West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[brianusa]

21 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

And all of them are too long!

Probably not for the enthusiast but for families with young children - a lot of "are we there yets"!

    Brian.

 

[brianusa]

12 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

"Short Line" is a legal term in the USA based on a Railroad's annual revenue. It is not a description of how long the railroad is.

Many Short Lines have total trackage miles greater than some of the TOCs in the UK. The difference being that US Railroads are mainly freight oriented, whereas even a 'small' TOC in the UK might be running an intensive commuter service every day.

 

Depends where you are; here 100 miles is considered not very far as a lot of commutes are longer.  The biggest problem with a long ride is that you have to come home by which time people get tired, kids get antsy and even enthusiasts have been known to fall asleep.  Its a full day!

     Brian.

[RJS1977]

1 hour ago, brianusa said:

 

Depends where you are; here 100 miles is considered not very far as a lot of commutes are longer.  The biggest problem with a long ride is that you have to come home by which time people get tired, kids get antsy and even enthusiasts have been known to fall asleep.  Its a full day!

     Brian.

 

Although of course if you have a passing place partway, or even an intermediate station with some other attraction nearby, and offer suitable part-way fares, people don't have to spend all day on the train if they don't want to.

[Bucoops]

On 31/05/2021 at 13:52, Bucoops said:

We are booked to go to Butlins (ugh!) later in the year with the plan to ride the WSR. Might look to move it to next year (it was already moved from last year...).

 

Well we ended up going. Usually go First class on preserved railways when available for 2 reasons - 1) we like our own space and 2) it means a little extra money for the railway. No first class available but they are doing private compartments for £150 for up to 6 people so we did that.

 

The bus ride from Minehead to Dunster was quite nice, but of course we would have preferred to have been on the train for the whole journey.

 

I have no particular interest in GWR origin things so didn't take a great deal of notice of what was around. The restored sleeping car at the other end was nice though. It was only after I got home that I realised the number on the loco we had didn't make sense - so I googled it and found it used to be a tank engine. Where did they find the tender for it, or did they build that?

 

We had the entire compartment coach to ourselves (only used one compartment of course so they didn't have to clean extra areas). In fact the train was very lightly loaded. When we passed the one going in the other direction that looked a lot more occupied.

 

It's a nice line, loads of lovely scenery. All the staff were jolly and helpful and polite. Hopefully  they can overcome their current issues, although it's unlikely we will venture that way again as Butlins was predictably rubbish, and the WSR is just too GWR'y for me (which is my problem no theirs!).

 

 

 

 

[ikcdab]

57 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

Well we ended up going. Usually go First class on preserved railways when available for 2 reasons - 1) we like our own space and 2) it means a little extra money for the railway. No first class available but they are doing private compartments for £150 for up to 6 people so we did that.

 

The bus ride from Minehead to Dunster was quite nice, but of course we would have preferred to have been on the train for the whole journey.

 

I have no particular interest in GWR origin things so didn't take a great deal of notice of what was around. The restored sleeping car at the other end was nice though. It was only after I got home that I realised the number on the loco we had didn't make sense - so I googled it and found it used to be a tank engine. Where did they find the tender for it, or did they build that?

 

We had the entire compartment coach to ourselves (only used one compartment of course so they didn't have to clean extra areas). In fact the train was very lightly loaded. When we passed the one going in the other direction that looked a lot more occupied.

 

It's a nice line, loads of lovely scenery. All the staff were jolly and helpful and polite. Hopefully  they can overcome their current issues, although it's unlikely we will venture that way again as Butlins was predictably rubbish, and the WSR is just too GWR'y for me (which is my problem no theirs!).

 

 

 

 

Glad you had a great time. I have been a volunteer on the WSR for many many years and have seen it through all sorts of issues. They are to be convgratulated on making a virtue out of a problem with the heritage busses. Whilst we would all prefer to stay on the train, the busses have gone down very well indeed. The open top ride has been very popular. 

