are several levels of catering - self catered, some food (half board sort of thing) and similar but in "better" restaurants".

[The Stationmaster]

I don't know if it has changed but one area of 'catering' the WSR could definitely improve would be teh peculiar thing masquerading as a 'pasty' which I bought at Bishops Lydeard station and which really merited prosecution for several reasons.  It not only contained carrot buts peas and, incredibly, minced meat.  A well known gentleman from Cornwall and I both rapidly concluded that it was the grossest insult to a proper pasty that we had ever had the misfortune to come across.  

 

So that's one element of catering where the WSR would miss out on my next visits - I'll either take sarnies or walk up the road to the pub.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I think the deal at Butlins is that meals are include. I would doubt if their customers would be willing to forego that.

I stayed at a Majorca hotel which served at least three meal options every lunch and dinnertime, including one "local" dish and many guests would have been staying all-inclusive.  

 

The number of people who I saw going across the road to the "British Pub" to get fish and chips or Sunday lunches, was astonishing.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Northmoor

[Oldddudders]

35 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

I stayed at a Majorca hotel

Your secret is safe with us.

[Steamport Southport]

Nothing like having a roast dinner and eight pints of Guinness in 38 degree heat!

[JohnR]

It seems incredible that the WSR are losing money on their dining train!

 

It strikes me as being in the ideal position to market one - a line long enough that you can serve a decent two/three course meal in the time it takes to do the journey, with some cracking scenery, close to the motorway network at one end.

 

As for who would buy the stock, its unlikely that too many other lines could make use of the complete train in my opinion - for the reasons above. 

[Mulgabill]

1 hour ago, JohnR said:

It seems incredible that the WSR are losing money on their dining train!

 

It strikes me as being in the ideal position to market one - a line long enough that you can serve a decent two/three course meal in the time it takes to do the journey, with some cracking scenery, close to the motorway network at one end.

 

As for who would buy the stock, its unlikely that too many other lines could make use of the complete train in my opinion - for the reasons above. 

 

We are talking of 3 or max 4 coaches, maybe thats the problem. Not enough seats.

 

TONY

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, Mulgabill said:

 

We are talking of 3 or max 4 coaches, maybe thats the problem. Not enough seats.

 

TONY

Thought it was 5 coaches, almost a full length train for the line but premium prices

[Joseph_Pestell]

I am having a "senior moment" and can't think of the name of the station.

 

But the place where the SDJT are based has a pub next door that does a very fair Sunday lunch.

[Mulgabill]

Just now, Joseph_Pestell said:

I am having a "senior moment" and can't think of the name of the station.

 

But the place where the SDJT are based has a pub next door that does a very fair Sunday lunch.

 

Washford.

 

And I think it's the Washford Inn.

 

As for the number of coaches, I don't recall seeing the QB operate with more than 4 recently.

And I recall reading that at least one of the originals had been replaced, and it was normal

for 1 to be spare/under repair.

 

Will try to check, but some of my WSR books are at the caravan.

 

TONY

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have great admiration for anyone who takes on the challenge of serving food on a train.

 

Mention further up the thread in which it is compared to a restaurant. It isn't. In a restaurant, you arrange for your guests to arrive at steady intervals so neither the kitchen nor the serving staff get overwhelmed. On a preservation railway, they all turn up together.

 

Serving food on a train is more like banqueting, and that needs rather more staff, working in quite a different way to restaurant staff. So, volunteers a definite plus.

 

But then you have the additional problem of a train being a difficult shape by comparison with a hall.

[Mulgabill]

Have found the info quicker than expected,

 

The WSRA own the QB which currently coomprises

 

FO 3108  (Meteor)

 

RU  1909  (Orion)

 

RMB 1804  (Aries)

 

BSK  35408 (Jupiter)  Names in brackets, are those previously carried.

 

Additionally they also own

BCK 21174 (Phoenix) which previously ran in the QB, but which is now on hire

to WSR plc, along with 5 x TSO,

 

I have seen the QB run, mostly as an independent train, although there have been times

where its 3 or 4 coaches has been combined with a service train for the return journey. I

wonder if that might suggest a more economic operational option, for the future. Assuming

the staffing could be sorted, of course.

 

Mind you I'm not sure that dining by train, is currently at the top of the priorities, at the

moment, given capacity restrictions etc.

 

TONY

[Oldddudders]

22 minutes ago, Mulgabill said:

Mind you I'm not sure that dining by train, is currently at the top of the priorities, at the

moment, given capacity restrictions etc.

