West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[fezza]

43 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

They probably got more than "half a mill" in furlough money alone. Something they wouldn't have got if they were run by volunteers.

 

How many people do they actually employ? About 50 according to the website. £10,000 each at a low estimate. That's half a million right there.

 

https://www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk/corporate-information

 

 

Jason

It was always understood that if they operated as a charity they would still need many paid employees - and they would still have been able to claim for furlough for these like other charities.

 

However a big issue for the WSR has certainly been the escalating wage bill. It doesn't seem to have led to a more "professional" approach to running the railway, given it has essentially been shut down for safety reasons and is now asking it's volunteers for half a mill to stay afloat 

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

They probably got more than "half a mill" in furlough money alone. Something they wouldn't have got if they were run by volunteers.

 

How many people do they actually employ? About 50 according to the website. £10,000 each at a low estimate. That's half a million right there.

Presumably such an operation has seasonal staff etc. 50 does sound like a lot. 

 

While I hope it all survives, I would prefer something more interesting than Mk 1s to travel in. Stories about route clearance indicate a fascination with locomotives, despite much of the paying patronage being happy with something small and blue with a face. Understanding what your business truly is may not be a high art there, despite internal struggles to be Fat Controller. 

[Bucoops]

Surely money claimed for furlough goes (via the employer) to the employee? So whilst it saves on the wages bill it can't be diverted for any other expenses.

[brianusa]

On 17/07/2021 at 12:20, brianusa said:

There has been a diesel parked by the Up Platform at Blue Anchor for a couple of days.

   Brian.

At least this one finally moved somewhere

    Brian.

[The Stationmaster]

Some real numbers which might help debate -

 

To the end of September 2020 the PLC had £237,990 for furlough payments plus received a local authority tourism industry support grant of £25,000 plus a £200,000 loan under the Coronavirus business support scheme plus a grant of £864,901 from the Cultural Heritage s Support Scheme and it also deferred repayment of a £70,000 loan to the WSR Association.  In addition, again to end September 2020 the PL:D had received public donations of £128,019 plus income from the sale of shares amounting to £44,810.  

 

Ignoring the saving of paying out £70,00 the PLC got ina total of £1,500,720 between March and September 2020, which equalled almost 50% of its entire income for the financial year ended 31 March 2020.  At 31 March 2020 the PLC had £448,616 in its bank account.   The company had made an i operating profit of £231,904 in the year ending 31 March 2020  Its total employment costs for the year ended 31 March 2020 had been £874,411 and that immediately suggests that significant number of (expensive) people on the books had not been furloughed;  operating costs (excluding employment) had been £1,712,035.  

 

The average number of people employed during year end 31 March 2020 was (including directors) 43 railway and 5 shop = 48 total   The average cost per person was £18,211. Tracing the Director's movements is a bit like playing musical chairs while blindfolded but a reasonable summery is that = 6 Directors served during the year in question and compensation of £19,00 was paid to one who left.  Directors' fees, including pension contributions amounted to £43,777 so they averaged payment of £7296 although that is probably nota reasonable presentation of the amounts individually received by them.

 

Overall I tend to the conclusion that as it stands, even allowing for its need to service/repay outstanding debts and loans the company is heavily staffed for the sort of railway it would be operating even if it were at full service levels.  There is insufficient information to get at any sort of operating cost per train mile but that would be an interesting figure especially measured against revenue per train mile.   I also get the impression that the company did not cut its expenditure suit to go with the new cloth of greatly reduced income arising from the pandemic but it interesting that in the first 6 months of its  financial year ended 31March 2021 it actually received by various means an amount equal to almost 50% of its income for the entire previous financial year.  I can from that alone perhaps begin to understand why it is not being considered for further Govt help now

[5944]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Some real numbers which might help debate -

 

To the end of September 2020 the PLC had £237,990 for furlough payments plus received a local authority tourism industry support grant of £25,000 plus a £200,000 loan under the Coronavirus business support scheme plus a grant of £864,901 from the Cultural Heritage s Support Scheme and it also deferred repayment of a £70,000 loan to the WSR Association.  In addition, again to end September 2020 the PL:D had received public donations of £128,019 plus income from the sale of shares amounting to £44,810.  

