West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[RJS1977]

TBH whilst I've seen a number of other railways making appeals on social media in the last 18 months, I haven't seen any appeals from the WSR on SM. Obviously the better publicised an appeal is, the more money it can attract.

[pheaton]

7 hours ago, 5944 said:

Others are doing OK. 

 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=4354534771271408&id=162410517150542

 

Aln Valley Railway set up an appeal for £100,000 for a viaduct in April 2021, and have pretty much reached that target already. WSR have raised a fraction of that, and that's with the use of some creative accounting. 

But look at those appeals closer....

 

all valley railway....realistic target (to the joe public) and a defined outcome.....we need 100k to fix our viaduct....all the hallmarks of a successful appeal...

 

WSR our business isn't viable in the long term.....we need a massive cash injection on top of what we had from he government.....finger in the air....million quid should do it....in the midst of some very very very public spats with other groups....

 

not only can you not see a difference when you put your money in the tin.....which means if you think its not going to make a difference you won't donate.....but also.....theres no indication of what it will be spent on...if im not mistaken the WSR had one the largest wage bills in preservation.....by an incredible margin...

 

its all very well bleating you might close....but llangollen has already proved......the preservation movement will tolerate it.......

 

fact remains they haven't invested in the infrastructure...and its come back to bite them...ive taken 26043 over some very dodgy track....but ive not taken it to any other railway that has double digit tie bars over the next 4 track panels you about to travel over!

 

 

[johnofwessex]

Personally I think that the WSR is doomed unless there is a change in the lines structure to bring it more into linewith other heritage railways

 

BUT that is something neither the PLC or WSHRT management will agree to

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, pheaton said:

...ive taken 26043 over some very dodgy track....but ive not taken it to any other railway that has double digit tie bars over the next 4 track panels you about to travel over!

 

 

You obviously didn't do Stockport platform 1 in Railtrack days. Around the time of the Hatfield derailment it had a tie bar every third sleeper.  

Edited August 17, 2021 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

You obviously didn't do Stockport platform 1 in Railtrack days. Around the time of the Hatfield derailment it had a tie bar every third sleeper.  

And it was not alone in that sort of thing in Railtrack land.  However as far as the WSR is concerned some poor track maintenance was really nothing more than a symptom of some serious managerial structural problems which affected a lot more than the track.

Edited August 17, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[Michael Hodgson]

I would be even more worried they hadn't bothered to put the tie bars onto the ropey track in the first place.

[Oldddudders]

It's all relative of course. If you wish to run mainline locos, you probably need p way maintained to mainline standards. On the other hand....

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

15 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

It's all relative of course. If you wish to run mainline locos, you probably need p way maintained to mainline standards

 

I'll raise you a Class 47

Hednesford in 1981. Spot the stop block. At that time the line was used for Class 1 drags for about three or four months of the year when Wolverhampton to Stafford was blocked for weekend engineering work.

[Bucoops]

8 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

I'll raise you a Class 47

Hednesford in 1981. Spot the stop block. At that time the line was used for Class 1 drags for about three or four months of the year when Wolverhampton to Stafford was blocked for weekend engineering work.

 

I must be more tired than I thought - I read that as was used for Class 1 drugs....

[PenrithBeacon]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And it was not alone in that sort of thing in Railtrack land.  However as far as the WSR is concerned some poor track maintenance was really nothing more than a symptom of some serious managerial structural problems which affected a lot more than the track.

And even after the track is sorted there is still the issue of whether bridges and culverts will be happy with such as Class 47s passing over them.

[Ian J.]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

 

I must be more tired than I thought - I read that as was used for Class 1 drugs....

 

What do you think's growing between the rails...? 

[adb968008]

On 16/08/2021 at 17:11, Northmoor said:

I think every major preserved railway has the same problem to some extent, although the low level of donations to the WSR's latest appeal suggests the lack of even moral support for the railway may be spread wider than we'd like to believe.

 

Most railways have one or two individuals who often in the early years of a scheme, get themselves into influential positions, although not always on Boards or Committees.  They can be the ones who own several locomotives that the railway becomes overly dependent on, for example, and have little interest in the public-facing side of operating a railway.  These individuals can be very vocal when they fall out with the railway and believe that most people agree with them, because no-one argues back.  The "offender" wrongly assumes silence to mean acceptance and agreement, when it's really because most people don't enjoy getting into arguments.

