Gresley Junction

[Tony Teague]

Looking good Andy!

[31A]

Very nice, Andy.  I like the brick wagon behind the O2!

 

[thegreenhowards]

13 minutes ago, 31A said:

Very nice, Andy.  I like the brick wagon behind the O2!

 

Thanks Steve,

 

Brick wagons in these trains are something I would like to learn more about. I have often seen it quoted that the loaded coal trains were headed by one or two brick wagons to provide brake force, but I have only found one or two photos of such workings. I suspect the practice was occasional rather than routine and I have no idea how the wagons got back to Peterborough. Did they return at the head of the empties, or in other fitted or semi fitted trains? I'm not aware of any photos of returning empty wagons - if anyone can point me in the right direction, please shout.

 

Andy

 

 

[31A]

Very good questions, which I have sometimes asked myself as well as I have a Parkside one to build, and an old Triang one that I might make presentable one day!

 

There's some information about it in the Wild Swan book "Goods Traffic of the LNER" (Geoff Goslin) which has a chapter on "Peterborough to London Coal and Brick Traffic".  I've just remembered about it, I'll have to read it again!  In the back of my mind I've read somewhere that the wagons were used to bring large quantities of bricks in connection with the London suburban expansion between the wars.

 

[thegreenhowards]

8 minutes ago, 31A said:

Very good questions, which I have sometimes asked myself as well as I have a Parkside one to build, and an old Triang one that I might make presentable one day!

 

There's some information about it in the Wild Swan book "Goods Traffic of the LNER" (Geoff Goslin) which has a chapter on "Peterborough to London Coal and Brick Traffic".  I've just remembered about it, I'll have to read it again!  In the back of my mind I've read somewhere that the wagons were used to bring large quantities of bricks in connection with the London suburban expansion between the wars.

 

I’ve ordered the book and look forward to digesting it.

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

 A subject dear to my heart, I run brick wagons on my Edgware layout, as the Edgware area underwent rapid expansion in the 20's and 30's.

 

You probably know they carried 20,000 bricks, so a couple of questions, how many bricks to build a house ??? I usually drop one off at Mill Hill 'The Hale' goods yard and another at Edgware, another question, How long to unload a Brick wagon ??

 

Most of Edgwares goods trains ran from Highbury Vale, yard/sidings (Ashburton Grove) eight times a day, even if every other goods train carried a brick wagon, for each goods yard (2) it's still eight wagons a day, so significant traffic.

 

As you have said, we don't see many pictures of them in traffic, but were they moved on the faster fitted coal K3 hauled trains, not seen many pictures of those workings.

 

manna

[31A]

Just re-read the chapter in the book I mentioned.  It includes an extract of through coal and brick trains between New England and Ferme Park.  In the up direction it list five as "Brick" trains; of these three ran in darkness (or nearly so) and two of those went via Hertford.  So that must have been a lot of bricks!  Of the up trains, one (7am New England-Ferme Park) is shown as standing at Hatfield 1258-1336 which the author surmises was to detach part of the load.  In the down direction the brick and coal trains are not distinguished from each other - they are just listed as Class A Empty Trains.  The chapter is mainly concerned with what happened before WW2, and in the 1930s in particular.

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

 A subject dear to my heart, I run brick wagons on my Edgware layout, as the Edgware area underwent rapid expansion in the 20's and 30's.

 

You probably know they carried 20,000 bricks, so a couple of questions, how many bricks to build a house ??? I usually drop one off at Mill Hill 'The Hale' goods yard and another at Edgware, another question, How long to unload a Brick wagon ??

 

Most of Edgwares goods trains ran from Highbury Vale, yard/sidings (Ashburton Grove) eight times a day, even if every other goods train carried a brick wagon, for each goods yard (2) it's still eight wagons a day, so significant traffic.

 

As you have said, we don't see many pictures of them in traffic, but were they moved on the faster fitted coal K3 hauled trains, not seen many pictures of those workings.

 

manna

As I'm sure you know, Terry, the Watling Estate, when built in the 1920s/30s, was the third-largest of the London County Council estates. About 4000 houses would have consumed rather a lot of bricks.

 

https://municipaldreams.wordpress.com/2014/09/30/the-watling-estate-burnt-oak-the-raw-red-tentacles-of-that-housing-octopus-the-london-county-council/

[great northern]

When Andy Rush was advising me a few years back he was particularly insistent that very little if any brick traffic would come north by my period. All of it, he said, would be London bound from Fletton. OK for you then Andy, though from what Steve has just posted it may have passed in darkness. Certainly I have seen very few, if any, photos.

[31A]

I've read somewhere (again ... I read so much then can't remember where I read it .... ) of temporary light railways being laid to take the wagon loads of bricks right into the housing estates under construction; I think the ones I read about were connected to the LNER High Barnet line.

 

I should perhaps have also mentioned the chapter in question does mention the practice of coupling the bogie brick wagons to coal trains as a 'fitted head' (in addition to the trains shown as "Brick" trains) and has a few pictures from the 1930s and 40s showing it, although sadly one of the pictures is mis captioned and the 'big' wagons at the front are loco coal wagons (non fitted)!

