West Somerset Railway's future in doubt after £800k loss

[Gilbert]

22 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Ah..

Just noticed, no trains to Minehead in 2021 ?

That just changed my plans.

There appears to be  bus link from Dunster in the summer timetable

https://www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk/timetables/view/163

[fezza]

It seems odd that what is a relatively trivial problem (in engineering terms) is going to cost them most of the summer season. There is traffic from BL but almost all the heavy holiday traffic comes from Minehead. 

[ikcdab]

1 minute ago, fezza said:

It seems odd that what is a relatively trivial problem (in engineering terms) is going to cost them most of the summer season. There is traffic from BL but almost all the heavy holiday traffic comes from Minehead. 

Not sure I would describe it as trivial. The old crossing has to be completely removed and four new pedestals and full length barriers installed. Then all the control gear has to be replaced. Not too mention the paperwork today goes with it....

[fezza]

I'm just puzzled that they've known about this for a long time and were expecting to open in March - so what happened? The lack of updates is a worry. Could temporary remedial measures not be put in place for a 5mph crossing?

 

Okay, replacing it is not a one man job, but it is something a professional team could do (and usually does) over a weekend possession. 

[Mulgabill]

Previous statements referred to the requirements for statutary consultation,

with regard to the involvement of both the county council, and DRR. That accounted

for the staged timetable, initially issued. No statement has yet been issued with

regard to the revised version, last week. Indeed if you visit their  website there is

no mention of any update having occurred.

 

I will try to post an update when I get to see the next newsletter, in which they

have promised more details. (However I may not be where the hard copy is

delivered, so somebody else <DonW?> may wish to step in).

 

TONY

[ikcdab]

A full explanation is given by Frank C here:

https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/west-somerset-railway-general-discussion.508987/page-1878

 

Ian

[fezza]

Yes to sum up, it seems they took the old crossing out but underestimated the legal issues around the LCO. And Covid clearly didn't help. 

 

As someone who has spent a lot of time abroad, you also have to be amazed about the bureaucracy around a 5mph crossing on a light railway in the UK...

[woodenhead]

Hmmm, that thread looks like the war between the old and new regimes is still not over on the WSR.

 

I'll wait for an official response from the WSR as to the cause of the latest delay and then make my mind up.

[Oldddudders]

In 1967, as a very junior supernumerary clerk in Rules & Signalling I found myself doing hand-drawings for a Joint Enquiry. A motorist had been killed when she drove onto Yapton Crossing at the same time as a train. The crossing was undergoing conversion from gates to AHB, and protection was provided by ropes and pennants. Evidently the bods on site weren't able to make these sufficiently obvious. 

 

As another thread on RMweb reveals, the public is not very savvy where crossings are concerned. Better lost revenue than another tragedy on a preserved line that is already having to struggle.  

[The Stationmaster]

24 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Hmmm, that thread looks like the war between the old and new regimes is still not over on the WSR.

 

I'll wait for an official response from the WSR as to the cause of the latest delay and then make my mind up.

Plus a strong leavening of ignorance or incompetence.  What type of rail operator removes an old level crossing - covered by a Level Crossing order - before finalising the design of the new one?  I can understand the need for various consultations - that is blindingly obvious but not to do that, plus the present situation, suggests that the sort of incompetence (or was it ignorance where there should have been none?) which led to HMRi imposing an Improvement Order in respect of some very basic other matters on the railway has had a much wider impact on the mangement of the line.  

 

A great shame in view of the very attractive nature of this railway and the massive ready made seasonal market which exists at Minehead (which I understand has seen booming business for local retailers since the end of lockdown).

 

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Plus a strong leavening of ignorance or incompetence.  What type of rail operator removes an old level crossing - covered by a Level Crossing order - before finalising the design of the new one?  I can understand the need for various consultations - that is blindingly obvious but not to do that, plus the present situation, suggests that the sort of incompetence (or was it ignorance where there should have been none?) which led to HMRi imposing an Improvement Order in respect of some very basic other matters on the railway has had a much wider impact on the mangement of the line.  

 

A great shame in view of the very attractive nature of this railway and the massive ready made seasonal market which exists at Minehead (which I understand has seen booming business for local retailers since the end of lockdown).

 

I guess it depends what the issue is, at some point the crossing had to be removed, if the work has started in good faith with a clear plan then it would be fine that the LCO had been lost because a new one was about to be set in place.  When they did it, the line was closed and they were prepared to wait until June for a full re-opening, so something has stalled the work, exactly what is the question and a lack of an update allows in all sorts of thoughts and ideas.

 

Clearly there are factions at play on the WSR and it really doesn't help the line because it seems to create secrecy and conjecture about how the line is being run.