And is the clientele there, while Covid is still with us, arguably now again unchecked? The preservation sector relies on families, and a stuffy restaurant car might be good in normal times, but right now, with a variant that is more virulent for the young? 

[Joseph_Pestell]

How compatible is an operation like the QB with preservation?

 

I'm not familiar with the WSR stock but I have had business dealings with the operation at Swanage and their catering vehicles are nothing like they were in BR days. The corridor has gone to give much more space for catering and service.

 

The Blue Pullman has always seemed to me to get the arrangement about right: Dining Car / Kitchen Dining / Dining Car (x2). But you could just run the one set when demand was low.

 

Then: Cold Starter, Hot Main, Cold Dessert. Arrange the timetable so everything is served when the train is stationary.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 hour ago, Mulgabill said:

Have found the info quicker than expected,

 

The WSRA own the QB which currently coomprises

 

FO 3108  (Meteor)

 

RU  1909  (Orion)

 

RMB 1804  (Aries)

 

BSK  35408 (Jupiter)  Names in brackets, are those previously carried.

 

Additionally they also own

BCK 21174 (Phoenix) which previously ran in the QB, but which is now on hire

to WSR plc, along with 5 x TSO,

 

I have seen the QB run, mostly as an independent train, although there have been times

where its 3 or 4 coaches has been combined with a service train for the return journey. I

wonder if that might suggest a more economic operational option, for the future. Assuming

the staffing could be sorted, of course.

 

Mind you I'm not sure that dining by train, is currently at the top of the priorities, at the

moment, given capacity restrictions etc.

 

TONY

 

That's a pretty weird consist for a dining train,

[johnofwessex]

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't know if it has changed but one area of 'catering' the WSR could definitely improve would be teh peculiar thing masquerading as a 'pasty' which I bought at Bishops Lydeard station and which really merited prosecution for several reasons.  It not only contained carrot buts peas and, incredibly, minced meat.  A well known gentleman from Cornwall and I both rapidly concluded that it was the grossest insult to a proper pasty that we had ever had the misfortune to come across.  

 

So that's one element of catering where the WSR would miss out on my next visits - I'll either take sarnies or walk up the road to the pub.

 

Highlight of the WSR for Middle Son when younger was the visit to the 'Cooking Carriage' for his microwaved sausage roll.

 

On the odd occasions when Domestic Facilities Management came she viewed this delicacy with disgust as good food it is not.

[Railpassion]

NYMR has a four car dining set which in past years has brought in c. £240,000 per year. It is staffed by some volunteers and some paid staff. Since the early days the diner has provided a valuable base income stream for the NYMR. 

The QB was doing something similar for the WSR. It seems the QB made a profit until things were changed and it was taken over by the Plc. I have read more about the Plc in recent days and little of it is pleasant. 

 

The value of the QB set is in it's future income potential to the the railway. The value of the 4 carriages at auction may not be much at all.

 

In Russia in the 90's some state companies were asset-stripped by certain cronies, new to the boards, and the value of the companies was then much reduced enabling a private buyout for pennies by the same cronies. 

In the UK it's not for nothing that the early actors in rail privatisation were known as the 'bus bandits'.

So what is the real plan at the WSR? 

 

[The Stationmaster]

With on-train catering, whatever sort of train it happens to be, it is inevitable that catering service has to take place when the train is moving and that - in my experience - is exactly what usually happens.  But it does need the right organisation especially where it is 'banquet style' service with diners moving to the next course at more or less the same time - but that was no different on BR when dining car meals were arranged in sittings and it is no different (when they run) on GWR's 'Pullman' dining service (and, as a piece of name dropping, it is no different when staff meals are served on the Royal Train - and you get basically the menu the  Principal Party agreed, no choice).   In fact thinking back over the years it was the usual practice for an awful lot of UK railborne catering and for Eurostar as well.

 

So it isn't impossible to arrange, notwithstanding the real constraint of having to pass through narrow gangways, but again that isn't new.  In my experience from Steam Dreams and  a VSOE lunch excursion thet diners seem to enjoy the novelty of eating in a moving 'restaurant' and of course if the meal was timed around a train being stationary it would probably play havoc with the rest of a railway's timetable.  So dining trains move and folk eat, drink, and make merry while on the move - all art of the 'experience'.

[PatB]

Given that dining trains operate successfully and profitably elsewhere, I think we can safely assume that difficulties with the WSR operation are WSR specific rather than due to the inherent challenges and limitations of operating dining trains.