West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[The Stationmaster]

12 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

I was thinking more of lessons in terms of relationships with the volunteer community, than actual running of things.

Good point but the two things have to go together on a railway and that is often where conflict arises.  For example some volunteers utter the words along the lines of  'I come here to enjoy myself so why do I have to comply with these Rules about what I have to do when cutting grass on an embankment and why should I tell you which prescription drugs I am taking?'

 

Now there is obviously a communication issue because the volunteer might not understand why he/she is required (by law) to tell you about any prescription drugs they are taking and that needs to be explained rather than just asking them for details of the drugs.  Similarly they might not understand why they are subject to various Rules when cutting grass on an embankment and the fact that those Rules are there for their own protection, the protection of others, compliance with legal requirements and - quite likely - the railway's insurance policies.  But even with the best will of explanation in the world there are still a few who regard the way they spend their free time, and donate their labour free of charge, as very much their business and not that of anybody else.

 

Managing taht sort of relationship can be very difficult but the volunteers need to understand that it has to be managed - and for many that can be difficult. 

[Northmoor]

10 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Good point but the two things have to go together on a railway and that is often where conflict arises.  For example some volunteers utter the words along the lines of  'I come here to enjoy myself so why do I have to comply with these Rules about what I have to do when cutting grass on an embankment and why should I tell you which prescription drugs I am taking?'

 

Now there is obviously a communication issue because the volunteer might not understand why he/she is required (by law) to tell you about any prescription drugs they are taking and that needs to be explained rather than just asking them for details of the drugs.  Similarly they might not understand why they are subject to various Rules when cutting grass on an embankment and the fact that those Rules are there for their own protection, the protection of others, compliance with legal requirements and - quite likely - the railway's insurance policies.  But even with the best will of explanation in the world there are still a few who regard the way they spend their free time, and donate their labour free of charge, as very much their business and not that of anybody else.

 

Managing taht sort of relationship can be very difficult but the volunteers need to understand that it has to be managed - and for many that can be difficult. 

Well put and in my (all too limited, I admit) experience, the worst behaved in this respect are a minority of members of the Old Guard.  

 

I often think this is because as railway enthusiasts, we think the railway (all railways) belong to "us".  Therefore a "Normal" who stands with his young child to see a steam special is an idiot, but as enthusiasts we know about railways so it's OK for us to stand in the cess with a camera tripod.  It's also why the volunteer doing the mowing thinks he's working on his railway so who is anyone to tell them what or how to do it.  Except it isn't their railway, they are working on someone else's property.  You can be certain if someone else volunteered to mow their lawn for them, they would ask what they were going to do and how.

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

...

It's also why the volunteer doing the mowing thinks he's working on his railway so who is anyone to tell them what or how to do it.  Except it isn't their railway, they are working on someone else's property.  You can be certain if someone else volunteered to mow their lawn for them, they would ask what they were going to do and how.

So, I wonder what is the status of members here? 

I have a problem with the attitude expressed in this post, because it is precisely because the volunteers think the railway is theirs that they turn up in all weathers to do the things that need to be done. This isn't to say that there are H&S issues that need to be addressed (and most members/volunteers do address them), but it is very much because the PLC  behave badly that the WSR got into the poo it's now in. The infighting is very much a consequence of the poor leadership from the PLC

[Northmoor]

41 minutes ago, PenrithBeacon said:

So, I wonder what is the status of members here? 

I have a problem with the attitude expressed in this post, because it is precisely because the volunteers think the railway is theirs that they turn up in all weathers to do the things that need to be done. This isn't to say that there are H&S issues that need to be addressed (and most members/volunteers do address them), but it is very much because the PLC  behave badly that the WSR got into the poo it's now in. The infighting is very much a consequence of the poor leadership from the PLC

I don't disagree with your point, but there is big difference between feeling a part of an organisation because you share its aims, and feeling so much a part of an organisation that you have the right to work contrary to its policies.

[009 micro modeller]

17 hours ago, rodent279 said:

I know it's a rather different scenario, but I wonder if there are any lessons that the preservation movement could learn from the success of parkrun.

(For those who don't know, parkrun is an almost entirely volunteer run organisation, that organises 5K runs in parks (as the name suggests) that are completely free and open to all comers. There is a small full-time paid staff, I don't know how many, but I don't think it's more that a dozen or so, and funding comes from commercial sponsorship. Several thousand events are run weekly, in about a dozen countries, with weekly participation of upwards of 100,000 runners.)