 

Ignoring the saving of paying out £70,00 the PLC got ina total of £1,500,720 between March and September 2020, which equalled almost 50% of its entire income for the financial year ended 31 March 2020.  At 31 March 2020 the PLC had £448,616 in its bank account.   The company had made an i operating profit of £231,904 in the year ending 31 March 2020  Its total employment costs for the year ended 31 March 2020 had been £874,411 and that immediately suggests that significant number of (expensive) people on the books had not been furloughed;  operating costs (excluding employment) had been £1,712,035.  

 

The average number of people employed during year end 31 March 2020 was (including directors) 43 railway and 5 shop = 48 total   The average cost per person was £18,211. Tracing the Director's movements is a bit like playing musical chairs while blindfolded but a reasonable summery is that = 6 Directors served during the year in question and compensation of £19,00 was paid to one who left.  Directors' fees, including pension contributions amounted to £43,777 so they averaged payment of £7296 although that is probably nota reasonable presentation of the amounts individually received by them.

 

Overall I tend to the conclusion that as it stands, even allowing for its need to service/repay outstanding debts and loans the company is heavily staffed for the sort of railway it would be operating even if it were at full service levels.  There is insufficient information to get at any sort of operating cost per train mile but that would be an interesting figure especially measured against revenue per train mile.   I also get the impression that the company did not cut its expenditure suit to go with the new cloth of greatly reduced income arising from the pandemic but it interesting that in the first 6 months of its  financial year ended 31March 2021 it actually received by various means an amount equal to almost 50% of its income for the entire previous financial year.  I can from that alone perhaps begin to understand why it is not being considered for further Govt help now

So income was £1.5m, despite hardly running any services (a few at Christmas?). To me, that sounds like a lot of money to spend with very little to show for it at the end. 

 

Regarding red route availability, I'm sure it's just a coincidence that the current PLC chairman owns two red route locos. Same as I'm sure it's a coincidence that he also owns a lot of vintage buses and has recently set up yet another company, handy if you can't run the full length of the line to your main destination. 

[Mulgabill]

To be fair, we do have to remember that the £864K grant had strings atached. i.e. it had to be

spent, within a defined period, only on specific "projects", detailed in the application. Useful

in protecting, and advancing, some infrastructure projects. Not necessarily so helpful in

simply keeping the business going.

 

The question of Red Route availability arose some time before the current chairman's involvement,

but that's not to say it wouldn't be helpful, on both sides. (Although I have to say 2019's Branch

line gala was, for me, more aesthetically pleasing, with all those panniers!).

 

Is it more convenient for the railway, that they have easy access to the chairman's busses, or the bus

owners inside track on on a new hire opportunity? I guess we'll only know when the accounts get

published.

 

TONY

[PenrithBeacon]

Minehead Station is open right now.

[PenrithBeacon]

 

 

[Mallard60022]

19 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Presumably such an operation has seasonal staff etc. 50 does sound like a lot. 

 

While I hope it all survives, I would prefer something more interesting than Mk 1s to travel in. Stories about route clearance indicate a fascination with locomotives, despite much of the paying patronage being happy with something small and blue with a face. Understanding what your business truly is may not be a high art there, despite internal struggles to be Fat Controller. 

Sounds familiar to the earlier days of the Bluebell. Lovely people but they didn't understand customer needs and customer service very often in the earlier days when I first went there to volunteer in the 70s. Once they got a Business Manager in place, which annoyed many of the established railway nerds, and decent facilities including a lovely Restaurant were built then the Railway started to grow from strength to strength. By the time I returned for longer periods in the late 90s, it was a superb outfit. Truly professional operations. but with others that understood the public who pays their dosh.

Most heritage lines have got that customer needs situation sussed, some have still not! Toilets, ice cream and somewhere for the bored kids to play whilst Grandad wanders about the place. Sadly internal Politics can really hold back a place like this and Volunteers in particular need to be truly valued as well.

How the hell the WSR, in its' superb location and with hundreds of tourists visiting Butlins and the area, has brought this on is very strange. I do hope things get better. It is a great line, one of the best really.

P

 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Mulgabill said:

To be fair, we do have to remember that the £864K grant had strings atached. i.e. it had to be

spent, within a defined period, only on specific "projects", detailed in the application. Useful

in protecting, and advancing, some infrastructure projects. Not necessarily so helpful in

simply keeping the business going.

 

The question of Red Route availability arose some time before the current chairman's involvement,

but that's not to say it wouldn't be helpful, on both sides. (Although I have to say 2019's Branch

line gala was, for me, more aesthetically pleasing, with all those panniers!).

