Accurascale and the 'Bachmann' word

[Nick-L]

With all these announcements and more scheduled at Warley, I have been contemplating a little wider analysis of model types could be started, admittedly covering my particular interest in OO gauge diesel and electric locomotives. I will admit I thought a bit before posting this… being as I have been a more of a lurker.  Having thought a fair bit around recent developments and chatted a fair bit ‘offline’, I thought it worth a shot to see what others think about this.  And with thanks to newbyford who was perhaps thinking the same way as myself:

 

 

So, what started off as a pub table discussion about Accurascale’s Class 37 with a couple of mates over a pint has become more wide-ranging. I find the way the model market is shape-shifting absolutely fascinating. Those into aircraft construction kits, like myself, will find many parallels with new entrants coming all the time, and a fair bit of duplication to boot.

 

Accurascale are clearly well resourced, undoubtedly enthusiastic, are full of optimism and have significant marketing clout (counting a PR professional amongst their ranks) with very eye-catching stands at Ally Pally and the NEC. They have picked-up where the Canadian’s left off it seems, after Rapido seem to have come to the conclusion that the UK was not paved with gold… With four AS/IRM locomotives announced (Deltic – Due Q4 2019; IR A Class – Due Q4 2019; Class 92 – Due Q1 2020; Class 37 – Due Q4 2020) it is a shame that two of these are already seeing some slippage and a third (Class 92), a significant delay. Still, those of us relying on manufacturer’s announcements are more than familiar (happy?) with long delays… I’m personally mindful of where this can lead having seen a large sum disappear with a now defunct company. Success breeds success and looking back at the early days of Accurascale they said project announcements will only be made when the models are only 10-16 weeks months away from delivery, that now seems to have shifted somewhat. The direct-to-market sale model also seems to have been re-interpreted. Maybe we should cut them some slack though? The pre-work on new releases looks great, and the HUO’s I have are certainly top drawer. 

 

More importantly, what will be the effect on the Big Four?

 

There was a post somewhere that suggested that Bachmann might not be best pleased with recent developments. As Bjørge Lillelien might have said, the Barwell boys are taking ‘one hell of a beating’ as the information below bears out. I’d have loved to have been a fly-on-the-wall when they heard that their core diesel loco models (37, 47, 66) had all been announced by other companies. They are seeing core product picked off all over with Heljan taking a big chunk (47, 45, 25) and Accurascale taking on on two long-term popular sellers (37, 55). Hattons’ (66) will make a significant effect in the next few months. This must be especially concerning for those at Barwell because both Hattons and Accurascale will have models with numerous livery options and are currently developing and expanding their own retail networks to extend their market reach. Let’s also not forget that retailer commissions are also risk-free revenue that may be lost to Bachmann. There is, however, a protective defence being mounted, with several recent revamps having taken place recently or pending (20, 24/25, 40, 45, 42). Having had its large range chipped-away ineffectively by several new but very small entrants, my thinking is that Bachmann simply cannot ignore so many of its core products (popular diesels) to be rendered obsolete by bigger concerns in the immediate future. Will there be a fight back very soon, and at express speed, with a majorly revamped Class 37, Deltic or even a Class 47. Probably after a final big push of the existing toolings with an accompanying price incentive a la Class 66! Can they afford not to react? Surely, at least, they should try and make a race of it?

 

Hornby are in a different position, having concentrated on steam locos of late. Many of their diesels are from their early-2000s purple-patch and are pretty good (older doesn’t automatically translate to bad). The Accurascale Class 37 could be a cause for concern at Hornby as it also provides the bogies for a certain Class 50… Could the Hoover be vulnerable (see below also)? Their electric locos are being picked off (admittedly these were very old tooling) with only its hold on the Class 87 tightened due to last year’s all-new model. However, the Margate team have always said they want core items in the range that have longevity (the explanation given for the Class 08 duplication way back) so who would bet against them having a bash at a decent Class 37 or 47 on January 6th. Both of these have a long Tri-ang/early-Hornby sentimental heritage which will help with the marketing, not that they need it with such a strong brand name. As someone else on here put it, I cannot help thinking the timing of the Irish Class 37 reveal was unscheduled and seemed a bit pre-emptive – could this be the real reason? The news was the worst kept secret in the diesel modelling community due to a lot of gossiping.