 

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Parkrun has quite low costs - it uses public spaces free of charge, volunteers do all the advertising via social media and whilst it supplied some equipment my experience is that a lot of it has been gathered by the volunteers themselves at each run.

 

It would not work on anything that involved maintaining infrastructure.

 

I would have thought that the skill level and training required would also be a major differentiating factor. The ability to have one-off or infrequent volunteering in parkrun and other community volunteering projects is an advantage, but something that I can’t see safely working on an operating railway.

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, PenrithBeacon said:

it is precisely because the volunteers think the railway is theirs that they turn up in all weathers to do the things that need to be done.

 

I volunteer at a local (non-railway) heritage site, where I do feel valued as a volunteer yet don’t really feel that I have “ownership” of it. However, I’m happy with this dynamic as long as I don’t feel like I’m being taken advantage of as free labour (perceptions of which I think would depend on how commercial/charitable the organisation appears to be).

 

On the other hand, I previously volunteered for another (unrelated) organisation which was more volunteer-led, where I was quite involved in determining the direction of my part of it, and where it was annoying to be told what to do by paid staff who were trying to implement wider policies while not really understanding what the volunteers needed day to day. But I was much more willing to put extra time into this project to keep it going than with the one described above.

 

I don’t really understand the full situation at the West Somerset or have an opinion on it but I wonder whether the more general ‘problem’ with heritage railways is that they were often initially set up by volunteers, so are/were volunteer-led, but have now expanded to the point where paid staff and a more businesslike approach are needed to operate safely and sustainably.

[rodent279]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

 

I would have thought that the skill level and training required would also be a major differentiating factor. The ability to have one-off or infrequent volunteering in parkrun and other community volunteering projects is an advantage, but something that I can’t see safely working on an operating railway.

Agreed, but as I said in response to the stationmaster above, I was thinking more in terms of managing the relationship between the volunteer community & "HQ".

[Dunsignalling]

The WSR "situation" had been festering away for a number of years before matters came to a head sufficiently to attract the attention of higher authority.

 

Some years ago, I followed, with a mixture of interest, horror,  and increasing despair, the progress of another major heritage line considerably impeded by similar (if not worse) in-fighting. Every pound spent on legal fees is a pound lost to engineering, building restoration or whatever on the railway.

 

I had been a longish-standing member of the WSRA (number six hundred and something IIRC) and had no desire to witness a similar scenario unfold on my "local" line.

 

I was in no position to make myself "part of the solution" but had no wish to risk becoming "part of the problem" so I chickened out and allowed my membership to lapse. I keep an eye on developments via friends with stronger stomachs, but it seems there are still odd elements attempting to keep the pot boiling, so I haven't yet seen fit to re-join.

 

It would be a tragedy to lose both a major heritage line and an important contributor to the west country tourist economy, and I fervently hope the WSR will both survive and begin to thrive again.

 

John

 

 

[rodent279]

53 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 

I volunteer at a local (non-railway) heritage site, where I do feel valued as a volunteer yet don’t really feel that I have “ownership” of it. However, I’m happy with this dynamic as long as I don’t feel like I’m being taken advantage of as free labour (perceptions of which I think would depend on how commercial/charitable the organisation appears to be).

 

On the other hand, I previously volunteered for another (unrelated) organisation which was more volunteer-led, where I was quite involved in determining the direction of my part of it, and where it was annoying to be told what to do by paid staff who were trying to implement wider policies while not really understanding what the volunteers needed day to day. But I was much more willing to put extra time into this project to keep it going than with the one described above.

 

I don’t really understand the full situation at the West Somerset or have an opinion on it but I wonder whether the more general ‘problem’ with heritage railways is that they were often initially set up by volunteers, so are/were volunteer-led, but have now expanded to the point where paid staff and a more businesslike approach are needed to operate safely and sustainably.

And I guess there will always be an uneasy relationship between paid staff, whose jobs and livelihoods depend on the railway, and volunteers, who are doing it for "fun/kicks/interest/genuine passion"*, but who do not depend on it succeeding in the same way.

In the end, unless you have a financial interest, as a volunteer you can walk away with little or no real impact on yourself, other than perhaps a sense of loss.

As an employee, unless you have another job lined up, your can't do that.

 

(* Before anyone takes offence, or thinks that I'm dissing volunteers, I'm not implying that volunteers are necessarily any less diligent & "professional", just that they are coming at it from a different perspective)

[phil-b259]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

Managing taht sort of relationship can be very difficult but the volunteers need to understand that it has to be managed - and for many that can be difficult. 

 

Actually its not normally what is said (or the message which the organisation is trying to convey) which is the issue - its how they say it.