 

'Shudda built a bridge'

[caradoc]

It does seem from the link provided by ikcdab that the existing LC had become too unreliable to remain in use (which does beg the question how that was allowed to occur). 

 

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, caradoc said:

It does seem from the link provided by ikcdab that the existing LC had become too unreliable to remain in use (which does beg the question how that was allowed to occur). 

 

It had an estimated 25 year life span, that was up in 2015, a plan was to replace it in 2018, but the parlous state of the finances and the new board didn't see the work undertaken and with Covid and everything else it's still not done.

 

I dont know if the desire to make it fit in with the heritage surroundings is a red herring or an actual issue.

[fezza]

There was a recent report on changing WSR governance and converting part of the operation to a charity. However it seems certain interests circled the wagons to prevent it. 

 

The WSR should be one of the greatest preserved railways in the world - but it also seems to be just about the worst managed, which is in itself quite an achievement I suppose... 

[The Stationmaster]

28 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I guess it depends what the issue is, at some point the crossing had to be removed, if the work has started in good faith with a clear plan then it would be fine that the LCO had been lost because a new one was about to be set in place.  When they did it, the line was closed and they were prepared to wait until June for a full re-opening, so something has stalled the work, exactly what is the question and a lack of an update allows in all sorts of thoughts and ideas.

 

Clearly there are factions at play on the WSR and it really doesn't help the line because it seems to create secrecy and conjecture about how the line is being run.

 

'Shudda built a bridge'

Which again betrays their iginorance.  You need the LCO before you start work - having first carried out the necessary consultations etc.  The new order comes into effect when teh work has been completed so you don't first dismantle the previous arrangements then start the consultations and application for the LCO.  the procedure is explained in very simple terms online and if they had any doubt there is a well known level crossing consultant who is readily (and probably not too expensively?) available to avoid a lot of heartache and time wasting in this process.

 

Alas this is typical of the WSR's current mess - and this is a railway which who called in a local builder to relay some of its track on the fairly recent past.  Maybe that shows all too cl;early the state its internal relationships are in especially with its various volunteers.

 

7 minutes ago, caradoc said:

It does seem from the link provided by ikcdab that the existing LC had become too unreliable to remain in use (which does beg the question how that was allowed to occur). 

 

I'm not in the least surprised in view of some of the very basics things they were picked up on by the Inspectorate - absolutely core safety items and record keeping apparently totally ignored.

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, fezza said:

There was a recent report on changing WSR governance and converting part of the operation to a charity. However it seems certain interests circled the wagons to prevent it. 

 

The WSR should be one of the greatest preserved railways in the world - but it also seems to be just about the worst managed, which is in itself quite an achievement I suppose... 

Having read the history of the line from inception, this is nothing new, it's seems it's life both before and since preservation mirror themselves.

[Bucoops]

We are booked to go to Butlins (ugh!) later in the year with the plan to ride the WSR. Might look to move it to next year (it was already moved from last year...).

[Mike Storey]

I remember much the same disagreements and criticism going on at the NYMR around 30 years ago, when, indeed, quite a few volunteers left "in disgust".  It did not quite get to a crisis, but it was a warning shot across the bows. The Trust and the Volunteer group managed to sort out a better working relationship and installed some very capable management/supervisors. I wonder what is stopping the WSR from doing the same? Is it just personalities or is there a deeper problem?

[fezza]

I dropped into Minehead today. You would have thought there would be a team trying to sell the Watchet excursions or some platform activities aimed at families... but no - just a big sign saying no public trains today. You had to look very hard to find any information on excursions and I couldn't find anything about why there were no trains running from Minehead on the busiest day of the year. It is a PR disaster. Those bank holiday families must be very bemused - will they bother to come back? 

 

I have no idea who is now running this shambles or which faction is currently in charge, but a new and competent management team are clearly needed. 

[The Johnster]

My impression (and it's just that; I haven't been over there for years) is that the current situation is poisonous.  There are accusations of incompetence which seem to have some basis in fact, major rifts within the management, between the managment and the volunteer supporters, and the management and the staff.  If I had money to invest in a heritage railway (which would infer that I was not looking for a profit but don't want to throw it away either). I'd be avoiding letting any of it anywhere near the WSR until the entire team is replaced, which is what I think it will take to rescue the railway.  What I think will happen is that the current regime will collapse financially and a rescue package with new people set up.  Or the railway will go under altogether, locos and rolling stock dispersed, land disposed of, and any chance of a rail connection between Taunton and Minehead lost forever.

 

Our larger heritage railways all have been operating for 40 or 50 years now, some longer, and have all weathered all sorts of problems.  Some have managed to expand, and they have developed a body of expertise in operating and managing tourist/enthusiast railways of roughly a size and general type, so we tend to think that they are indestructible and with us forever.  Well, they're not, and they are fundamentally commercial operations subject to the same commercial issues and perils as any other business, and I would not like to put a number on the number of businesses that have gone under in the last 4 decades or so.  Neither success nor survival is guaranteed, and as well as competence being called into question, complacency may also be an issue in some places.

