West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[woodenhead]

Well on a happier note, Snowcombe Heathfield seems to be doing brisk Santa business today.

[royaloak]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I dropped by at Bishops Lydeard last weekend when on business in the area. I could not work out where visitors who arrive by car would park. So, apparently, not a great place for many to join the train.

It is very well signposted from the M5 (both North and South bound) all the way to the car park, all you have to do is follow the brown signs, I mean even I managed it so it must be easy!

[Joseph_Pestell]

44 minutes ago, royaloak said:

It is very well signposted from the M5 (both North and South bound) all the way to the car park, all you have to do is follow the brown signs, I mean even I managed it so it must be easy!

Just been on Google Earth to have a look. See where I missed the turning last weekend. But it's still a rather small car park, probably not enough capacity for even one trainload of passengers.

[royaloak]

11 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Just been on Google Earth to have a look. See where I missed the turning last weekend. But it's still a rather small car park, probably not enough capacity for even one trainload of passengers.

There is a'field' behind the car part they use as an overflow car park, I have never had an issue parking even when turning up late on a Gala day.

[Coppercap]

36 minutes ago, royaloak said:

There is a'field' behind the car part they use as an overflow car park, I have never had an issue parking even when turning up late on a Gala day.

+1   I went to this year's Autumn Gala (on the Sunday), got to BL about 9:30, still loads of room in the main car park (about half full), and the gate for overflow wasn't even open, and no signs out for it yet. The overflow was obviously in use later on though.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Coppercap

[brianusa]

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Near to the M5 in distance, yes. But in time, no. Taunton is one of the most congested places I know due to unending roadworks.

 

May be better if they manage to build the proposed new interchange with the A358 further west and link that to the western ring road.

 

Meantime, I prefer to come off and take the A39 from Bridgwater to Williton. Also slow but a much nicer drive than being stuck in a Taunton traffic jam.

 

Sorry, I have little idea of Taunton's  traffic problems, don't get there very often!  All I know is what I read herein and other rail sources so I'm always interested in what's going on.  Hope the current situation is soon resolved.

    Brian.

[Rivercider]

On 29/11/2019 at 22:34, The Johnster said:

If nails are being hit on heads, this is the biggest one being hit by the biggest hammer.  Bishop's Lydeard is not a suitable terminus station and was of course never designed as one; it is in the middle of nowhere, there is nothing to see or do except watch the loco run around the train, nothing in the immediate vicinity of any note, and most folk are probably happy to get back on the train and head for Watchet or Minehead.  Clearly, the WSR cannot achieve it's proper potential until there is a direct service to Taunton, and there are all sorts of historical and local political reasons why that hasn't happened and is possibly never going to.

May be I am easily pleased but we did make the train journey from Minehead to BL for the day a few years ago (my usual journeys are BL to Minehead & rtn). As well as the shop, cafe, and gauge museum at the station it is only a 10 minute walk into the village. There are two pubs, that both serve food, a tea room, and the Bishops Lydeard Mill Museum, which also has a tea room. In the station approach there is also the Quantock Brewery which has a shop and bar.

 

cheers (hic)

 

 

 

[Blandford1969]

On 29/11/2019 at 23:32, Dava said:

 

 

 

Blandford 1969/Mr JJP has achieved a huge amount towards turning round the WSR. He must have wondered what he took on at times but  the line is much better placed to thrive now than in past years. Maybe he will run 7027 on it one day. Good luck!

 

Dava

I have nothing to do with the WSR, but wanted to share the post as it seemed to me to be fair for their view to be put out. It is a strong reminder to all that whether we like it or not running railways with increasing legislation and crossover makes it ever more costly and challenging. Standing still or taking your eyes off the ball even for a short time is no option

[Dava]

Indeed, the ORR are rightly putting heritage railway safety and operation under scrutiny. Volunteer operation and 'old' technology such as Mark 1 coaches without central locking make their requirements demanding to meet.

