Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On 23/11/2019 at 08:57, thegreenhowards said:

Gresley and Thompson catering cars are so elegant that one can never have enough! I accept that you may have more than you strictly need for some trains. However, correct if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember that you’re missing a few of the more esoteric cars such as D.258 and  D.275 buffets, and that strange one with a few seats that ran in one of the Cleethorpes trains.

 

Personally speaking, I find catering cars like Pacifics - I love them, so I’ll have more than I strictly need.

 

Andy

 

I should have said that I have more loose catering stock than I need Andy. As you know, there is plenty more within the trains that live permanently in the fiddle yard. Now that I have my colour coded spreadsheet  of trains made up from cassettes, it becomes much easier to see what is actually required. As I see it, there are only five trains with RBs in the formation, plus that one Cleethorpes with the one off RKB. I need one Dia 167 for the York service, and the rest should be Dia 168 in summer 58, though I also have that GN car which I couldn't resist, so If I get more they are going to see very little use. I don't know of any way to do that RKB  by the way, or even any plan to work from if considering scratchbuilding.

 

How long is the fiddle yard road which butts onto your cassette spur?  I can make up eleven or twelve car rakes from three cassettes, and it can be done surprisingly quickly if you don't have any coupling incompatibilities.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Believe it or not that is a white background....or at least off-white as it hasn't been painted for 20+ years. It's just the light and the angle of the roof which renders it grey on the photo.

 

Tony Teague did try to teach me photoshopping, but it seemed an awful faff. Maybe once I got used to it, I would find it easier. What's the best free software to experiment with?

I use Paint.Net, which is a free programme, and even I can understand the basics. Used in conjunction with Windows Photo Gallery tools it does produce decent results. I won't spend hours on one image as the likes of Andy Y and TW have to do, and I can't understand the professional and expensive programmes they use at all, but I don't need to. I'll gladly give you a run down on Paint.Net if that helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, great northern said:

I should have said that I have more loose catering stock than I need Andy. As you know, there is plenty more within the trains that live permanently in the fiddle yard. Now that I have my colour coded spreadsheet  of trains made up from cassettes, it becomes much easier to see what is actually required. As I see it, there are only five trains with RBs in the formation, plus that one Cleethorpes with the one off RKB. I need one Dia 167 for the York service, and the rest should be Dia 168 in summer 58, though I also have that GN car which I couldn't resist, so If I get more they are going to see very little use. I don't know of any way to do that RKB  by the way, or even any plan to work from if considering scratchbuilding.

 

How long is the fiddle yard road which butts onto your cassette spur?  I can make up eleven or twelve car rakes from three cassettes, and it can be done surprisingly quickly if you don't have any coupling incompatibilities.

I'm sure you can find an excuse for the GN car - a d.168 must have been in works.

 

I would start building the RKB tomorrow if I could get a diagram or a picture. I have load of Kirk buffet sides (and a few others) lying around and I'm sure it would be possible to cut and shut. I just have no idea what it looked like.

 

The road adjoining the cassettes and kick backs easily takes 12 mark 1s between the points and I can add a loco at the up end of the train (over the kick back point) once it's put together before fouling the point onto the next road. So it's perfect for making up trains as you suggest. I see them mainly being made up from the kick back roads with a few less used items kept in cassettes. But I haven't used it in anger yet, so experience may change my mind.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, great northern said:

I use Paint.Net, which is a free programme, and even I can understand the basics. Used in conjunction with Windows Photo Gallery tools it does produce decent results. I won't spend hours on one image as the likes of Andy Y and TW have to do, and I can't understand the professional and expensive programmes they use at all, but I don't need to. I'll gladly give you a run down on Paint.Net if that helps.

Thanks, I'll download it and give it a try. Then I might fire some questions over if that's OK. But more than 5 mins per photo and I'd lose patience so don't expert the earth!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, great northern said:

I should have said that I have more loose catering stock than I need Andy. As you know, there is plenty more within the trains that live permanently in the fiddle yard. Now that I have my colour coded spreadsheet  of trains made up from cassettes, it becomes much easier to see what is actually required. As I see it, there are only five trains with RBs in the formation, plus that one Cleethorpes with the one off RKB. I need one Dia 167 for the York service, and the rest should be Dia 168 in summer 58, though I also have that GN car which I couldn't resist, so If I get more they are going to see very little use. I don't know of any way to do that RKB  by the way, or even any plan to work from if considering scratchbuilding.