 

Is it more convenient for the railway, that they have easy access to the chairman's busses, or the bus

owners inside track on on a new hire opportunity? I guess we'll only know when the accounts get

published.

 

TONY

You could of course ask the question in your final paragraph now highlighted) the other way. i.e. is it very convenient for the Chairman's other companies to have a ready made customer where he happens to be the Chairman of its PLC?  I wouldn't know;  but he does have or has had involvement (in many cases as sole Director or one of two or three Directors)  in a string of companies - c.12 currently active -  many of which could conceivably have some sort of link with the kind of business carried on by the WSR PLC.

 

And I note the WSR's 2020 accounts show a sum paid to another company fora. Director's services.  Ony £250 and it of course might have no connection but it does seem odd that a leisure/heritage railway has to buy-in Directorial level 'services' from outside.  consultancy fees would be one thing but 'Director's services?  

 

Incidentally I know what the situation is now but the WSR used top pay loco owners a daily fee for provision of a loco plus a set amount per mile that loco ran in traffic use.   I know that agreement/method of payment goes back a long way into WSR history but how does the PLC decide whose assets it will be using at any particular time I wonder? 

[PenrithBeacon]

As I was coming away from Minehead last evening I noticed that the equipment cabinet for the crossing has been installed on the south east side of the crossing. It's very intrusive.

[The Stationmaster]

26 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

As I was coming away from Minehead last evening I noticed that the equipment cabinet for the crossing has been installed on the south east side of the crossing. It's very intrusive.

Is that the large green REB?  One photo I've seen suggests that might be on the south east side of the crossing or is it in addition to the REB?

[PenrithBeacon]

Yes, it's the large dark green box. Given that  the connections to the crossing gate will be electrical it could have gone anywhere.  It doesn't need to be as intrusive as that.

The WSR continues to make all the wrong decisions. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Mulgabill]

Just to brighten things a little, and showing what the WSR does best, pics of yesterdays

RTC Padd - Watchet Excursion.

 

45596 Bahamas, leaving  Taunton Station, and heading to Norton Fitzwarren, and the WSR.

 

 

And in Bishops Lydiard, about to hand over to 7828 Odney Manor and 7822 Foxcote Manor.

So good to see the crowds back, after so long. Even if you might perhaps not wish to be right in the

middle of the scrum.

 

 

7822 Foxcote Manor, heads the train into Watchet

 

 

..... banked(!) by 7828 Odney Manor

 

 

Meanwhile, one of the (two) service trains. 5199 in its "New" G W Green livery.

 

 

(Personally I preferred it in BR Black).

 

Odney with ecs to Williton

 

 

Foxy helping from behind.

 

 

And all to be repeated, next month.

 

 

TONY

 

[brianusa]

On 20/07/2021 at 03:19, PenrithBeacon said:

Yes, it's the large dark green box. Given that  the connections to the crossing gate will be electrical it could have gone anywhere.  It doesn't need to be as intrusive as that.

The WSR continues to make all the wrong decisions. 

 

Railway furniture is rarely hidden away!  The railway probably has its reasons; no doubt financial!

  Brian.

[brianusa]

On 18/07/2021 at 13:59, brianusa said:

On 17/07/2021 at 12:20, brianusa said:

There has been a diesel parked by the Up Platform at Blue Anchor for a couple of days.

   Brian.

At least this one finally moved somewhere

    Brian.

And back again - 'All I can do from GH is 'cyber spot'!

Brian.  

[woodenhead]

Good news on the West Somerset:

http://www.wsr.org.uk/news.htm#2365

 

People returned to the railway in greater numbers than anticipated, nearly double the budgeted fare income plus other positives, turned a budgeted loss for the month into a small profit.

 

Green shoots....

[adb968008]

I got chance to visit the WSR at Minehead a few weeks back, when I cautiously ventured the question about all the online comments, the response I got was it is seen more of a few select disgruntled empty vessels making the most noise, and in time they are being eradicated. But they also ventured, if they really have the railways best interests at heart, they should get on board and back it, as there is only 1 “railway”.

 

It does feel like the railway has a greater than normal number of “supporting” groups, compared to other lines ive visited. Its almost as if anyone can spin up a group for a purpose on the line, perhaps its a case of too many small empires are hanging off the mother ship ?