[Railpassion]

I haven't been keeping track of the WSR situation for a while and I read the latest news from the WSR with astonishment. That Minehead, the principal destination, will lose the entire summer due to the level crossing issue demonstrates how badly run the WSR really is. To have this happen after all the ill-feeling over the S&DR business and the earlier feuds must be heartbreaking for so many volunteers and staff.

The particular signal arrangements had served the railway well and for the management to indulge themselves on a whim about semaphore signals and historical authenticity after the detailed design had already been drawn up demonstrates that they are not fit to continue in their roles. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

15 hours ago, Gilbert said:

There appears to be  bus link from Dunster in the summer timetable

https://www.west-somerset-railway.co.uk/timetables/view/163

Thanks, but I find myself reading another WSR travesty.

 

my little one wanted to do the “mallory towers” seaside vacation trip.

the RTC railtour still advertised as Paddington to Minehead, would have been it.

 

https://www.railwaytouring.net/the-west-somerset-steam-express29484f4a

 

But to do 7/8 th of a trip, and then pony on over to a modern bus to reach the end wont be cutting it to give a historic feel to a train trip with grandma, so its just saved me a £500 day out in 1st class for 4.

 

I dunno, WSR, it just feels like a line fighting a battle of attrition, and it seems both sides are fine with it. Who knows why those agendas are what they are, but I hope there is a chance to ride the full length of the line once again before too much damage is done and lost.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

8 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

I remember much the same disagreements and criticism going on at the NYMR around 30 years ago, when, indeed, quite a few volunteers left "in disgust".  It did not quite get to a crisis, but it was a warning shot across the bows. The Trust and the Volunteer group managed to sort out a better working relationship and installed some very capable management/supervisors. I wonder what is stopping the WSR from doing the same? Is it just personalities or is there a deeper problem?

There have been ongoing 'issues' between the Trust/management and the association (siupporters/c volunteers) going back for a very long time.  Some of it is - so I've been told - down to personalities but part of it stems from the management trying to do lots of things without listening to or using teh advice of experienced volunteers and some outsiders.   What seems to amount toa refusal to listen or take notice of what they were being told has led to what I suppose has amounted to an accumulation of various things.  I have heard - although I don't know if it is correct but it would fit the atmosphere that has been claimed to exist - that the Inspectorate were 'tipped off' by somebody from the association side of things because they were fed up with the management not being prepared to listen or act on advice they were given.

 

Somebody I now who used to do a massive amount for the railway told me duringa ;'phone conversation a couple of weeks back that the present management are 'an absolute shower'.  As that person has not been involved in any active volunteering for some years and is not amemeber of the association I don't think it was said because they had a personal axe to grind.

[adb968008]

I just looked at other options on riding this line, and gosh they really aren't making it easy to travel..

 

if your in Minehead, you have 1 train a day.. it starts as a 40 minute bus ride, followed by a 25 minute train ride.. you then have 3 hours to wait for your reverse 25 minute train ride... for that “day out” its £80 for a table for 4.

is this a DMU shuttle or steam hauled ?

 

Quote

Excursion 3 - Depart Minehead at 11:50 (bus transfer) arriving in Dunster for the departure by train at 12.30 to Watchet, your return service from Watchet will be depart at 15:28 and will arrive back in Minehead at 16:16

 

How popular is that expected to be ?

 

 

flip side, they do have some nice bargains in their model shop... class 87 £100, class 24/1 £100, Hall £120...

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by adb968008

[Gilbert]

6 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Thanks, but I find myself reading another WSR travesty.

 

my little one wanted to do the “mallory towers” seaside vacation trip.

the RTC railtour still advertised as Paddington to Minehead, would have been it.

 

https://www.railwaytouring.net/the-west-somerset-steam-express29484f4a

 

But to do 7/8 th of a trip, and then pony on over to a modern bus to reach the end wont be cutting it to give a historic feel to a train trip with grandma, so its just saved me a £500 day out in 1st class for 4.

 

I dunno, WSR, it just feels like a line fighting a battle of attrition, and it seems both sides are fine with it. Who knows why those agendas are what they are, but I hope there is a chance to ride the full length of the line once again before too much damage is done and lost.

 

 

I assume a steam tour will be in difficulty if the loco can't get to the turn table at Minehead..although this tour seems to offer WSR haulage from BL and the tour loco will be turned at Norton Fitzwarren...anyway....(spot the man who knows nothing about running a real railway)...whatever happened to a man with a red flag...