 

In these days of social media of course, those who want to avoid an argument still do, but those emboldened behind a keyboard and screen to challenge the accusations, are still likely to be outnumbered by those just as confident to shout them down, so what is left an echo chamber.

being generic (as I don’t know the specifics of WSR), but from what I’ve seen of several preserved lines and loco groups..

 

I think it’s a failure of preservation to recognise the contributions of those that saved the various lines, locos etc across the country, when changing the governance, via a simple vote, that condemns someone’s lifetimes efforts to nought.   it’s a lack of respect for history that probably draws the ire of those now ousted without consideration and turn them against a cause. 20 years ago that voice was more limited, but today the internet makes it loud. strangers, New comers immediately settle and start their own ideas and agendas… it’s always conflict and nearly every line and group seems to have it at some point.

 

 I’ve seen more petty small pond disputes in preservation than any other walk of life, which is why I stay out of preservation and to be honest, I’m amazed at what preservation has achieve considering those disputes… model railways is much more civilised.

 

Coming round to WSR… the low levels of donations, my guess is my own experience, 2000 pages of destructive comments for years, on a forum that pertains to suggest it actually helps railway preservation.. How is that healthy ?

that would put me off straight away (indeed it has for years, until I happened to go by chance the other week and was wondering what I would find). I’ve not seen a summary explanation anywhere and I suspect at this point no one knows what the problem is, it’s just a damaging squabble.

 

I’d suggest people goto WSR before reading about it, I found it no different to most other well developed lines - I don’t know what the fuss is about and maybe it’s better that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by adb968008

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, Ian J. said:

 

What do you think's growing between the rails...? 

Around 2003 I had decided my retirement date and was sometimes travelling to meetings around the country from my future retirement home whilst we finalised the sale of our house close to the office. Sometimes I drove to Dinting to catch the train into Manchester. One morning a neighbour who caught the same train pointed out a cannabis plant growing in the disused trackbed on the Glossop side of the triangle.

[roythebus1]

9 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

It's all relative of course. If you wish to run mainline locos, you probably need p way maintained to mainline standards. On the other hand....

 

Looks a bit like the TTA in Belgium, which has recently been badly damaged by the floods in the area. quite what the damage is hasn't been reported yet. but I digress.

 

 

[roythebus1]

On 09/08/2021 at 10:09, woodenhead said:

Good news on the West Somerset:

http://www.wsr.org.uk/news.htm#2365

 

People returned to the railway in greater numbers than anticipated, nearly double the budgeted fare income plus other positives, turned a budgeted loss for the month into a small profit.

 

Green shoots....

Going at a slight tangent, I note from the K&ESR FB page that their passengers numbers have exceeded all expectations with the first trains from Tenterden being fully loaded, and passengers  joining at Bodiam at record levels. I gather the IWSR is also experiencing the same sort of luck despite the problems with the other Island railway.

[RJS1977]

9 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Going at a slight tangent, I note from the K&ESR FB page that their passengers numbers have exceeded all expectations with the first trains from Tenterden being fully loaded, and passengers  joining at Bodiam at record levels. I gather the IWSR is also experiencing the same sort of luck despite the problems with the other Island railway.

 

Cholsey & Wallingford are doing pretty well too - most trains are fully booked (albeit with only two coaches in use and still running at 50% capacity in the TSO), and pre-booked on-train catering has also been more successful than expected. The number of bookings for this year's Polar Express have already exceeded the total number of passengers carried in 2019!

 

We were also fortunate in that last year we were able to hire out the line for testing/training of on-track monitoring equipment which not only helped with the shortfall in income, but also means we probably have more data on our track than most other lines. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

Cholsey & Wallingford are doing pretty well too - most trains are fully booked (albeit with only two coaches in use and still running at 50% capacity in the TSO), and pre-booked on-train catering has also been more successful than expected. The number of bookings for this year's Polar Express have already exceeded the total number of passengers carried in 2019!

 

We were also fortunate in that last year we were able to hire out the line for testing/training of on-track monitoring equipment which not only helped with the shortfall in income, but also means we probably have more data on our track than most other lines. 

So you should do quite well with what is coming this winter   Hope the level crossing work is proceeding well as it looked to n me as if a considerable lift might be needed on the westbound road carriageway when I passed that way a few weeks back; definitely a lot bumpier than it used to be so I wonder if construction traffic is to blame?

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

being generic (as I don’t know the specifics of WSR), but from what I’ve seen of several preserved lines and loco groups..