Yes 9351 used to be 5193. All work done at Minehead. A true GWR "might have been". A very useful engine indeed. I can't remember now where the tender came from. 

Ian C

 

[rab]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

 

Well we ended up going. Usually go First class on preserved railways when available for 2 reasons - 1) we like our own space and 2) it means a little extra money for the railway. No first class available but they are doing private compartments for £150 for up to 6 people so we did that.

 

The bus ride from Minehead to Dunster was quite nice, but of course we would have preferred to have been on the train for the whole journey.

 

I have no particular interest in GWR origin things so didn't take a great deal of notice of what was around. The restored sleeping car at the other end was nice though. It was only after I got home that I realised the number on the loco we had didn't make sense - so I googled it and found it used to be a tank engine. Where did they find the tender for it, or did they build that?

 

We had the entire compartment coach to ourselves (only used one compartment of course so they didn't have to clean extra areas). In fact the train was very lightly loaded. When we passed the one going in the other direction that looked a lot more occupied.

 

It's a nice line, loads of lovely scenery. All the staff were jolly and helpful and polite. Hopefully  they can overcome their current issues, although it's unlikely we will venture that way again as Butlins was predictably rubbish, and the WSR is just too GWR'y for me (which is my problem no theirs!).

 

 

 

 

Some background here:

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/5846-2/

[Bucoops]

28 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

Glad you had a great time. I have been a volunteer on the WSR for many many years and have seen it through all sorts of issues. They are to be convgratulated on making a virtue out of a problem with the heritage busses. Whilst we would all prefer to stay on the train, the busses have gone down very well indeed. The open top ride has been very popular. 

Yes 9351 used to be 5193. All work done at Minehead. A true GWR "might have been". A very useful engine indeed. I can't remember now where the tender came from. 

Ian C

 

 

I did want to go on the open top one but was overruled - the SWMBO and mini SWMBO get cold easily

 

I did overhear the crew when changing over telling the new crew it was steaming very well, and it did sound nice when working hard. Still a weird copper capped thing to me though, tender behind or otherwise  

 

Certainly no complaints - the coaches were in good comfortable condition, the stations were all well kept and as I said everyone was very friendly.

 

 

[Bucoops]

30 minutes ago, rab said:

Some background here:

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/5846-2/

 

Thanks - a good job was certainly done as to the untrained eye the only thing that seemed "off" was the number was very high, and I did notice the cabside number plates had WSR cast into them - but I just assumed that was to "prove" they weren't originals to deter thieves.

[slow8dirty]

On 28/08/2021 at 15:59, ikcdab said:

Glad you had a great time. I have been a volunteer on the WSR for many many years and have seen it through all sorts of issues. They are to be convgratulated on making a virtue out of a problem with the heritage busses. Whilst we would all prefer to stay on the train, the busses have gone down very well indeed. The open top ride has been very popular. 

Yes 9351 used to be 5193. All work done at Minehead. A true GWR "might have been". A very useful engine indeed. I can't remember now where the tender came from. 

Ian C

 

We have just returned from a day out on our local line after far too long away and can only echo bucoops' experience of the line. Was dubious at first about the bus issue, but the way the day is operated and ticketed it actually makes a fun addition to the day (And I hate busses)

And for those not of a Western persuasion the TSO we returned on apparently is an ex west highland vehicle, so I count that as layout research. Well done to all on the line.

[Steamport Southport]

On 28/08/2021 at 15:59, ikcdab said:

Glad you had a great time. I have been a volunteer on the WSR for many many years and have seen it through all sorts of issues. They are to be convgratulated on making a virtue out of a problem with the heritage busses. Whilst we would all prefer to stay on the train, the busses have gone down very well indeed. The open top ride has been very popular. 

Yes 9351 used to be 5193. All work done at Minehead. A true GWR "might have been". A very useful engine indeed. I can't remember now where the tender came from. 

Ian C

 

 

Not all of it.....

 

It already had quite a lot of work done at Southport. There's twenty years of information missing from the Preserved Steam page.