 

How long is the fiddle yard road which butts onto your cassette spur?  I can make up eleven or twelve car rakes from three cassettes, and it can be done surprisingly quickly if you don't have any coupling incompatibilities.

Hi Andy and Gilbert

 

Sorry for taking up space on your thread Andy. Gilbert, is the Cleethorpes buffet E9154 E the lone diagram 185? If so do you have a Kirk Third Open? I think it is possible to convert it from a Third Open, just like the real one was.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Andy and Gilbert

 

Sorry for taking up space on your thread Andy. Gilbert, is the Cleethorpes buffet E9154 E the lone diagram 185? If so do you have a Kirk Third Open? I think it is possible to convert it from a Third Open, just like the real one was.

As it is so horrible outside, and dark inside too, I have been doing some detective though possibly defective work on this. Pre war, the Dia185, which internally was apparently almost identical to a Dia 167 car was allocated to the NE region, which would be logical, as most Dia 167s were up there. It seems very likely that it stayed there post war too. There were two Grimsby/Cleethorpes trains, one of which had what is described as an RB, and which Andy has identified as a Tourist buffet. The other one had what is shown as an RKB, and ran in the 6.50am Up and 6.45pm Down trains. It is shown as having only four seats, and a weight of 39 tons, so it can't be the Dia 185.

 

Banks/Carter state that three restaurant cars were rebuilt into RKBs for the Eastern region, and that one of them went into the Cleethorpes-KX. They go on to say that as only three seats were provided an open vehicle was also needed to serve passengers requiring full meals. The formation of the 6.50/6.45 is shown in my book as having in it a 48 seater SO, of which 30 seats were allocated for service of meals. Briefly putting on my lawyering hat, I find beyond reasonable doubt that this was indeed one of those that Banks/Carter refer to.

 

Next I have to refer Your Lordships to Harris, who states that nine vehicles, six former sleeping cars and three Dia 11 Restaurant cars were converted in the early 50s. Could this be one of those RCs?  No, it couldn't, as these nine cars were converted to RCAF, and ran on the Southern region. Other than this, Harris appears to be silent.

 

So, we have a converted RC, presumably Gresley, but no diagram number either for the original or the rebuilt car. The Cafetaria cars are shown in the appendix to Harris, but nothing else.

 

My fee for this advice, which gets us absolutely nowhere, would be two hundred guineas if I were still working but I'm not, and you wouldn't have paid me anyway. All it has done is to pass a bit of time on a wet and dreary day. I fear we have reached a dead end, unless anyone knows otherwise.

  • Informative/Useful 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably GIMP.

I may have shown you photoshopping nut I rarely use it! - too much faff!

Tony

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, great northern said:

As it is so horrible outside, and dark inside too, I have been doing some detective though possibly defective work on this. Pre war, the Dia185, which internally was apparently almost identical to a Dia 167 car was allocated to the NE region, which would be logical, as most Dia 167s were up there. It seems very likely that it stayed there post war too. There were two Grimsby/Cleethorpes trains, one of which had what is described as an RB, and which Andy has identified as a Tourist buffet. The other one had what is shown as an RKB, and ran in the 6.50am Up and 6.45pm Down trains. It is shown as having only four seats, and a weight of 39 tons, so it can't be the Dia 185.

 

Banks/Carter state that three restaurant cars were rebuilt into RKBs for the Eastern region, and that one of them went into the Cleethorpes-KX. They go on to say that as only three seats were provided an open vehicle was also needed to serve passengers requiring full meals. The formation of the 6.50/6.45 is shown in my book as having in it a 48 seater SO, of which 30 seats were allocated for service of meals. Briefly putting on my lawyering hat, I find beyond reasonable doubt that this was indeed one of those that Banks/Carter refer to.

 

Next I have to refer Your Lordships to Harris, who states that nine vehicles, six former sleeping cars and three Dia 11 Restaurant cars were converted in the early 50s. Could this be one of those RCs?  No, it couldn't, as these nine cars were converted to RCAF, and ran on the Southern region. Other than this, Harris appears to be silent.

 

So, we have a converted RC, presumably Gresley, but no diagram number either for the original or the rebuilt car. The Cafetaria cars are shown in the appendix to Harris, but nothing else.

 

My fee for this advice, which gets us absolutely nowhere, would be two hundred guineas if I were still working but I'm not, and you wouldn't have paid me anyway. All it has done is to pass a bit of time on a wet and dreary day. I fear we have reached a dead end, unless anyone knows otherwise.

Clive,

 

You're most welcome to take up as much space as you like on this sort of question. This sort of debate is one of the reasons I love RMWeb and as Gilbert will testify, I often take up space on his thread asking just such a question.