 

I think it’s a failure of preservation to recognise the contributions of those that saved the various lines, locos etc across the country, when changing the governance, via a simple vote, that condemns someone’s lifetimes efforts to nought.   it’s a lack of respect for history that probably draws the ire of those now ousted without consideration and turn them against a cause. 20 years ago that voice was more limited, but today the internet makes it loud. strangers, New comers immediately settle and start their own ideas and agendas… it’s always conflict and nearly every line and group seems to have it at some point.

 

 I’ve seen more petty small pond disputes in preservation than any other walk of life, which is why I stay out of preservation and to be honest, I’m amazed at what preservation has achieve considering those disputes… model railways is much more civilised.

 

Coming round to WSR… the low levels of donations, my guess is my own experience, 2000 pages of destructive comments for years, on a forum that pertains to suggest it actually helps railway preservation.. How is that healthy ?

that would put me off straight away (indeed it has for years, until I happened to go by chance the other week and was wondering what I would find). I’ve not seen a summary explanation anywhere and I suspect at this point no one knows what the problem is, it’s just a damaging squabble.

 

I’d suggest people goto WSR before reading about it, I found it no different to most other well developed lines - I don’t know what the fuss is about and maybe it’s better that way.

 

Regrettably I think politics almost inevitably seems ti rear its head in railway preservation circles. Usually it seem to be due to conflicting aims of those involved and because people are different then differences will arise and it can sometimes get nasty.   The Mid Hants went through a very rocky period that was even hitting local tv news headlines so was well know to umpteen people who had probably never even heard of teh railway - no need for the 'net to spread that less than wonderful news.

 

The WSR seems to have suffered more of it than many (most) other lines and it goes back a long way with a considerable 'gap' in perception and ideas between the PLC and the Association no doubt not helped by a few loud mouths (on both sides??).  The basic situation is really very simple for a railway of the size of the WSR - it has to be run as a carefully managed business with a clear commercial outlook in order to be successful - as we saw a long time ago on the SVR that sort of approach (voiced there very strongly in a magazine article by Michael Draper the Railway's then GM) does sometimes not go down at all weel with 'preservationists who can sometimes tend to see a railway as 'their' personal playground.  I know of one railway which is run - extremely well - as a family owned business and which got rid of all the volunteer groups although it does accept some people as volunteers to work on the railway - but on the management's terms; it works well and is a very professional, profitable, operation.

 

But professional management and volunteers can lead to conflict and volunteers are far from easy to manage as a workforce - get that wrong and you will have trouble.  the other problem - which seems to be at the root of some of what has hgine on on the WSR is that a professional management has to be seen to be exactly that - professional in every respect when it comes to running not only a business but in the crucially important matter of safely running a railway.  It has been very clear that the railway's management was lacking in the latter respect and that too prompted reactions against its methods and behaviour and perhaps contributed to some people having (and expressing?) a negative opinion of that management especially if it would not listen to what it was being told about its various 'shortcomings' and how to rectify them.

 

The WSR is undeniably a very attractive railway in an important tourist area (where many years ago I was a member of an official tourist promotion committee  which I made sure saw and promoted the WSR as part of its tourist attractiveness).  Apart from the 'bread & butter' tourist business it can also offer considerable attractions to the railway enthusiast customer with not only a good mix of traction but a long train ride to destinations which are - in their various ways - attractive in themselves.   And I can understand the frustration of thsoe who see all this but can't see the railway fully exploiting  the markets it has on its doorstep - that too results in criticism of the management.

 

the important question is can it all be brought back together by properly reconciling the various viewpoints involved?  In my view it can but that will only happen if people, on all sides, are prepared to make it happen and t accept some of the compromises that would involve.  The railway is too long to survive without major volunteer input but volunteers always need to be treeated ina way which makes them feel valued rather than just being foot soldiers at the behest of all and sundry.  And nobody who truly supports the railway likes to see things being done the expensive way - such as a local building contractor being brought in to relay track at Minehead station -when it could be done at far less cost by properly organised volunteers.

[RJS1977]

Agree with pretty much everything Stationmaster's said there.

 

Whilst the older generation of preservationists have undoubtedly done a lot for their railways (and many still have a lot to offer if managed correctly), times have moved on and new legislation means that what may have been an acceptable way of running a railway 10,20,30 years ago may be far from acceptable now. 

 

The challenge is arranging a hand-over of the reins in such a way that the older preservationists still feel they are valued by the railway, whilst still allowing the necessary improvements to take place.