 

I found several freshly repainted coaches in the platform, a very healthy looking station and several teams working on site… it certainly didn't look like a tribal warzone..which begs the question, how can supporters go online, seeing red and bang away of their keyboards Monday to Friday, then roll up, put on overalls and start restoring something alongside their colleagues on the weekend and keep an honest face  ?.. I am wondering if there is an  “Irish American” analogy here.., (those supporters who have never flown east of New York),  in that they aren't all turning up that much, but just spend long amounts of time venting online ?

 

Either way, seeing the line, instead of reading about it left a very different impression… the line looks ok to me, plenty of volunteers getting on with it, and a general feeling that services will be back to Minehead and things are on the up.

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by adb968008

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

I got chance to visit the WSR at Minehead a few weeks back, when I cautiously ventured the question about all the online comments, the response I got was it is seen more of a few select disgruntled empty vessels making the most noise, and in time they are being eradicated. But they also ventured, if they really have the railways best interests at heart, they should get on board and back it, as there is only 1 “railway”.

 

It does feel like the railway has a greater than normal number of “supporting” groups, compared to other lines ive visited. Its almost as if anyone can spin up a group for a purpose on the line, perhaps its a case of too many small empires are hanging off the mother ship ?

 

I found several freshly repainted coaches in the platform, a very healthy looking station and several teams working on site… it certainly didn't look like a tribal warzone..which begs the question, how can supporters go online, seeing red and bang away of their keyboards Monday to Friday, then roll up, put on overalls and start restoring something alongside their colleagues on the weekend and keep an honest face  ?.. I am wondering if there is an  “Irish American” analogy here.., (those supporters who have never flown east of New York),  in that they aren't all turning up that much, but just spend long amounts of time venting online ?

 

Either way, seeing the line, instead of reading about it left a very different impression… the line looks ok to me, plenty of volunteers getting on with it, and a general feeling that services will be back to Minehead and things are on the up.

I think every major preserved railway has the same problem to some extent, although the low level of donations to the WSR's latest appeal suggests the lack of even moral support for the railway may be spread wider than we'd like to believe.

 

Most railways have one or two individuals who often in the early years of a scheme, get themselves into influential positions, although not always on Boards or Committees.  They can be the ones who own several locomotives that the railway becomes overly dependent on, for example, and have little interest in the public-facing side of operating a railway.  These individuals can be very vocal when they fall out with the railway and believe that most people agree with them, because no-one argues back.  The "offender" wrongly assumes silence to mean acceptance and agreement, when it's really because most people don't enjoy getting into arguments.

 

In these days of social media of course, those who want to avoid an argument still do, but those emboldened behind a keyboard and screen to challenge the accusations, are still likely to be outnumbered by those just as confident to shout them down, so what is left an echo chamber.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I got chance to visit the WSR at Minehead a few weeks back, when I cautiously ventured the question about all the online comments, the response I got was it is seen more of a few select disgruntled empty vessels making the most noise, and in time they are being eradicated. But they also ventured, if they really have the railways best interests at heart, they should get on board and back it, as there is only 1 “railway”.

 

It does feel like the railway has a greater than normal number of “supporting” groups, compared to other lines ive visited. Its almost as if anyone can spin up a group for a purpose on the line, perhaps its a case of too many small empires are hanging off the mother ship ?

 

I found several freshly repainted coaches in the platform, a very healthy looking station and several teams working on site… it certainly didn't look like a tribal warzone..which begs the question, how can supporters go online, seeing red and bang away of their keyboards Monday to Friday, then roll up, put on overalls and start restoring something alongside their colleagues on the weekend and keep an honest face  ?.. I am wondering if there is an  “Irish American” analogy here.., (those supporters who have never flown east of New York),  in that they aren't all turning up that much, but just spend long amounts of time venting online ?

 

Either way, seeing the line, instead of reading about it left a very different impression… the line looks ok to me, plenty of volunteers getting on with it, and a general feeling that services will be back to Minehead and things are on the up.

 

However i think the WSR management would find it hard to misrepresent the fact that one lot of comments (believed to be from an insider so i understand) landed them in very hot water with the Railway Inspectorate who duly descended on the railway to ascertain the truth of what they had been told.  And the Inspectorate subsequently came back with the sort of 'shopping list' of required safety and managerial improvements they required to be made if they were to allow the Railway to continue to operate including the very basic need to actually have the Safety Management Systems they had long been required to have (since 2006).     I have seen instances similar failings, albeit not all at one time, in the past, on other Railways in the leisure/heritage sector.  But at least they had half an excuse that some of the legislation (dating from 2006) was fairly recent and that was also before the HRA got itself into gear and started issuing guidance to their members. 