 

That's before the Greta Thunberg generation demand we stop burning carbon, or at the least question why we do. Which is why heritage railways are as much in the education business as heritage and leisure/entertainment. Some understand this and do it well, others have yet to catch on. 

 

The WSR has unique attractions and by it's nature / geography challenges as well. Hopefully it can now exploit the former and overcome or cope with the latter.

 

Dava

[ikcdab]

On 29/11/2019 at 22:34, The Johnster said:

If nails are being hit on heads, this is the biggest one being hit by the biggest hammer.  Bishop's Lydeard is not a suitable terminus station and was of course never designed as one; it is in the middle of nowhere, there is nothing to see or do except watch the loco run around the train, nothing in the immediate vicinity of any note, and most folk are probably happy to get back on the train and head for Watchet or Minehead.  Clearly, the WSR cannot achieve it's proper potential until there is a direct service to Taunton, and there are all sorts of historical and local political reasons why that hasn't happened and is possibly never going to.

Sorry you have missed the nail completely.  Many (most?) Heritage railways run to nowhere. Its a fact of life and most cope with that.  Where the WSR is better than most is that we run to watchet and minehead both of which are interesting places with bags to do.  Most of our visitors start at lydeard, as is the station nearest the motorways and travel to the minehead. For those that come to lydeard, there is stuff to do in the village,  but for 2020 we are developing the gauge museum with a £40k lottery grant which will make a very positive destination. 

As for running to Taunton. No. For many reasons the WSR is never going to extend its services there. I won't repeat all of those now.  This season gwr ran a successful connecting shuttle from Taunton to lydeard and we hope to extend that next year.  It has been a difficult few years, but we are now on the upswing. Come and see!

[rogerzilla]

The two heritage railways that spring to mind and operate between meaningfully-large towns are the SVR and the NYMR (the latter by arrangement with Network Rail).  They're rarely used as genuine transport, though.  I think the SVR does some sort of "commuter" service but, of course, it's not year-round.

 

The advantage of going from nowhere to nowhere is that you can usually have a large car park.  The disadvantage is that people need to make a special trip by some other means of transport to catch the train, and won't necessarily combine it with a stay in a nearby town, especially if they don't have a car. 

 

The Bluebell used to be the best example of a nowhere to nowhere railway but the East Grinstead extension has helped.  It still wins the "most impressive station in the middle of nowhere" award for Horsted Keynes.  Apparently it was built big in anticipation of development that never came - unusual for the South East!

Edited December 3, 2019 by rogerzilla

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Dava said:

Indeed, the ORR are rightly putting heritage railway safety and operation under scrutiny. Volunteer operation and 'old' technology such as Mark 1 coaches without central locking make their requirements demanding to meet.

 

That's before the Greta Thunberg generation demand we stop burning carbon, or at the least question why we do. Which is why heritage railways are as much in the education business as heritage and leisure/entertainment. Some understand this and do it well, others have yet to catch on. 

 

The WSR has unique attractions and by it's nature / geography challenges as well. Hopefully it can now exploit the former and overcome or cope with the latter.

 

Dava

Although in many respects the legislative requirements have not changed apart from the more generally applicable changes to H&S legislation.  And in fact there is a useful change in ROGS with the ability to use competent and qualified people for certain tasks whereas previously you would have had to call in HMRI.  The biggest change has been the introduction of ROGS (Rails and Other Guided Systems) legislation but apart from formalising the need for an SMS (Safety Management System) and introducing the competent person etc approach for certain matters all it has done in respect of basic safety and procedures management is pick up everything any properly run heritage/leisure railway should already have been doing.

 

The problem - speaking from the direct experience of having to sort some out - is that a number of such railways (with some surprising examples) were not doing what they should have been doing and on inspections by HMRI have been duly picked up for their shortcomings and told to get their house in order usually being given a chance to do so before an Improvement Notice is served on them (that usually only happens if  somebody is dilatory in putting their paperwork and procedures right).   In simple terms 'it ain't rocket science' and apart from codifying stuff into the SMS the task should not be onerous.   Some of the wider H% &S stuff might be a bit more akward but really that boils down to keeping up with wider legislative change and applying any requirements as they emerge. 