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

This would have been typical of Edgwares goods trains. 14 wagons was the max load.

 

manna

[Wingman Mothergoose]

2 minutes ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

This would have been typical of Edgwares goods trains. 14 wagons was the max load.

 

manna

Hi Manna,

I love your somersault signals! Are they in working order? Great photos of your layout too

 

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

Unfortunately, the somersaults don't work, but they look the part. Maybe one day.

 

manna 

[Wingman Mothergoose]

2 minutes ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

Unfortunately, the somersaults don't work, but they look the part. Maybe one day.

 

manna 

Either way they look great! Long term aspiration for me is to have working signals, but first I need to attempt to build an MSE NER slotted post signal kit. Looking forward to the challenger, as I've never built a soldered kit before

[thegreenhowards]

42 minutes ago, manna said:

G'Day Folks

 

This would have been typical of Edgwares goods trains. 14 wagons was the max load.

 

manna

Would that of been 14 brick wagons Or 14 SLUs. The former would be a massive train!

[manna]

G'day Folks

 

That would have been 14 SLU's ( 14 four wheel wagons) 14 brick wagons loaded, would be about 700 tons, loco and brake van, would have made it up to app. 850 tons, don't think it would have made it up to Edgware.

 

 

manna

Edited June 10, 2020 by manna
Added information.

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

Just re-read the chapter in the book I mentioned.  It includes an extract of through coal and brick trains between New England and Ferme Park.  In the up direction it list five as "Brick" trains; of these three ran in darkness (or nearly so) and two of those went via Hertford.  So that must have been a lot of bricks!  Of the up trains, one (7am New England-Ferme Park) is shown as standing at Hatfield 1258-1336 which the author surmises was to detach part of the load.  In the down direction the brick and coal trains are not distinguished from each other - they are just listed as Class A Empty Trains.  The chapter is mainly concerned with what happened before WW2, and in the 1930s in particular.

 

Steve,

 

Thanks for that info. Would the ‘brick’ trains have been block brick trains, or coal trains with one or two brick wagons at the front? 

 

11 hours ago, manna said:

You probably know they carried 20,000 bricks, so a couple of questions, how many bricks to build a house ??? I usually drop one off at Mill Hill 'The Hale' goods yard and another at Edgware, another question, How long to unload a Brick wagon ??

 

As you have said, we don't see many pictures of them in traffic, but were they moved on the faster fitted coal K3 hauled trains, not seen many pictures of those workings.

 

manna

Interesting that you mention K3 hauled trains. The only photo I can put my hands on of a brick wagon in such a train is in Coster’s ‘Book of The Great Northern  Part 1’ (p185) which showed a K3 on such a working in 1949. Does this imply that when the K3s came off these workings (early ‘50s?) the Brick Wagons stopped being included in the trains?

 

I have not idea how many bricks to build a house, but looking out of my window at a small semi behind, it’s about 50 bricks tall by 50 wide (for two semis) so that’s 2,500 bricks minus windows for a back wall. Assuming that they were double skinned, the sides are half the back and the interior walls were not bricks, that would be C.15,000 bricks for a pair of semis, so just under one wagon. Can anyone improve on my very rudimentary quantity surveying?!

 

Andy

[St Enodoc]

5 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Steve,

 

Thanks for that info. Would the ‘brick’ trains have been block brick trains, or coal trains with one or two brick wagons at the front? 

 

Interesting that you mention K3 hauled trains. The only photo I can put my hands on of a brick wagon in such a train is in Coster’s ‘Book of The Great Northern  Part 1’ (p185) which showed a K3 on such a working in 1949. Does this imply that when the K3s came off these workings (early ‘50s?) the Brick Wagons stopped being included in the trains?

 

I have not idea how many bricks to build a house, but looking out of my window at a small semi behind, it’s about 50 bricks tall by 50 wide (for two semis) so that’s 2,500 bricks minus windows for a back wall. Assuming that they were double skinned, the sides are half the back and the interior walls were not bricks, that would be C.15,000 bricks for a pair of semis, so just under one wagon. Can anyone improve on my very rudimentary quantity surveying?!

 

Andy

Where's @chris p bacon when you need him?

[manna]

G'day Folks

 

I looked on the net, I only found one picture, and that was of a WD hauling one brick wagon at the head of a coal train.

 

manna

[chris p bacon]

34 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Where's @chris p bacon when you need him?

 

You rang....

 

40 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I have not idea how many bricks to build a house, but looking out of my window at a small semi behind, it’s about 50 bricks tall by 50 wide (for two semis) so that’s 2,500 bricks minus windows for a back wall. Assuming that they were double skinned, the sides are half the back and the interior walls were not bricks, that would be C.15,000 bricks for a pair of semis, so just under one wagon. Can anyone improve on my very rudimentary quantity surveying?!