 

The Danes – Heljan - have been prolific in recent years and have become even more active in the last few months with an incredible number of announcements in both OO and O gauges, all heavily promoted by their agent in the UK. They are not afraid of bold duplication or going up against Bachmann as shown by the recent big announcements (47, 45, 25) which sees them explore a more competitive market than the odd-balls they were previously fond of. They also seem market aware with several protectionist revamps taking place (86, 33) and minor rejigs to other classes to keep them fresh and off anybody else’s radar. The new items seem to be making use of O gauge development work (research and CAD) to sensibly save time and money. What have they got in the senior scale that could make major impact in the OO market?  37/4 or 50 anyone?

 

Dapol have ramped-up production in recent years and are spread across three gauges. In OO, their Class 68 is impressive and other items are of recent parentage are pretty accurate if not the most reliable of performers. They seem to have enough on their plate with the Class 59 coming to fruition and the Danish challenging them in O gauge. The in 7mm scale Class 66 must be a very big project for them and the attraction of better margins in this scale may mean a scaled-up Class 68 could be on the cards. The Chirk OO range seems safe from threat for the time being - I suspect they are glad to be keeping a low-profile in the current melee. I do expect the dual-mode Class 88 sooner or later, though.

 

There is an awful lot of planned projects here (with more to come). Will it all arrive? On time, very late or at all? Can we afford it all? There are some mighty big log-jams heading our way. For instance, Accurascale’s Class 37 and 92 will now arrive at the same time: Q4 2020. Is this strategy sustainable in the light of DJM, etc.? Are the sales sufficient to support so much duplication? Maybe they are, noting that It is common for the same loco to be available from several different manufacturers in Europe and the US. 

 

Perhaps, somebody else can take up the challenge to produce a similar body of work for steam and units. I must admit that much my info is from memory so dates may need changing/correcting in the table below. I apologies in advance for any errors or omissions. Maybe the Mods might want this long piece to move into general discussions if this isn’t the place?

 

Bachmann   

Class                Superseded by

03/04               Bachmann revamped 2012

08                    *Hornby 2010

20                    Bachmann revamp 2020

24                    *SLW 2015 + Bachmann revamp 2020

25                    *Heljan 2020 + Bachmann revamp 2020?

37                    *Accrascale 2020

40                    Bachmann revamped 2014

42/43              Bachmann revamped 2015

44/45/46        *Heljan 2020  Bachmann minor revamp 2020

47                    *Heljan 2020

55                    *Accurascale 2019

57                    (Overtook Heljan in 2008)

66                    *Hattons 2019

70                    New in 2013

85                    New in 2014

90                    New in 2019 (targeted Hornby)

DP1                 New in 200?

10000/1         New in 200?

 

Hornby (recent)

Class                Superseded by

08/09              New in? (targeted Bachmann)

31                    New in? (replaced Lima)

43 HST            New in? (replaced Lima)

50                    New in? (replaced Lima

56                    New in? (replaced Dapol)

60                    New in? (replaced Lima)

67                    New in? (replaced Lima)

71                    New in 2016

73                    *Dapol 2017

87                    New in 2018 (replace Lima)

91                    *Cavalex 2020

90                    *Bachmann 2019

92                    *Accurascale 2020

 

Heljan           

Class                Superseded by

05                    New in 2015

07                    New in 2018

14                    New in ?

15                    New in ?

16                    New in ?

17                    New in ?

23                    New in ?

25                    New Model 2019 (targets Bachmann)

26                    New in ?

27                    New in ?

28                    New in ? (Hattons)

33                    Heljan revamp 2014

35                    New in 2006               

45                    New Model 2020 (targets Bachmann)

47                    *Bachmann 2012 + Heljan revamp/respond 2020 (targets Bachmann)

52                    *Dapol 2014

57                    *Bachmann 2012 + Heljan revamp/respond 2020?

58                    New in ?

DP2                  New in ?

Falcon              New in ?

Lion                 New in ?

Kestrel             New in ?