 

No mention that it was a TV star for example.

 

 

True story was the tanks, cab and bunker were totally knackered. They were due to go to Cammell Lairds shipyard to be rebuilt by apprentices as part of a training scheme but due to closure of the yard they went for scrap. The tanks were outside Southport shed for years. Slowly showing the previous liveries.

 

It could have been restored properly if they wanted.

 

Tender is a cut down 4000 Gallon masquerading as a 3000 Gallon Collett.

 

http://www.ten.rhrp.org.uk/tens/TenderInfo.asp?Ref=67

 

 

Jason

[MarkC]

In fairness, as a loco for the WSR, 9351 is a better option than 5193, if only for its water capacity. I also suspect that the cost of renewing cab, bunker & tanks would have been more than the cost of modifying/refurbishing the tender she now runs with. (Also, no trailing pony truck to fettle either).

 

The fact that it can make certain 'purists' go apoplectic is a bonus, in the eyes of some... 

Edited September 1, 2021 by MarkC

[adb968008]

On 21/08/2021 at 12:40, rodent279 said:

Interesting you say that, and I'm glad you did, because I was afraid to. I was suspecting that some of the "problem" volunteers may be those with a professional railway background, not just those armchair enthusiasts who think they know it all because they've read a book.

Leadership, training and education are delicate arts, and criticism, when it is offered, has to be done in the right way. The manner in which criticism is delivered is all the difference between the message being taken on board, and someone taking offence and walking off.

Leadership and Management are not unique traits of a professional railway background.

 

indeed I think I often see less of it on railways than in other industries, when it comes to the customer facing end.

 

However what I think you are actually trying to say is its too easy to have an obsession of control, when what is needed is influence to make a difference. The skillset of influence and persuasion can be applied to all levels of the hierarchy, not just the upper ones, and applied both up and down that hierarchy… its a good management and leadership that recognises when that influence is being pushed up to them, recognise it and act accordingly, but also recognising that “doing nothing” is also a valid action.

 

Indeed its very often a demonstration of bad management that “knows best” and uses “control” when acting against advice being passed up…of course though its a balance, and competing influences may not always have the whole vision or wider awareness that leadership has, resulting in misunderstanding and conflict.
 

if I were to apply this to the WSR situation, I think whats missing is a focal point for everyone to coalesce around, and a vision* that is clear and easy to understand. With such a thing, everyone can rally round to that goal..or not depending on their personal choice.

 

*vision= What the shareholders want the WSR to be.

 

Right now reading the many lines written, I suspect a lot of people dont see a vision and think “The End” is coming. Others don’t understand it (myself included), some just want to wait and see, and its leading to mistrust. That mistrust is probably not unique to one side or one hierarchy level in this situation. (Also known as losing the plot and disagreeing whats next).
 

Coming off my fence on that particular point..but it is a leadership quality to recognise that influence (that feels negative to me, but could be wholly positive depending on the vision.. that I dont know) and if necessary, respond to influence* change for it to be inline with the goal and vision.

 

* respond= remind people what its all about, with a specific wording that makes sense to each different audience reader.

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, MarkC said:

In fairness, as a loco for the WSR, 9351 is a better option than 5193, if only for its water capacity. I also suspect that the cost of renewing cab, bunker & tanks would have been more than the cost of modifying/refurbishing the tender she now runs with. (Also, no trailing pony truck to fettle either).

 

IIRC that was exactly the thinking behind the conversion. I understand the GWR had it in mind to build a small number of similar locomotives in the late thirties, which might have seen the light of day but for WW2.

 

I've always considered it rather neat that the number is just a rearrangement of the original and quite possibly what would have been carried by the first of the  class had one emerged. Kismet?

 

It's also rather a good little engine, so what's not to like?

 

John 

[adb968008]

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

The fact that it can make certain 'purists' go apoplectic is a bonus, in the eyes of some... 

I wish there was more creativity like this in the hobby.