 

 

 

 The terraces in London and the suburbs consumed varying quantities and qualities of bricks. You're probably looking at 2000 facing bricks per house with the inner skin and internals made up of rejects and 2nds. Lots of these rejects were made on site from inferior clay dug from the ground. 

A detached house could easily use 7000 facing bricks and 10,000 for the inner skin and internals.

 

In conversation at a GNRS meeting it was stated by a member who worked for the brick company and had researched the subject that the 50 Ton wagons were used for brake force on coal trains with 2 at most used. We have to remember that without mechanical handling these would have taken a long time to load and unload and stacking areas would have been needed. They would have been returned to P'boro on any down goods.

 

[31A]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

Steve,

 

Thanks for that info. Would the ‘brick’ trains have been block brick trains, or coal trains with one or two brick wagons at the front? 

 

Interesting that you mention K3 hauled trains. The only photo I can put my hands on of a brick wagon in such a train is in Coster’s ‘Book of The Great Northern  Part 1’ (p185) which showed a K3 on such a working in 1949. Does this imply that when the K3s came off these workings (early ‘50s?) the Brick Wagons stopped being included in the trains?

 

I have not idea how many bricks to build a house, but looking out of my window at a small semi behind, it’s about 50 bricks tall by 50 wide (for two semis) so that’s 2,500 bricks minus windows for a back wall. Assuming that they were double skinned, the sides are half the back and the interior walls were not bricks, that would be C.15,000 bricks for a pair of semis, so just under one wagon. Can anyone improve on my very rudimentary quantity surveying?!

 

Andy

 

It implies that the trains shown as brick trains were literally that, block brick trains.

 

It mentions the bogie brick wagons being used to provide extra brake power at the head of two 'fast' (Class A) coal trains - 6.30 am and 8.25 am from New England, which were K3 hauled- "a load of 56 wagons of coal and, to ensure sufficient brake power was available, a loaded vacuum-fitted 50 ton bogie brick wagon was marshalled next to the engine and a 20 ton brake van was provided".

 

Only two of the pictures with the chapter actually show bogie brick wagons; one is at Greenwood with K3 61862 in 1949.  The other shows two loaded brick wagons behind an O2 at Greenwood in 1936.  I think the caption to that picture might also be in error unfortunately, as it describes the train as a coal train, but behind the brick wagons seem to be two of the Bogie Sulphate Wagons (as per Parkside kit and "Ashburton Pullman" fame), then followed by more ordinary merchandise wagons (not mineral wagons) which may well be loaded with bricks but too distant to be sure.  Interesting to see the Bogie Sulphate Wagons as I didn't realise they were used in that area at the time.  They appear at first sight to be empty but it could be that they are loaded with bricks but only partially so, to avoid overloading them.  So I wonder whether it's actually a picture of one of the up brick trains.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

You rang....

 

 

 The terraces in London and the suburbs consumed varying quantities and qualities of bricks. You're probably looking at 2000 facing bricks per house with the inner skin and internals made up of rejects and 2nds. Lots of these rejects were made on site from inferior clay dug from the ground. 

A detached house could easily use 7000 facing bricks and 10,000 for the inner skin and internals.

 

In conversation at a GNRS meeting it was stated by a member who worked for the brick company and had researched the subject that the 50 Ton wagons were used for brake force on coal trains with 2 at most used. We have to remember that without mechanical handling these would have taken a long time to load and unload and stacking areas would have been needed. They would have been returned to P'boro on any down goods.

 

And needed a lot of cheap labour, hence Peterborough and Bedford having large populations of non indigenous people.  At the other end of the line would be gangs of men who went from one building site to the next. I was watching a video on You Tube about the large number of elderly single Irishmen living in England. Where these chaps went from one job to the next they were never anywhere long enough to form a long lasting relationship and never married. Sorry for wandering off topic but the way railways have had an impact on society is very interesting to me. The humble brick wagon is just one railway item which added to today's society in a small way. 

[thegreenhowards]

3 hours ago, manna said:

G'day Folks

 

I looked on the net, I only found one picture, and that was of a WD hauling one brick wagon at the head of a coal train.

 

manna

Hi ‘Manna’,

 

I searched and didn’t turn that photo up. Any chance of a link?

 

Andy

[thegreenhowards]

Another couple of projects completed today:

 

1. Six fish vans bought off eBay nicely built but unpainted; and

2. a V2, 60869 also from eBay which needed some renovation and detailing.

 

Combined they form the up Hull fish train As seen on p53 of a Yeadon V.4 at Great Ponton with this very locomotive (The first six vans are my new ones).

 

And here’s the video.

 

 

[manna]

G'Day Folks

 

I've re-found the picture, but cannot do anything with it, downloaded it, but can't open it, I can't even give you an address. It's on the HMRS site. I found it by typing in 'LNER Brick Wagon', then going to images, it's about a third of the way down the page, not a good thumbnail. It says it's '50t 6 plank brick wagon Hornsey, 1957' so they were still in service, 35 years of hard service.

 

manna