 

Another problem - again in some respects self-inflicted - is the habit of heritage railways (in particular) wishing to cling to use of old BR Rules and Regulations which are not infrequently totally inadequate for a railway today, even if it is 100% using heritage equipment.  For example the old personal safety Rules are totally inadequate for today (particularly where volunteer labour is involved) as are some operational Rules - especially in respect of personal safety critical areas such as shunting.

[The Johnster]

Listen to Mike, chaps; he knows what he’s talking about. 

[Aire Head]

22 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

The two heritage railways that spring to mind and operate between meaningfully-large towns are the SVR and the NYMR (the latter by arrangement with Network Rail).  They're rarely used as genuine transport, though.  I think the SVR does some sort of "commuter" service but, of course, it's not year-round.

 

The advantage of going from nowhere to nowhere is that you can usually have a large car park.  The disadvantage is that people need to make a special trip by some other means of transport to catch the train, and won't necessarily combine it with a stay in a nearby town, especially if they don't have a car. 

 

The Bluebell used to be the best example of a nowhere to nowhere railway but the East Grinstead extension has helped.  It still wins the "most impressive station in the middle of nowhere" award for Horsted Keynes.  Apparently it was built big in anticipation of development that never came - unusual for the South East!

 

The Keighley & Worth Valley has been looked into for potentially providing commuter traffic as it serves several villages that can be hard to access by road and the line terminates at a shared Station with the National Network.

 

It even conveniently still is connected to the Network!

[caradoc]

On 03/12/2019 at 09:36, ikcdab said:

Sorry you have missed the nail completely.  Many (most?) Heritage railways run to nowhere. Its a fact of life and most cope with that.  Where the WSR is better than most is that we run to watchet and minehead both of which are interesting places with bags to do.  Most of our visitors start at lydeard, as is the station nearest the motorways and travel to the minehead. For those that come to lydeard, there is stuff to do in the village,  but for 2020 we are developing the gauge museum with a £40k lottery grant which will make a very positive destination. 

As for running to Taunton. No. For many reasons the WSR is never going to extend its services there. I won't repeat all of those now.  This season gwr ran a successful connecting shuttle from Taunton to lydeard and we hope to extend that next year.  It has been a difficult few years, but we are now on the upswing. Come and see!

 

I look forward to the connecting service from Taunton and that will certainly encourage me to visit the WSR.

 

However I do wonder how sustainable a preserved railway is going to be in future, as concern about climate change grows, if the only reasonable access is by car ? For that reason there are preserved railways I have never visited, eg the Churnet Valley and Shackerstone, and my first visit to Tenterden was only this year; By bus from Headcorn, which was OK, but on the way back the (hourly) bus missed a connecting train to London by 30 seconds ! The preserved railways I have visited most often are those accessible by rail, eg the SVR, GCR, NYMR, NNR, all of which seem to be successful concerns too.

 

[brianusa]

Just watched today's Down Christmas Carol train arrive at Crowcombe.  A few passengers got off and joined a few waiting on the platform in the rain.  The Up train from Minehead didn't seem as busy at Blue Anchor.

       Brian.

[fezza]

On 03/12/2019 at 09:36, ikcdab said:

Sorry you have missed the nail completely.  Many (most?) Heritage railways run to nowhere. Its a fact of life and most cope with that.  Where the WSR is better than most is that we run to watchet and minehead both of which are interesting places with bags to do.  Most of our visitors start at lydeard, as is the station nearest the motorways and travel to the minehead. For those that come to lydeard, there is stuff to do in the village,  but for 2020 we are developing the gauge museum with a £40k lottery grant which will make a very positive destination. 

As for running to Taunton. No. For many reasons the WSR is never going to extend its services there. I won't repeat all of those now.  This season gwr ran a successful connecting shuttle from Taunton to lydeard and we hope to extend that next year.  It has been a difficult few years, but we are now on the upswing. Come and see!