 

Coming back to the RKB on the 1845 KGX-Cleethorpes. It was a 1953 conversion of a D.16 RT. To quote Carter in Backtrack Nov 1996, "The Eastern Region selected three LNER third class restaurant cars built in 1924 for conversion to RKB (table 3). remodelling was extensive. Most of the interior was given over to the kitchen but left room for four seats...………….Following conversion in 1953 the cars were allocated to the GE, GN and GC lines...………..One the GN the RKB ran in the 6.20am Cleethorpes to King's Cross, returning at 6.18pm." The 6.18pm ran later by 1958 and this was definitely the vehicle. The numbers were E9063E/ E9064E and E9065E however, I do not know which of the three conversions was allocated to the GN. I have the diagram for D.16, but not for the rebuild which I imagine had much more panelling and less windows. As I said earlier, if I had the diagram I think it would be an easy cut and shut from Kirk bits.

 

Andy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, great northern said:

As it is so horrible outside, and dark inside too, I have been doing some detective though possibly defective work on this. Pre war, the Dia185, which internally was apparently almost identical to a Dia 167 car was allocated to the NE region, which would be logical, as most Dia 167s were up there. It seems very likely that it stayed there post war too. There were two Grimsby/Cleethorpes trains, one of which had what is described as an RB, and which Andy has identified as a Tourist buffet. The other one had what is shown as an RKB, and ran in the 6.50am Up and 6.45pm Down trains. It is shown as having only four seats, and a weight of 39 tons, so it can't be the Dia 185.

 

Banks/Carter state that three restaurant cars were rebuilt into RKBs for the Eastern region, and that one of them went into the Cleethorpes-KX. They go on to say that as only three seats were provided an open vehicle was also needed to serve passengers requiring full meals. The formation of the 6.50/6.45 is shown in my book as having in it a 48 seater SO, of which 30 seats were allocated for service of meals. Briefly putting on my lawyering hat, I find beyond reasonable doubt that this was indeed one of those that Banks/Carter refer to.

 

Next I have to refer Your Lordships to Harris, who states that nine vehicles, six former sleeping cars and three Dia 11 Restaurant cars were converted in the early 50s. Could this be one of those RCs?  No, it couldn't, as these nine cars were converted to RCAF, and ran on the Southern region. Other than this, Harris appears to be silent.

 

So, we have a converted RC, presumably Gresley, but no diagram number either for the original or the rebuilt car. The Cafetaria cars are shown in the appendix to Harris, but nothing else.

 

My fee for this advice, which gets us absolutely nowhere, would be two hundred guineas if I were still working but I'm not, and you wouldn't have paid me anyway. All it has done is to pass a bit of time on a wet and dreary day. I fear we have reached a dead end, unless anyone knows otherwise.

Cor Blimey only a lawyer could say no using so many words.

 

Two thoughts,

1, It is the Cafeteria prototype E13369E? I haven't found a photo as yet. 

2, It is a GER restaurant car converted to Buffet/Cafeeteria car. I have found some photos on the HMRS site. Hugh Longworth's book does not state which ones were converted to buffets or how many bottoms could be sat down in them. 

 

 

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Clive,

 

You're most welcome to take up as much space as you like on this sort of question. This sort of debate is one of the reasons I love RMWeb and as Gilbert will testify, I often take up space on his thread asking just such a question.

 

Coming back to the RKB on the 1845 KGX-Cleethorpes. It was a 1953 conversion of a D.16 RT. To quote Carter in Backtrack Nov 1996, "The Eastern Region selected three LNER third class restaurant cars built in 1924 for conversion to RKB (table 3). remodelling was extensive. Most of the interior was given over to the kitchen but left room for four seats...………….Following conversion in 1953 the cars were allocated to the GE, GN and GC lines...………..One the GN the RKB ran in the 6.20am Cleethorpes to King's Cross, returning at 6.18pm." The 6.18pm ran later by 1958 and this was definitely the vehicle. The numbers were E9063E/ E9064E and E9065E however, I do not know which of the three conversions was allocated to the GN. I have the diagram for D.16, but not for the rebuild which I imagine had much more panelling and less windows. As I said earlier, if I had the diagram I think it would be an easy cut and shut from Kirk bits.