[TheSignalEngineer]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

But professional management and volunteers can lead to conflict and volunteers are far from easy to manage as a workforce -

My wife had a job where the organisation was controlled by volunteers who all seemed to be stuck in 1956 and she was the only professional business person and administrator trying to drag it into the 21st century. An absolute nightmare, and her successors are still struggling to achieve it nearly 20 years after she left.

[rodent279]

I know it's a rather different scenario, but I wonder if there are any lessons that the preservation movement could learn from the success of parkrun.

(For those who don't know, parkrun is an almost entirely volunteer run organisation, that organises 5K runs in parks (as the name suggests) that are completely free and open to all comers. There is a small full-time paid staff, I don't know how many, but I don't think it's more that a dozen or so, and funding comes from commercial sponsorship. Several thousand events are run weekly, in about a dozen countries, with weekly participation of upwards of 100,000 runners.)

[phil-b259]

On 17/08/2021 at 18:25, adb968008 said:

 

I’d suggest people goto WSR before reading about it, I found it no different to most other well developed lines - I don’t know what the fuss is about and maybe it’s better that way.

 

 

Many would have said the same about the Llangollen - but that didn't stop the PLC running out of money and going bankrupt did it!

 

Thats the point - it doesn't matter how well run it might look on the surface - if the underlying structure is losing money there comes a point when the banks will pull the plug and no amount of 'well it looks OK when I visited' is going to make any difference.

 

Alienating volunteers (thus being overly reliant on paid staff), having the ORR threaten to close you down (and thats what would have happened had the WSR not gone and pulled the plug on operations voluntarily a couple of years back) plus the whole situation with the S&DJR Trust at Washford are not signs of a healthy business however good things may look on the surface to the casual visitor.

 

I doubt anyone wants the WSR to go under - but thats ultimately where its heading unless the PLC (and to a lesser extent the Trust) eat some humble pie and admit they have got things spectacularly wrong over the past few years. Heritage Railways (outside of a couple of exceptional cases) simply cannot financially survive without volunteers supporting them - and thats not going to happen if the overriding impression is one of arrogance and mismanagement at the top.

 

 

Oh and while on the subject of PLCs, there are a number of other Heritage Railway PLCs which could do with taking a long hard look at how the way operate / their relations with respect to their volunteer workforce...

[woodenhead]

12 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I know it's a rather different scenario, but I wonder if there are any lessons that the preservation movement could learn from the success of parkrun.

(For those who don't know, parkrun is an almost entirely volunteer run organisation, that organises 5K runs in parks (as the name suggests) that are completely free and open to all comers. There is a small full-time paid staff, I don't know how many, but I don't think it's more that a dozen or so, and funding comes from commercial sponsorship. Several thousand events are run weekly, in about a dozen countries, with weekly participation of upwards of 100,000 runners.)

Parkrun has quite low costs - it uses public spaces free of charge, volunteers do all the advertising via social media and whilst it supplied some equipment my experience is that a lot of it has been gathered by the volunteers themselves at each run.

 

It would not work on anything that involved maintaining infrastructure.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I know it's a rather different scenario, but I wonder if there are any lessons that the preservation movement could learn from the success of parkrun.

(For those who don't know, parkrun is an almost entirely volunteer run organisation, that organises 5K runs in parks (as the name suggests) that are completely free and open to all comers. There is a small full-time paid staff, I don't know how many, but I don't think it's more that a dozen or so, and funding comes from commercial sponsorship. Several thousand events are run weekly, in about a dozen countries, with weekly participation of upwards of 100,000 runners.)

As already noted by 'Woodenhead' Parkrun is not having to maintain an expensive infrastructure - which in turn relies on revenue generation of large sums of money.  Secondly I doubt if it has much chance of killing or injuring people - both workers and 'customers' - if it fails to maintain a disciplined approach to everything it does including not only maintenance of infrastructure but also of its trains and locos (right down to proper control of raw materials and components used in their maintenance and repair) and a very high level of compliance with  numerous laws and Regulations affecting the safety of both its workers and customers.  

 

Putting it very simply if a heritage/preserved railway doesn't get things right it runs a risk of killing somebody with all the consequences that would unfortunately bring.   I was worried to discover some years ago following a volunteer fatality on one such railway that the HRA had to put out advice on safety procedures to its members which apart from common sense not only struck me as obvious but which I had been writing into Rules and procedures for some railways for years past going right back to the 1980s.  That, if nothing else, showed just how easy it is to miss something very basic if you don't know what you are doing or your training is not up to the mark.

[rodent279]

I was thinking more of lessons in terms of relationships with the volunteer community, than actual running of things.