 

There needs to be a recognition that unlike paid staff, volunteers are only there because they want to be and while in a 'paid' environment employees will sometimes put up with a hostile attitude from management because of the wages they earn, the same doesn't hold true with volunteers.

 

Be open and honest with your volunteers and they will usually be helpful / compliant because they can see what you are trying to do is good for the organisation even if it doesn't turn out right. Be arrogant and secretive with a 'we always know best' attitude and volunteers / supporters will get pissed off and walk away....

[Northmoor]

@phil-b259: what you've just written is, pretty much, the definition of LEADERSHIP, which is not the same as MANAGEMENT.

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Northmoor said:

@phil-b259: what you've just written is, pretty much, the definition of LEADERSHIP, which is not the same as MANAGEMENT.

Or putting it another way - where volunteers are involved it is crucially important that the management provide leadership (and that can be very difficult if they are seen to be not even  managing properly).

[The Johnster]

This is where volunteers who are experienced in railway work, either on the volunteer-run railway or with skillsets from outside it, are particularly valuable.  It is the nature of things that such people tend to end up with permanent full time jobs and do not have the time to leave their responsibilites to act as de facto training instructors for new intake inexperienced volunteers.  It is therefore desirable to maintain a throughput of increasingly experienced volunteers, but because volunteering is by nature difficult to predict, volunteers leaving for various reasons and sometimes at short notice, this is always going to be a major problem from the point of view of the railway's management. 

 

There is a limit to the amount of completely unskilled work that untrained volunteers can be put to, and some of it will not be to their liking with the result that they will move on.

[rab]

On 19/08/2021 at 18:31, Northmoor said:

@phil-b259: what you've just written is, pretty much, the definition of LEADERSHIP, which is not the same as MANAGEMENT.

I agree but I would have thought that leadership

is a desirable part of GOOD management

[Northmoor]

39 minutes ago, rab said:

I agree but I would have thought that leadership

is a desirable part of GOOD management

Not every manager needs to be a leader, which is fortunate because really good leaders are rare - you'll know when you've worked for one.

[brianusa]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There is a limit to the amount of completely unskilled work that untrained volunteers can be put to, and some of it will not be to their liking with the result that they will move on.

How true!  I was once a volunteer on a local short line in California which ran passenger excursions to a town about a hundred miles away.  It wasn't one of those  that ran to the Grand Canyon or the Napa Valley; all it was, was a couple of diesels and  a half dozen carriages, with dodgy  A/C.  It never ran fast enough to cool as it was driven from the axles so consequently got hot in the California sun.  Not all the time but there were days......................

    The point though is that a lot of 'vols' wanted to drive the engines or such similar exotic jobs but those jobs went to professionals from the railroad.  We wanted cleaners, waiters and porters etc.  I ended up as a sort of tour guide, which was interesting enough,  at least you got a free train ride and you met a lot of people that way!

    Brian.

[Northmoor]

2 minutes ago, brianusa said:

How true!  I was once a volunteer on a local short line in California which ran passenger excursions to a town about a hundred miles away.  It wasn't one of those  that ran to the Grand Canyon or the Napa Valley; all it was, was a couple of diesels and  a half dozen carriages, with dodgy  A/C.  It never ran fast enough to cool as it was driven from the axles so consequently got hot in the California sun.  Not all the time but there were days......................

    The point though is that a lot of 'vols' wanted to drive the engines or such similar exotic jobs but those jobs went to professionals from the railroad.  We wanted cleaners, waiters and porters etc.  I ended up as a sort of tour guide, which was interesting enough,  at least you got a free train ride and you met a lot of people that way!

    Brian.

The (non)availability of the skills required to operate a heritage/tourist railway is probably a bigger problem than the usually discussed need to bring in new blood.   The number of people with heavy engineering experience (let alone any of coal fired boilers) is very small; it is why the cost of large locomotive overhauls is now typically a high six figures, as there are no longer the skilled volunteers available.  Overall, there is an ageing population in the UK, so the number of retired with time available should be growing. 

 

However, one of the mantras of people management is that Availability is Not a Skill, you still need the right skills for each job, even the apparently "easy" task of manning the shop.  I still kick myself for not intervening at a railway I was visiting, when I overheard two families trying to book Santa Special tickets in the station shop.  The elderly volunteer kept politely apologising that he didn't have the right form, but asked if they could come back another day.  He didn't have the initiative to just ask for their names and phone numbers.  In the space of five minutes the railway probably lost nearly £100 of business.  This event still sticks in the mind because in my experience it is so unusual.