76/77              New in 2013 (Olivias)

86                    Heljan revamped 2019

 

Dapol

Class                Superseded by:

22                    New in 2015

21/29              New Model 2019 (targets old Hornby)

52                    New in 2014 (targeted Heljan)

59                    New Model 2020 (targets Hornby RR)

68                    New in 2017

73                    New in 2015 (targeted Hornby RR)

[Damo666]

38 minutes ago, Nick-L said:

… With four AS/IRM locomotives announced (Deltic – Due Q4 2019; IR A Class – Due Q4 2019; Class 92 – Due Q1 2020; Class 37 – Due Q4 2020) ....

 

There are some mighty big log-jams heading our way. For instance, Accurascale’s Class 37 and 92 will now arrive at the same time: Q4 2020.....

 

Amendment required to one of these figures?

[mdvle]

33 minutes ago, Nick-L said:

Accurascale are clearly well resourced, undoubtedly enthusiastic, are full of optimism and have significant marketing clout (counting a PR professional amongst their ranks) with very eye-catching stands at Ally Pally and the NEC. They have picked-up where the Canadian’s left off it seems, after Rapido seem to have come to the conclusion that the UK was not paved with gold…

 

Rapido are waiting for the fallout of Brexit to settle, as they have made clear, for their own branded items but they are still very active in the doing work for others department (Model Rail - GWR 1600 / LB&SCR E1, Revolution, RealTrack 142 coming next).  So its not a belief that the UK is not paved with gold, but rather difficult for a company located on a different continent to deal with the current ongoing saga, particularly when they have another market that can focus on in the short term.  But both Jason and Bill Schneider have a big interest in the UK rail scene so I would expect they will return when things settle down.

 

33 minutes ago, Nick-L said:

More importantly, what will be the effect on the Big Four?

 

It's clear the existing companies need to make some changes, and there are at least some signs that they are.

 

33 minutes ago, Nick-L said:

Bachmann simply cannot ignore so many of its core products (popular diesels) to be rendered obsolete by bigger concerns in the immediate future. Will there be a fight back very soon, and at express speed, with a majorly revamped Class 37, Deltic or even a Class 47.

 

The danger here is working on the assumption that what was popular 10 years ago must automatically also be popular now.

 

So yes, the Class 66 hurts, and perhaps the 37 and 47.  But some of the other perhaps not so much.

 

It might be wiser, and more financially advantageous, for Bachmann to lower their prices on some of these existing tooling items and instead look to items that may reflect the current market.

 

33 minutes ago, Nick-L said:

However, the Margate team have always said they want core items in the range that have longevity (the explanation given for the Class 08 duplication way back) so who would bet against them having a bash at a decent Class 37 or 47 on January 6th. Both of these have a long Tri-ang/early-Hornby sentimental heritage which will help with the marketing, not that they need it with such a strong brand name. As someone else on here put it, I cannot help thinking the timing of the Irish Class 37 reveal was unscheduled and seemed a bit pre-emptive – could this be the real reason? The news was the worst kept secret in the diesel modelling community due to a lot of gossiping.

 

Unlikely.

 

First, any reply from Hornby or Bachmann wouldn't be made public for another 6 weeks at least so there was still lots of time for an Accurascale announcement.

 

I think, even though many on here have come to expect announcements to be made at the big shows, the explanation from Accurascale is correct.  We see the same thing in the North American market, where many of the stuff that was previously announced at big trains shows now gets done in the 2 weeks prior to the show.  It means that they stand a better chance at getting their announcement out to the public (they can have at least a day to themselves, instead of being lost amongst several announcements all at once), and it means that they can be more responsive on social media to the inevitable questions that flood in (as opposed to being forced to leave social media in a vacuum for 2 or 3 days, with the dangers that can pose given the bad sad of social media).

 

33 minutes ago, Nick-L said:

Bachmann   

Class                Superseded by

47                    *Heljan 2020

 

Heljan           

Class                Superseded by

47                    *Bachmann 2012 + Heljan revamp/respond 2020 (targets Bachmann)

 

The Heljan 47 is due 2021, so in theory Bachmann could have a chance if they moved reasonably quickly - though the danger is by rushing things you end up with errors that annoy your potential customers.

[brenn]

The only ground Bachmann/Hornby have got to fight on now is the price point which due to the volume they can order in production means they should be able to drop their prices. The DMU/EMU market is still open for development, but again their recent releases have been getting ever more expensive....£200-£400 and at those price points they are unlikely to get volume sale post the first rush. like most of you here I have many 25,37,55s ( 14 in the Deltics case) but it's the quality of the Accurascale offering and the ability to pay in instalments that has meant I've got more Deltics on the way.