 

The WSR was originally set up to restore a rail connection to Taunton and provide a commuter rail service.  The fact it has never seriously attempted to do this or progress beyond a position it reached in the mid-1980s is a big reason why it has lost momentum as an operation.  Heritage railways need to have a vision and give  volunteers a sense they  are contributing to a great project - look at the 'impossible' schemes of the Welsh Highland Railway, the North York Moors or the Great Central.  They have all come off or are well on the road the fruition - and they work as heritage and commercial operations.

 

The WSR in contrast has stagnated and failed to mobilise political will behind the Taunton link, despite the local roads being more jammed than ever.  My only hope is the latest crisis is a major wakeup call.  Let's face it a gauge museum (while interesting to people like me) means nothing to 90% of 'normals' who visit the line, let alone the local community who might use it if it returned to being a 'proper' railway.

Edited December 17, 2019 by fezza

[The Johnster]

To be fair to the 'stagnant' WSR, they have had major resistance to all of their original aims.  I always their best way forward was as a sort of two level operation, a purely commercial train service to, ideally, Taunton or at least a station at Norton Fitzwarren for a main line connection, which would have been originally operated by the dmus but by now perhaps with 152s and running through to Bristol, and a volunteer supported heritage operation with steam or heritage diesel for the enthusiasts, Butlin's, and the tourists.  The failure to access Taunton has put the mockers on the first ambition and severely hobbled the second, but one cannot blame the railway entirely for this.

 

The 'geopolitical' setup is also I believe flawed.  The commercial and volunteer aspects of the railway need to be much more clearly defined or the result is that people who are giving their skills and labour for nothing may feel, rightly or not, that they are denied a voice in the running of things and exploited for profit, regarded as cash cows paying for the 'privilege' of playing trains, and considered as second class citizens by the 'professionals' on the payroll, when some of the volunteers may well be far more skilled and experienced in railway operation, engineering, and management than the paid staff.

 

My own experience of volunteering has been largely on the Festiniog (one f in my day) and Severn Valley, both places where time and trouble was taken by staff and more established volunteers to ensure that my feeble efforts were duly thanked for and appreciated.  I would have voted with my feet otherwise.

[woodenhead]

I am currently reading a rather interesting tome about the history of the WSR and the WSMR, this route has never had it easy.

[royaloak]

5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 The failure to access Taunton has put the mockers on the first ambition and severely hobbled the second, but one cannot blame the railway entirely for this.

I understand they were actually offered the route into Taunton back in the 80s when the resignalling was being planned and turned it down hence the route now being blocked to any reinstatement.

 

With hindsight that was a mistake but obviously things were rather different then to what they are now.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 minute ago, royaloak said:

I understand they were actually offered the route into Taunton back in the 80s when the resignalling was being planned and turned it down hence the route now being blocked to any reinstatement.

 

What's to stop that being unblocked?

[royaloak]

1 minute ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

What's to stop that being unblocked?

Moving all the relay boxes and wiring would be mega expensive, not difficult, just expensive.

[TheSignalEngineer]

A problem with the original aim of getting to Taunton was the NUR. This was not because of the main line railway but the replacement bus service after closure. The drivers were NUR members and would have been made redundant if the trains had come back.

[caradoc]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

A problem with the original aim of getting to Taunton was the NUR. This was not because of the main line railway but the replacement bus service after closure. The drivers were NUR members and would have been made redundant if the trains had come back.

 

That was certainly the objection of the NUR, but would surely only have become reality if the WSR had been able to offer a passenger service between Taunton and Minehead which (at least) equalled the competing bus service, in terms of frequency, hours of operation, and days run ? Not a single preserved railway has, so far, managed to provide a service comparable to the norm on the national network.

 

[Ian J.]

Also, don't forget that any commercial service provided by a Heritage outfit is likely to be more expensive than any bus service per journey. I'm not sure what subsidy (if any) any such outfit would get for providing a commercial service.