 

A Castle in LMS form, as planned, would be a nice sight to see, theres no shortage of them in preservation.

Edited September 1, 2021 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

On 28/08/2021 at 15:57, Bucoops said:

Well we ended up going. Usually go First class on preserved railways when available for 2 reasons - 1) we like our own space and 2) it means a little extra money for the railway. No first class available but they are doing private compartments for £150 for up to 6 people so we did that.

An admirable attitude, if I may say so. Well done!

[MarkC]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I wish there was more creativity like this in the hobby.

 

Indeed so.

 

It also demonstrates how the GW's standardisation system could be employed. Need a loco for a specific traffic flow? Just shake the box of parts & watch what comes out 

[Northmoor]

17 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Indeed so.

 

It also demonstrates how the GW's standardisation system could be employed. Need a loco for a specific traffic flow? Just shake the box of parts & watch what comes out 

Agreed - it's why I have little or no objection to the GWS's (and others') recreations of extinct GWR types using parts from other engines.  It helps tell the complete story of GWR locomotive development.  The locos "sacrificed" have just been rebuilt in a different form in my view, instead of being restored to look identical to half a dozen others in their class.  Most of which will be out of ticket because their is little enthusiasm for overhauling a loco when there are "half a dozen others in their class".

[adb968008]

Dont forget the Bluebell, with their plan to make an 84xxx from a 78xxx.

 

The missing link in BR stds is 77xxx, but a BR std 2-8-2 would be interesting.

 

“Far out there” for creativity could be a Stanier 4MT 2-6-0, which could be useful for a preserved line, but as there isnt a Stanier 2-6-4T preserved thats likely to work again, there is still a bit more of a gap there to fill already before going into totally creative ideas…

 

stick with the 84xxx for now 

Edited September 1, 2021 by adb968008

[MarkC]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Dont forget the Bluebell, with their plan to make an 84xxx from a 78xxx.

 

The missing link in BR stds is 77xxx, but a BR std 2-8-2 would be interesting.

 

 

Absolutely. Well done to the Bluebell. As I understand it, their donor loco came from Barry without a tender, so this makes sense, especially as there are other 78xxx preserved, and the 84xxx was extinct.

 

There was a plan to build a new 77xxx, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. It was suggested that the remains of 76077 be used as the basis for a new 77xxx too, the chassis being pretty much identical, but I see that 76077 will now be restored in her own right.

 

Didn't someone seriously propose producing a 2-8-2 from the remains of an ex-Barry 9F?

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

*vision= What the shareholders want the WSR to be.

 

Given the situation they find themselves in, what they probably most desire is continued solvency.

[PenrithBeacon]

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

Indeed so.

 

It also demonstrates how the GW's standardisation system could be employed. Need a loco for a specific traffic flow? Just shake the box of parts & watch what comes out 

It wasn't specific to the GWR! The concept was invented in the late 1860s by Joseph Whitworth and its first use in railways was, I think, by Ramsbottom. Other British railways took it up in the early 1870s.

Although Dean gets a lot of stick because of his experimental locos, he too was a great exponent of standardised components. 

[Bucoops]

On 01/09/2021 at 10:37, Dunsignalling said:

 

It's also rather a good little engine, so what's not to like?

 

 

It's not LNER? 

[Bucoops]

On 01/09/2021 at 11:42, Oldddudders said:

An admirable attitude, if I may say so. Well done!

 

Thanks

 

Bluebell and IOWSR in 2019

 

 

[The Johnster]

On 28/08/2021 at 16:32, Bucoops said:

Still a weird copper capped thing

In a sense weirder than you might have thought, Bucoops.  If you consider this loco as a version of the 43xx, which was pretty much the same thing but with a different, larger, boiler, the bigger loco had a cast iron chimney cap and a flared chimney; this loco is a rebuild of a large prairie and thus retains the usual large prairie's copper capped parallel chimney.

 

Mini-SWMBO looks to be in her element!

[Bucoops]

She always says she doesn't like trains but whenever we go on one....