 

Bachmann's standard offerings are now not worth the prices points they are expecting, although slightly cheaper ( sound versions) they haven't got the wow factor that say the SLW  24 or the build quality for that matter. Bachmann's main line diesel fleet has nothing to the standards of the Hornby 50 or the Dapol 52 in my era ( BR Blue) but having said that the DMU/EMUs are the bench mark for others to attain. However the prices Bachmann expect for DMUS/EMUS mean that any model produced will struggle to get volume sales and so will take them much longer to recoup development costs. 

 

I welcome Accurascale entry in to the main stream diesel market as for to long  Bachmann has cornered the market in diesels which are not up to the standards we should now expect for £200 + locos 

 

B

[bazjones1711]

Perhaps one option is not to make more re runs of already available locos , make some of the rolling stock that has yet to be done for those model locos to pull .

[brenn]

Good point!...…….Still the price keeps rocketing up of those to.

[woodenhead]

This thread should be in a general thread not Accurascale - the change in the market is being driven from a few directions.

[adb968008]

Making a new tooling to compete against an old tooling is nothing new...

 

The Accurascale class 55 is the 4th such tooling replacing the Dublo, Lima and Bachmann ones.

The Dapol Western is actually the 5th such tooling replacing the Trix, Hornby, Lima & Heljan ones

Finally the new 6th !! generation Heljan class 47, replaces its own earlier tooling, plus those of Bachmann, Vitrains, Lima & Hornby prior...

At one point 4 versions of class 47 were on the shop shelves competing next to each other!

 

Its just a reflection, that some classes are popular, and if a tooling gets older, and the incumbent manufacturer gets a bit cheekier with the price, someone will come and have a bite.

 

Its worth pointing out many of Bachmanns toolings currently being sniped, were themselves a product of sniping Limas downfall.

Whilst you may be licking your wounds over expenditure on Bachmann 37/47/55 .. some models are high branch fruit... the Trix 81 and 124 are unchallenged 50 years later, The Lima class 20/ 31 & 67 still holds its own against what you paid for them.. its likely several Bachmann ones wont be challenged either for some years, like the 03/04/43/85/90..

 

It is cyclical though, At some point, the low hanging fruit runs out, and manufacturers needs to climb higher branches to thrive.., I for one am hoping tomorrow’s Big announcement is continuing the theme of the mk5’s and focussed on modern image (2020 style, not 1980s style), Whilst retooling is nice, when youve grown a forest its not so easy to cut it down and replace it overnight, and often you may skip a generation and focus on the new fauna growing in the gaps instead... Ive still got over 30 Lima 47’s on my roster, but just 1 of Heljans prior 47... I skipped ViTrains / Heljan and went for Bachmann replacing them 1 for 1.. indeed Bachmann 47’s will still be in my shopping list tomorrow, and i’m actually back in the market for Lima 31’s* despite their age as its clear that Hornby  has it sown up and isnt exploiting them, and it is appearing too hot for a competitor to take.

 

* depending on Warley tomorrow, which I see as a last hope.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by adb968008

[newbryford]

Looks like it's my fault for quite possibly the longest post in rmweb history. 

 

Sorry!

 

 

[adb968008]

3 minutes ago, newbryford said:

Looks like it's my fault for quite possibly the longest post in rmweb history. 

 

Sorry!

 

 

I was thinking to quote the first post and insert the list of older toolings that have existed in life before Bachmann... but could you imagine scrolling through that !!! 
 

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, newbryford said:

Looks like it's my fault for quite possibly the longest post in rmweb history. 

 

Sorry!

 

I've posted some pretty long stuff myself and don't feel that you owe me any apology!

 

Bachmann have a poisonous reputation for long lead times and apparently have just put back a loco that I have already been waiting 4 years for by another 4 months, the 94xx, though that is a little outside the remit of this thread's diesel and electric content.  They really need to get a grip on this situation; it is not entirely their fault but a failure to secure a production run in China 2 years ago cannot be blamed for the current situation. 

 

Hornby seem capable of announcing models with short lead times and delivering on time, though no doubt most have been in secret development for some considerably longer time than we were aware of them.  Blue box have IMHO let this situation get on top of them, to the detriment of their image and making them vulnerable to gazumping.

