Brush Type 1&2

[keefer]

5518 at Stratford 4/1/1971. GFYE with white roof, BR arrows and numerals, grille in centre door

http://www.railphotoarchive.org/PhotoViewerV5.php?img=0934000560000

 

EDIT: found more pics on Brushveteran's Flickr 

Sept. 1968: (no door grille?, grey roof): https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6246315262/in/album-72157627773064944/

April 1970 (grey roof?): https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6260137977/in/album-72157627773064944/

July 1970 (white roof): https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6260139165/in/album-72157627773064944/

 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by keefer
Add image links

[The Johnster]

4 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

The Class 14 nickname of Teddy Bears is a reference to the ignominy felt by Swindon at having to build such an inconsequential piece of tin after The Great Bear (although that was a bit of a dog too, really just an excuse for Churchward to build a mahoosive boiler).

Allegedly an erecting shop foreman; 'we built The Great Bear, now they want us to build a teddy bear'.  At Canton they were the 'wonder locos'; you wondered if it was going to start, and if it did you wondered if you could stop a train with it.

[SRman]

9 hours ago, russ p said:

 

I've seen that picture in the past but didn't realise the grilles were missing,  was that the only headcode fitted one not to have them?

 

 

From the rather limited amount of research I have done (mostly for renumbering a Lima 31/0 with the grille that I was detailing at the time), I think only the pilot batch lacked that grille, but all received them sometime during the late 1960s or very early 1970s. I am guessing here, but I think you would be right in saying that. 5518 did receive the grilles as they are present in later photos of that locomotive.

[russ p]

I've got a Hornby toffee apple I want to put yellow panels on and I've seen a picture of one without the grilles in 67

[MidlandRed]

9 hours ago, keefer said:

5518 at Stratford 4/1/1971. GFYE with white roof, BR arrows and numerals, grille in centre door

http://www.railphotoarchive.org/PhotoViewerV5.php?img=0934000560000

 

EDIT: found more pics on Brushveteran's Flickr 

Sept. 1968: (no door grille?, grey roof): https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6246315262/in/album-72157627773064944/

April 1970 (grey roof?): https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6260137977/in/album-72157627773064944/

July 1970 (white roof): https://www.flickr.com/photos/59835095@N02/6260139165/in/album-72157627773064944/

 

 

 

Just a thought - is it possible we're seeing different sides of the loco? I don't even see a door in the 1968 shot. 

 

D5518 was repaired (with replacement cabs) in 1967, converted to blue star and re-engined with the EE 1470 hp unit. This livery treatment was applied to quite a number of the class in this era - not sure if it occurred generally during re-engining or not. 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by MidlandRed

[MidlandRed]

On 25 November 2019 at 13:10, Clive Mortimore said:

All this waffle about Brush locos and no one has mentioned me or my mates, D1702-6, us less than loved class 48s.

one day the fat bald bloke will paint me and give me some buffers.

 

Haha!! Me and my mates seemed to encounter these locos in bits every time we visited Crewe Works in the late 60s...... we all classed them this way and never saw them in service until after conversion.

 

Although Sulzer and EE power units appear to have been largely successful, let's not forget that apart from D1702-6, Sulzer, Brush and BR had a major headache with the whole class in the mid 60s, requiring them to visit Vickers at Barrow for engine rectification (and derating). Maybe BR could put up with, for example 10 Baby Deltics being an issue, particularly with reducing fleet size demands - but 512 standard type 4s (D1734 and 1671 had probably already been broken up so 510) - must have been a huge headache? 

[SRman]

32 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

 

Just a thought - is it possible we're seeing different sides of the loco? I don't even see a door in the 1968 shot. 

 

D5518 was repaired (with replacement cabs) in 1967, converted to blue star and re-engined with the EE 1470 hp unit. This livery treatment was applied to quite a number of the class in this era - not sure if it occurred generally during re-engining or not. 

 

 

 

 

The engine room doors were on both sides, but not obvious at some angles. It is quite possible that one side had a grille while the other didn't at some point in time, but the photographic evidence suggests otherwise: they either had no grilles on both sides, or had grilles on both sides.

The Lima model I referred to before was actually of 31 004 as it appeared with grilles, so it had to be from 1974 onwards with TOPS numbering, but I wanted to backdate it to late 1960s condition, still in blue. As such, the same loco did not have the engine room door grilles at that time, so I had to pick a member from the production blue star batch with no headcode boxes (a 'skinhead'). I chose D5528 as being a close match in appearance to the body I had.

[keefer]

5 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

Haha!! Me and my mates seemed to encounter these locos in bits every time we visited Crewe Works in the late 60s...... we all classed them this way and never saw them in service until after conversion.

 

Although Sulzer and EE power units appear to have been largely successful, let's not forget that apart from D1702-6, Sulzer, Brush and BR had a major headache with the whole class in the mid 60s, requiring them to visit Vickers at Barrow for engine rectification (and derating). Maybe BR could put up with, for example 10 Baby Deltics being an issue, particularly with reducing fleet size demands - but 512 standard type 4s (D1734 and 1671 had probably already been broken up so 510) - must have been a huge headache? 

I didn't realise at first that the engines in the 31s were de-rated to 1470hp which probably helped reliability (according to Wiki, this is because that's what the electrical system can reliably handle). That said, the EE engines didn't seem to have suffered as other makes had hence the cl.50 was rated at 2700hp - Sulzer had a similar incremental increase in power available but hit trouble with the 47s.

I wonder if the EE engines are more 'robust' due to having comparatively more cylinders? 

i.e. the SVT engines on BR were 8-,12- and 16-cyl whereas the Sulzers were 6-,8- and 12-cyl for a roughly equivalent output?