[RJS1977]

1 hour ago, brianusa said:

How true!  I was once a volunteer on a local short line in California which ran passenger excursions to a town about a hundred miles away. 

 

And that's a short line? That's longer than the Severn Valley, West Somerset, Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland and several others put together!

[PenrithBeacon]

58 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

 

And that's a short line? That's longer than the Severn Valley, West Somerset, Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland and several others put together!

And all of them are too long!

[F-UnitMad]

10 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

And that's a short line? That's longer than the Severn Valley, West Somerset, Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland and several others put together!

"Short Line" is a legal term in the USA based on a Railroad's annual revenue. It is not a description of how long the railroad is.

Many Short Lines have total trackage miles greater than some of the TOCs in the UK. The difference being that US Railroads are mainly freight oriented, whereas even a 'small' TOC in the UK might be running an intensive commuter service every day.

[Oldddudders]

9 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

And all of them are too long!

Could you expand upon that?

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

And all of them are too long!

The Severn Valley is just right for me, and I can happily spend a big chunk of a week hopping on and off trains at intermediate stations and exploring/photographing. It does have the advantage of attractive towns at either end, with the exquisite Bewdley en route, and the bonus (if one were needed) of the excellent Engine Shed at Highley. It's a total holiday package, not just a train ride, but the line and loadings are sufficiently demanding to make that very entertaining, too.

 

The West Somerset suffers from having all its non-enthusiast "destinations" toward one end and also from a lack of land to develop intermediate attractions on the railway. If more of that were obtainable, Williton (for example) has the potential to be developed into something akin to Highley.

 

Also, whilst the (already busy) A358 as far as Bishops Lydeard is fairly good nowadays, north of there it gets somewhat bucolic in places and adding the hundred-odd cars commonly parked there to the usual throng seeking spaces in Minehead/Dunster/Watchet etc. would not be helpful.

 

I can't comment on the Welsh Highland, as that's still on my "to do" list.

 

John

Edited August 21, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Siberian Snooper]

I've not done the WSR since it went beyond Washford, but I have done the Welsh Highland and I found most of the trip to be enjoyable, particularly Pont Croesor to Dinas.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Northmoor said:

The (non)availability of the skills required to operate a heritage/tourist railway is probably a bigger problem than the usually discussed need to bring in new blood.   The number of people with heavy engineering experience (let alone any of coal fired boilers) is very small; it is why the cost of large locomotive overhauls is now typically a high six figures, as there are no longer the skilled volunteers available.  Overall, there is an ageing population in the UK, so the number of retired with time available should be growing. 

 

However, one of the mantras of people management is that Availability is Not a Skill, you still need the right skills for each job, even the apparently "easy" task of manning the shop.  I still kick myself for not intervening at a railway I was visiting, when I overheard two families trying to book Santa Special tickets in the station shop.  The elderly volunteer kept politely apologising that he didn't have the right form, but asked if they could come back another day.  He didn't have the initiative to just ask for their names and phone numbers.  In the space of five minutes the railway probably lost nearly £100 of business.  This event still sticks in the mind because in my experience it is so unusual.

Another big problem is 'transferable skills' where people who are in various jobs on the 'big railway' come in and behave as if they know everything which can rapidly upset those who wish to learn from scratch.  Years ago I was involved ina voluntary capacity with a heritage site (which also had involvement in main line operations) and we had major problems with a certain group heavily 'defending' their 'professionalism' while doing little to offer the benefit of their knowledge and experience to volunteers quite a number of whom were very willing and keen youngsters.

 

Things there got massively better, complete with real progressional training, after we got shot of those who thought themselves above everybody else.  if you do volunteer and have a railway background you need to really appreciate that you are not god and that your idea of 'transferring your skills' might not be how others see it.  Plus I have found that some people coming in from the big railway aren't at all happy to undergo training relating to the place they are volunteering at or to be examined in their knowledge because they are sure that 'they know it all' (and sometimes it is unfortunately apparent that they don't.

 

Many full time railway staff have an awful lot to offer when volunteering and many - probably the majority in my experience - do exactly that and help to train the c volunteers but some regrettably don't and are more trouble than they're worth

[rodent279]

Interesting you say that, and I'm glad you did, because I was afraid to. I was suspecting that some of the "problem" volunteers may be those with a professional railway background, not just those armchair enthusiasts who think they know it all because they've read a book.

Leadership, training and education are delicate arts, and criticism, when it is offered, has to be done in the right way. The manner in which criticism is delivered is all the difference between the message being taken on board, and someone taking offence and walking off.