[wombatofludham]

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the other announcements being touted for Warley from Heljan or Accurascale was a 31.  It's a type that can stand competition and as Hornby seem to have some sort of problem with hearing the cries for more releases of their quality model in bread and butter liveries later than the 1960s (a Banger Blue 31/4 would be quite nice for example, especially if it had a stable Mazak formulation), and I think they are in danger of losing the initiative to a new model.  Mind you, if a new competing model was announced they would then probably do more releases of the Limby model in a wide range of liveries at pocket money prices in the Railroad range as they did with the 66, which actually I think would be a canny move as the volume of sales for a cheap, fully depreciated tooling would probably be good.  They might also get a kick up the posterior if "a n other" challenges them with a super-spec model, remember that they have a decent model in their range, and start putting it into some popular liveries - and such was the number of 31s and their widespread use, I actually think there would be room for that.  They have shown they can be really territorial with models they claim as their manor, so let's hope for a competing hi-fi OO Class 31to see if they can wake up and smell the toast before it burns.

I can't believe I've just made an argument for another 31 when I really, really want an 81 (and a Class 310 emu...)

[Matt]

Interesting times... I can't make up my mind whether the newer models will entice me away from my extensive collection of mostly Bachmann locos.  I can't deny that the level of detail is increasing all the time but is it needed?  Several new release wagon models I've bought recently from a range of manufacturers have seen bits fall off them on first getting them out of the box (and I wouldn't count myself as particularly ham-fisted).  I'm also not that convinced that some of the recent announcements are quite spot on (and i'm not referring to stuff announced in the last week or so and these comments aren't aimed at Accurascale) - for sure there are more bits but some of the detailing looks a little chunky compared to some of what has gone before - I will wait until I see in the flesh before deciding for sure though.  Final thing is that, despite some of my Bach locos perhaps being less detailed than they could be, they are still the most detailed part of my layout by a considerable margin - do I need more detail on my locos or do I need to try and bring the rest up to the same level as the locos?!  I would argue from my observations at shows that this is true in a lot of cases with only a small minority of layouts really matching the detail of the locos on the layout.

 

Did I switch wholescale from Lima to Bachmann / Hornby over past 15 years - yes but in large this was due to better running characteristics as well as better shape to most locos.  Will there be a step change in performance to make this case again for me - I don't think there will as my current fleet can mostly handle the loads they're asked to pull (~full length trains on < 1 in 30 gradients) with only a few exceptions (Bach 70 being an interesting case in point)).  

 

I'll probably eat my words in near future but at the moment I'm quite content with my mostly Bachmann fleet.

 

M

[owentherail]

Bachmann must be wondering what they have done, with others doing an improved 25 55 66 37 45 and 47 (tho same company) that Bachmann make, 

Yet nobody (yet) does a Hornby loco, like 56 60 31 and 50 (bar railroad stuff)  tho 60 ok they can't get livery correct 

[caradoc]

adb968008 I agree the 1980s should not be classed as 'modern image'.......for me that is the 1970s ! (I still regard TOPS numbers as  new).

[farren]

I don't think Bachmann are to worried. Most if not all are ten years plus old and have paid for themselves. Any older Bachmann models sold on on the likes of eBay will only help to reinforce the brand name in the new buyer. It is the way of the world.  They inproved on previous model and now theirs are superb seeded.  Bachmann are concentrating on other prototypes for now.

 

In ten years who's to to say this topic won't be running again but Bachmann and the 'Accurscale' word. When Bachmann decide to redo the class 37 24 55 has the now new models SLW 24 and Accurscale 37 55 will be old tat in some people eyes. 

 

And the new boys won't be new. On the plus side SLW may even have produced a new model has i could do with another £200 biscuit tin

Edited November 25, 2019 by farren

[Phil Parker]

On 23/11/2019 at 02:04, The Johnster said:

Hornby seem capable of announcing models with short lead times and delivering on time

 

Such as a Peckett and 48ds we were assured were on the boat in December last year? My Peckett turned up last month and I'm still waiting for the 48DS.