[pheaton]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I think every major preserved railway has the same problem to some extent, although the low level of donations to the WSR's latest appeal suggests the lack of even moral support for the railway may be spread wider than we'd like to believe.

 

Most railways have one or two individuals who often in the early years of a scheme, get themselves into influential positions, although not always on Boards or Committees.  They can be the ones who own several locomotives that the railway becomes overly dependent on, for example, and have little interest in the public-facing side of operating a railway.  These individuals can be very vocal when they fall out with the railway and believe that most people agree with them, because no-one argues back.  The "offender" wrongly assumes silence to mean acceptance and agreement, when it's really because most people don't enjoy getting into arguments.

 

In these days of social media of course, those who want to avoid an argument still do, but those emboldened behind a keyboard and screen to challenge the accusations, are still likely to be outnumbered by those just as confident to shout them down, so what is left an echo chamber.

I would say that its more likely that the support to the heritage railway sector is suffering from appeal fatigue rather than an issue squared at the WSR itself.

[pheaton]

3 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I think every major preserved railway has the same problem to some extent, although the low level of donations to the WSR's latest appeal suggests the lack of even moral support for the railway may be spread wider than we'd like to believe.

 

Most railways have one or two individuals who often in the early years of a scheme, get themselves into influential positions, although not always on Boards or Committees.  They can be the ones who own several locomotives that the railway becomes overly dependent on, for example, and have little interest in the public-facing side of operating a railway.  These individuals can be very vocal when they fall out with the railway and believe that most people agree with them, because no-one argues back.  The "offender" wrongly assumes silence to mean acceptance and agreement, when it's really because most people don't enjoy getting into arguments.

 

In these days of social media of course, those who want to avoid an argument still do, but those emboldened behind a keyboard and screen to challenge the accusations, are still likely to be outnumbered by those just as confident to shout them down, so what is left an echo chamber.

Everyone on a preserved railway has there own agenda....you all get along fine until your agenda interferes with theirs....

 

Having seen it first hand its a very brave loco owner who thinks that dictating terms on a preserved line will not end in a messy divorce at some-point.....and i have seen steam locomotive owners ejected (even while their locomotive was in ticket) you can push your luck to a point and then something breaks and it ends up with a "Dear john" letter. its not normally difficult to find a loco to replace the one your kicking out....

 

there are portions of the preservation sector that are just like you say northmoor....and these are generally people there from the start thankfully they are rare, and thankfully the incoming generation thats replacing them seem to be a bit more pragmatic....in my experience the original steam preservationists are very resistant to change......like everything it goes in cycles...and im sure the diesel preservationists of my time will be just as cynical when some new youngster gets his bid accepted on a class 66

 

 

 

 

[Northmoor]

50 minutes ago, pheaton said:

there are portions of the preservation sector that are just like you say northmoor....and these are generally people there from the start thankfully they are rare, and thankfully the incoming generation thats replacing them seem to be a bit more pragmatic....in my experience the original steam preservationists are very resistant to change......like everything it goes in cycles...and im sure the diesel preservationists of my time will be just as cynical when some new youngster gets his bid accepted on a class 66

Very true; it tends to be assumed by the Old Guard that young diesel enthusiasts don't like steam and want to compete with it.  This is almost never the case in my experience, if anything they tend to be even more enthusiastic about steam locos, it's just that unlike diesels, they can't afford to buy one.....

 

I can think of more than one scheme which should have been considerably more successful than it has been, because the same people are/were in charge for decades and were still trying to expand using the same operating model and fundraising techniques of 30-40 years ago, simply refusing to accept that the world has changed immeasurably since the pioneer days of the 1970s.  In some cases, when new people finally came on board with a different business plan reflecting the 21st century, they thrived.  In one or two cases, it may have been the first time they had ever had a written business - or indeed any kind of - plan.

[5944]

3 hours ago, pheaton said:

I would say that its more likely that the support to the heritage railway sector is suffering from appeal fatigue rather than an issue squared at the WSR itself.

Others are doing OK. 

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=4354534771271408&id=162410517150542

 

Aln Valley Railway set up an appeal for £100,000 for a viaduct in April 2021, and have pretty much reached that target already. WSR have raised a fraction of that, and that's with the use of some creative accounting.