 

Andy

Hi Andy

 

Our post seemed to have crossed in the cybersphere. I should imagine the corridor side would have remained as it was. It would have been behind the buffet counter where any changes would have been made. As Gilbert's layout is a roundy roundy as long as he keeps the corridor side on view only, he can put up with a guess of the kitchen side. :whistle:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Clive,

 

You're most welcome to take up as much space as you like on this sort of question. This sort of debate is one of the reasons I love RMWeb and as Gilbert will testify, I often take up space on his thread asking just such a question.

 

Coming back to the RKB on the 1845 KGX-Cleethorpes. It was a 1953 conversion of a D.16 RT. To quote Carter in Backtrack Nov 1996, "The Eastern Region selected three LNER third class restaurant cars built in 1924 for conversion to RKB (table 3). remodelling was extensive. Most of the interior was given over to the kitchen but left room for four seats...………….Following conversion in 1953 the cars were allocated to the GE, GN and GC lines...………..One the GN the RKB ran in the 6.20am Cleethorpes to King's Cross, returning at 6.18pm." The 6.18pm ran later by 1958 and this was definitely the vehicle. The numbers were E9063E/ E9064E and E9065E however, I do not know which of the three conversions was allocated to the GN. I have the diagram for D.16, but not for the rebuild which I imagine had much more panelling and less windows. As I said earlier, if I had the diagram I think it would be an easy cut and shut from Kirk bits.

 

Andy

It's not fair. You have got more books than what I have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Andy

 

Our post seemed to have crossed in the cybersphere. I should imagine the corridor side would have remained as it was. It would have been behind the buffet counter where any changes would have been made. As Gilbert's layout is a roundy roundy as long as he keeps the corridor side on view only, he can put up with a guess of the kitchen side. :whistle:

You know very well what would happen Clive. I would forget, and take a photo of the wrong side, and the day after that a photo of the real thing would also turn up.

  • Agree 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The RKB is out of my modelling era ..... but I like a bit of detective work so I will keep my eyes open! Steve Banks’ web site has a section on LNER buffet cars and at the bottom of the page it says “to be continued to cover British Rail developments” ( or words to that effect). So you never know ... could be worth keeping an eye on.

 

Jon

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Cor Blimey only a lawyer could say no using so many words.

 

Two thoughts,

1, It is the Cafeteria prototype E13369E? I haven't found a photo as yet. 

2, It is a GER restaurant car converted to Buffet/Cafeeteria car. I have found some photos on the HMRS site. Hugh Longworth's book does not state which ones were converted to buffets or how many bottoms could be sat down in them. 

 

 

I have now https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/new-railway-catering-idea-from-hotels-executive-and-british-news-photo/3225740

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Today's tour round the layout is the section leading from 'Welwyn' viaduct to the road bridge where the layout dives through a wall and into the other room in the loft. The curve is forced by circumnavigating the water tanks, but I've kept it fairly gradual. Here we have a Baby Deltic on a typical Cambridge semi fast set headed by a Kirk Gresley BSK(3) passing the tail end of an up fish train.

 

9DFFFDB1-4057-497D-A5D6-78BFC5874612.jpeg.0d98473885a95e6d16d134ce9e8eaf3d.jpeg1BCD7956-23E4-43CF-B258-A7BB9FD14BD7.jpeg.b3a882a8e65a5c008c777353eabd05e5.jpeg

 

The signals are the Dapol type. They are strictly southern in outline and I'm sure that a signal guru will tell me off, but they look like LNER lattice signals to me. They work automatically fired by a Heathcote electronics infra red 'Dapol Signal Sequence' which works very reliably and ensures that the signals go back to danger which is something that I never remember to do!

 

The bridge and retaining wall are from Scalescenes and the 'green' scenic work is again done with my daughter, Ellen.

 

These photos were taken on my iPhone rather than my expensive NikonD80 but I think they’re better. Any views?

 

Andy

Edited by thegreenhowards
Inserting photos from phone
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great to see another GN based layout, and I look forward to future instalments.

 

I had wondered about the use of Dapol SR lattice signals myself on my own layout and think that they look OK.  For me, the alternative would have to be Hornby Dublo! 

 

Would a signal located next to a signal box carry a white diamond?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Nice photo Clive, but definitely not what we are looking for. Andy having told me that these were conversions from third class RCs, I've gone back to Harris again, and found more detail. It looks as though all three were indeed conversions from Dia 16. One was in the Cleethorpes, I'm sure I read somewhere that another was in the Newcastle- Colchester, and the third was in the Harwich- Liverpool boat train. The latter two both ran through Lincoln, and I saw them many times, but a teenage oik was never going to notice coaching stock.