 

This isn't a criticism of Hornby, delays happen, but if you want to comment, at least base the comments on what's really happening. It's all very well saying the Accurascale 37 is brilliant - have you seen one? No, because apart from a 3D print it doesn't exist. I'm sure when it appears, it will be brilliant but if you have cash in your pocket right now, you can't buy one.

 

A couple of years ago, DJM was touted as the great saviour who was going to blow away the established manufacturers because he was small and agile. What happened there?

 

Final point: No-one is making a fortune in model railways. Models cost what they cost I'm afraid. Prices could drop, to the level where each one sells at a loss as they were a few years ago. Then the manufacturers will simply walk away as trains are just a branch of the business. The people who make our models are initially driven by enthusiasm but eventually have to turn that into a viable business.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 17:01, Matt said:

...Did I switch wholescale from Lima to Bachmann / Hornby over past 15 years - yes but in large this was due to better running characteristics as well as better shape to most locos.  Will there be a step change in performance to make this case again for me - I don't think there will as my current fleet can mostly handle the loads they're asked to pull...

From an operational perspective, ever since first obtaining an Athearn centre motor drive I have been happy with the smooth, quiet and ample traction; and combined with DCC this type of drive is as good as it needs to be to accurately represent prototype movement. Some extra mechanical refinement such as helical gears is attractive, but will only spring the money from my wallet if it is combined with a body shell that significantly better represents the prototype. Good choice by Accurascale of the Deltic...

 

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 02:48, wombatofludham said:

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the other announcements being touted for Warley from Heljan or Accurascale was a 31.  It's a type that can stand competition ...

Particularly if it accurately represented the exterior shape of the Brush type 2 (classes 30 and 31) which the Hornby model singularly fails to do. Hornby's best move would be to forestall competition by retooling the body shell so that it is an accurate shape. Slight sweetener: assembly cost reduction by eliminating the opening doors.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Such as a Peckett and 48ds we were assured were on the boat in December last year? My Peckett turned up last month and I'm still waiting for the 48DS.

 

This isn't a criticism of Hornby, delays happen, but if you want to comment, at least base the comments on what's really happening. It's all very well saying the Accurascale 37 is brilliant - have you seen one? No, because apart from a 3D print it doesn't exist. I'm sure when it appears, it will be brilliant but if you have cash in your pocket right now, you can't buy one.

 

A couple of years ago, DJM was touted as the great saviour who was going to blow away the established manufacturers because he was small and agile. What happened there?

 

Final point: No-one is making a fortune in model railways. Models cost what they cost I'm afraid. Prices could drop, to the level where each one sells at a loss as they were a few years ago. Then the manufacturers will simply walk away as trains are just a branch of the business. The people who make our models are initially driven by enthusiasm but eventually have to turn that into a viable business.

At the risk of upsetting an administrator, which I don't particularly want to do as I have a very high regard for the work they do in 'managing' the site,  Hornby announced 4 brand new coaches, the Collett Suburbans, just about a year ago, and my crimson liveries were in the shops in March, exactly as Hornby predicted.  We know that the Prairie was deferred as a result of aggressive competitive marketing of the Terrier, and Hornby were about as upfront and open about this as anyone can reasonably expect; they are entitled to their confidentiality!

 

Bachmann seem incapable of doing this.  I bang on relentlessly about the 94xx, but it is symptomatic of what I consider a serious issue of trust with this company.  I no longer believe without question any of their projected availability dates, though the presence of decorated samples of 94xx at Warley has reassured me that the thing will appear eventually.  My first awareness of it's 'impending release' was when I returned to the hobby in late 2016, 3 years ago and it was already a year down the line from announcement then.  No doubt the culture at Barwell is different to Margate, an announcement of intent to produce a model which is in the planning stage rather than announcing one that is already in an advanced stage of production but had been kept under wraps.  The 48DS is now in the shops so I'm not sure why you are still waiting for yours.

 

I have never commented about the Accurascale 37, which I am sure will be marvellous, and will cost what it costs.  I avoid complaining about prices, because I have little knowledge of how to make money by producing, assembling, and packaging models (or sub contracting that to be done), or of distributing, marketing, and selling them; I'm a modeller, not a businessman, and happy to leave that sort of thing to those who know what they are doing.  Similarly, I am reluctant to criticise their products for not being exactly as I want them so long as they are reasonably to scale and run well; I might have designed and built it differently (or 'better', as I call it) but I don't have to factor in volume production of parts that fit together in an assembly plant or are cheap to pack and transport, nor do I have to worry about using materials which have implications for shipping underwriters or insurance companies.