(That said, i know the Paxman unit in the Type 1s had 16-cyl for only 800hp, when EE were getting 1000hp from 8-cyl !)

 

(I wish i still had my set of British Rail Fleet Survey - vol.1 covered the pilot scheme shenanigans)

[adb968008]

Around Manchester in the early 1990’s class 31’s became known as toilets due to their condition and knowing that any old  class 31/1 thru 31/5 could turn up anytime on a passenger turn.

 

so unreliable that BR sent them out from Manchester Victoria in pairs on 4 coach trains, and often got back different pair, or even 3 if both failed enroute..

 

Toilet stood for.. Thirty One Inside Loco Expect Trouble.. as it seemed to be the inside one that blew first, or just provided heating when a Springs Branch rescue freight loco brought it back.

 

 

[rogerzilla]

I remember most BR diesel locos being pretty unreliable, having been stranded many times as a passenger. The HSTs were a revelation (or revolution - take your pick) in reliability when they turned up, and not just because they could limp on with one power car.

 

EWS realised pretty quickly that their whole inherited fleet was desperately unreliable and commissioned hundreds of Class 66s.  These may be a bit industrial-looking and American (yuck) but they are dependable.

[Classsix T]

They should have made more than the five 47555 The Commonwealth Spirit they did, those suckers never failed, much to any scooper's chagrin. 

 

Whether there's any truth in that the banger blue paint job on the first 47555 wasn't dry in time for the inaugural Stockton-Darlington services is open to debate. I suspect the Pax demanded (and paid for) different traction having expressed their dismay at "that mouldy Spoon" having already scored her on the Catch Me Who Can tailchaser.

 

Or not, C6T. 

[Swindon 123]

On 28/11/2019 at 18:09, rogerzilla said:

I remember most BR diesel locos being pretty unreliable, having been stranded many times as a passenger. The HSTs were a revelation (or revolution - take your pick) in reliability when they turned up, and not just because they could limp on with one power car.

 

EWS realised pretty quickly that their whole inherited fleet was desperately unreliable and commissioned hundreds of Class 66s.  These may be a bit industrial-looking and American (yuck) but they are dependable.

HST's were not very reliable in the ECML in the mid 80's. Bounds Green had a lot of trouble with them due to them boiling away their coolant and resorted to putting a 45 gallon drum of coolant in the guards van part of the power car that could top up the coolant. Even that wasn't enough and to keep a service running only the Scottish trains were guaranteed two working power cars, to give them a chance of getting there. Shorter length services, such as to Leeds, had to make do with one working power car, as a colleague and myself found out when travelling down to Peterborough for our MP12 Part C exam in May 1984, The one working power car on the Leeds service we were travelling on,decided to pack up at Connington, leaving the train stranded there until a rescue loco arrived from Peterborough.

 

Paul J.

[scottystitch]

This will interest many of you here:

 

 

 

 

[russ p]

Excellent film , shame no long periods of exhaust noise

[Evertrainz]

That video is a real treat considering there doesn’t seem to be much true audio from the time period. I wonder if the audio in the film is the audio as-recorded or if it was added later on. It doesn’t sound like anything else so I’m assuming either way it was real audio of the Mirrlees engines. 

[John Hague]

On 25/11/2019 at 15:40, Neil Phillips said:

The first loco I saw with data panels was D838 Rapid at Plymouth North Road on 11/9/68. I remember wondering (a) what a Class 43 was, and (b) why Swindon had outshopped the loco in ex-works maroon nearly two years after switching to blue - and not necessarily in that order! Credible explanation still awaited......

I recall the news sections in the railway mags of the time showing the new data panels stuck to a Peak and a Deltic. Application could still be patchy though, ex-works 6585 seen at Exeter 2/1/69 didn't have any (locos outshopped without D prefixes or data panels must surely have been unusual).

Data panels are useful for dating photos too, e.g. D7045 was often included in lists of Hymeks in blue syp livery, but shots of it in green with data panels make that impossible.

From my own observations at the time the bulk of the depot-level TOPS renumbering of the BR loco fleet was achieved during February-April 1974. I'm interested in how this was organised and posted a request for info in Traction magazine a few years ago, but there were no takers......I live in hope!

Hi Neil,

 

It's been a long time. Do you remember helping me research my article on Corporate Identity on BR?

 

Looking with Russ at when TOPS Data Panels were introduced. Do you know the correct date? I assumed 1969 but Russ thought 68. Seems he's correct reading this.

 

Best wishes 

 

John

[Halvarras]

Hello John,

 

I certainly do! And it has indeed been a long time. That supplement ("Un-Corporate Image") was issued with TRACTION 90 and BRM both April 2002 - the former is in my loft and the latter's supplement, now rather dog-eared, has been close at hand for the past 18 years although currently temporarily mislaid due to a house move in late January (blimey that was close......!) My 30 minutes daily exercise allowance will just about get me to St Blazey depot to see.....er.....not a lot these days  Although yesterday I went in search of first-built CDA 375000, having photographed it there brand new on 14/9/87, and it was the third one I looked at!!! Should have played the lottery.....

 

I have seen The Stationmaster's interesting revelations in a separate thread on your question. In the intervening period nothing has come to light which adds to my comments above. Many years ago at a Bristol show I purchased a photo from Exe-Rail showing a spotless D838 in Mfy with data panels inside Swindon Works alongside D7000 in Gsy, unfortunately undated but most likely first week of September 1968. D7000 emerged in Gfy on 22/9/68 and a b&w photo of it passing through Swindon station that day appears to show it still without data panels; on the same day ex-works D1063 was photographed 'inside' with them so application in the early days was probably dependant on a full works repaint (which would also be true of TOPS renumbering five years later).

 

Please let Russ know he's correct, it was definitely 1968!

Regards,

Neil