 

However, the car in the boat train was detached at Sheffield Victoria, and shunted back onto the front of the train when it arrived back from Liverpool by the B17 which would take it on from there. I know that somewhere I have a book which contains a photo showing the B17 and RKB in a siding at Victoria. That's the good news. The bad news is that I don't have a clue which book it is in.

  • Thanks 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, 2750Papyrus said:

Would a signal located next to a signal box carry a white diamond?

I'm no signalling expert. My understanding is that the white diamond indicates that the signal is associated with a track circuit, so I would have thought that that could be true next to a signal box, but I'm willing to be corrected.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, great northern said:

It's not fair. You have got more books than what I have.

 

8 hours ago, great northern said:

 That's the good news. The bad news is that I don't have a clue which book it is in.

 

I think the problem may be that you have too many books rather than too few! 

 

To be fair, I often have the same problem with photos in books, but those three Carter Backtrack articles on LNER catering vehicles are in the ready reference pile which never gets put away.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would the signals look more LNER with the finials cut off?  Look up a photo before taking a scalpel to them, though...

 

Les

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This morning I will describe the first section in the main scenic room. This emerges from a tunnel immediately the other side of the dividing wall and gently curves round the water tank. At this stage the two track section becomes four with two headshunts leading back to the tunnel mouth.

 

F2676BC9-0A37-4E3F-8A1C-483E10034561.jpeg.6ce0512737684e581b0bb98917144bf7.jpeg

A2/2 60506 Wolf of Badenoch (DJH) leaving the tunnel mouth and about to cross to the slow line.

 

The point entering the two track section on the up line (immediately in front of the 'Wolf') is Peco large radius, but has been treated to the 'Graham Nicholas' manipulation to make it a sort of off-set 'Y' point. This keeps the radius on the mainline at c.75". I would really like a much larger radius point and have been tempted to replace it with the code 83 version, but that would have sleeper spacing issues and I'm not sure it would join to my code 100 track. The signal is standard Hornby and is manual. I have just ordered a Heathcote semaphore bouncing servo controller, so it will shortly be automated. In the long term, I anticipate a GNR style gantry over the four tracks at this point built from the MSE kit, but I need to build up my confidence with MSE kits gradually - so far I've just built a single arm kit.

 

The farm scene behind is a another 'father and daughter' creation which fills the corner nicely.

 

DC3BFE8C-EB30-46D4-AE35-985C0C2AC3B1.jpeg.f0fa2f826312ab2878d95d6a05f4b7f3.jpeg

This photo is looking the other way. V2, 60850 (Bachmann heavily weathered) heads the down Aberdeen blue spot fish empties round the curve. On the left we have goods holding sidings (in practice a place to dump wagons that I'm not using!) and in the background my industrial area - more of that tomorrow.

 

 

 

Edited by thegreenhowards
Inserting photos
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Les1952 said:

Would the signals look more LNER with the finials cut off?  Look up a photo before taking a scalpel to them, though...

 

Les

Hi Les,

Thanks for your comment. I held off replying hoping that someone more knowledgeable about signalling would step in. My understanding is that the finial was the mark of the signal manufacturer and not unique to the Southern. There was certainly a similar finial on the one LNER signal kit from MSE that I have built

(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/135510-coulsdon-works/&do=findComment&comment=3663331).

 

But I stand to be corrected as I find signalling a rather confusing subject!

 

Andy

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Moving on round the layout we come to the first set of trailing slips. These take trains from the station area out onto the down fast or into the headshunt for goods sidings on the down side. 

478979638_K1onoiltrain.jpg.8126aa3edcfb6665acbce80637c97902.jpg

Here we have K1 62059 (Hornby) on a rake of oil tanks crossing from the station area (where it has recessed for a crew change) back onto the down fast to continue it's journey northbound. The first point and diamond crossing have been slightly curved to fit in with the sweep round the bend. I've skipped past the area on the right of the K1 which will be an industrial site, but is in the early stages of development.

 

Moving on round the layout the corner is occupied by a gas works

1712587778_J50Barnetgas.jpg.a670023e3efaf2b2398a44768656d932.jpg

Here we have J50, 68989 (Lima body with Jackson Evans detailing and /4 conversion kit on a Bachmann Pannier chassis) on my equivalent of the Barnet gas train. This area of the layout is relatively complete, but I still need to add some pipes to the Gas holder complex.

 

Finally for today we have a general view over the station goods yard with a DJ Models austerity in the foreground.

431794279_Goodsyard.jpg.a01097314391abeb15110cbab9eb404a.jpg

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.