 

I absolutely agree that nobody is making a fortune out of model railways, and some are probably struggling to make a living.  I very much doubt that Simon Kohler is a millionaire, and if he is it's because of investments, not what he's made from hobbies.  I have stated on many occasions on this site that 'it costs what it costs', and that Chinese workers are as entitled to a decent standard of living as anyone.  The big boys are locked in to the Chinese production model because a decade ago (and several decades prior to that) it provided high quality models at low cost because of low Chinese labour, distribution (within that large country) and raw material costs.  They still produce very high quality models to any CAD we send them, but costs are rising over there, and here, and on the high seas, so prices are driven relentlessly up.

 

There is little point in them reverting to producing here, although it would give them better control of lead times and distribution (we are currently at the mercy of Somali pirates, amongst other things).  There would be no savings of overall costs, and a question mark over quality; hi fi RTR has never been made in 4mm in the UK, and we'd gib at the price if it was; we already raise our eyebrows at the price of some H0 RTR at the same time commenting on how realistic it is and how perfectly it runs

 

The people who make our models are either small family based outfits who have risked their homes and income on it, and have to make a living or quit just to survive, or they are bigger outfits who have to satisfy shareholders and investors or go out of business.  Bachmann have their American overlords to keep happy, and Hornby have their own fiduciary masters.  I am still amazed at the very low cost of retrofit and detailing items from the likes Dart, Springside, Cambridge Custom, Wizard, 24/7 and many others, mostly guys who are in the game for the love of it, but who have to make enough to at least cover costs, which are of course heading north faster than the Flying Scotsman.

 

 

[Blue Max]

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

At the risk of upsetting an administrator, which I don't particularly want to do as I have a very high regard for the work they do in 'managing' the site,  Hornby announced 4 brand new coaches, the Collett Suburbans, just about a year ago, and my crimson liveries were in the shops in March, exactly as Hornby predicted.  We know that the Prairie was deferred as a result of aggressive competitive marketing of the Terrier, and Hornby were about as upfront and open about this as anyone can reasonably expect; they are entitled to their confidentiality!

 

Bachmann seem incapable of doing this.  I bang on relentlessly about the 94xx, but it is symptomatic of what I consider a serious issue of trust with this company.  I no longer believe without question any of their projected availability dates, though the presence of decorated samples of 94xx at Warley has reassured me that the thing will appear eventually.  My first awareness of it's 'impending release' was when I returned to the hobby in late 2016, 3 years ago and it was already a year down the line from announcement then.  No doubt the culture at Barwell is different to Margate, an announcement of intent to produce a model which is in the planning stage rather than announcing one that is already in an advanced stage of production but had been kept under wraps.  The 48DS is now in the shops so I'm not sure why you are still waiting for yours.

 

I have never commented about the Accurascale 37, which I am sure will be marvellous, and will cost what it costs.  I avoid complaining about prices, because I have little knowledge of how to make money by producing, assembling, and packaging models (or sub contracting that to be done), or of distributing, marketing, and selling them; I'm a modeller, not a businessman, and happy to leave that sort of thing to those who know what they are doing.  Similarly, I am reluctant to criticise their products for not being exactly as I want them so long as they are reasonably to scale and run well; I might have designed and built it differently (or 'better', as I call it) but I don't have to factor in volume production of parts that fit together in an assembly plant or are cheap to pack and transport, nor do I have to worry about using materials which have implications for shipping underwriters or insurance companies.

 

I absolutely agree that nobody is making a fortune out of model railways, and some are probably struggling to make a living.  I very much doubt that Simon Kohler is a millionaire, and if he is it's because of investments, not what he's made from hobbies.  I have stated on many occasions on this site that 'it costs what it costs', and that Chinese workers are as entitled to a decent standard of living as anyone.  The big boys are locked in to the Chinese production model because a decade ago (and several decades prior to that) it provided high quality models at low cost because of low Chinese labour, distribution (within that large country) and raw material costs.  They still produce very high quality models to any CAD we send them, but costs are rising over there, and here, and on the high seas, so prices are driven relentlessly up.

 

There is little point in them reverting to producing here, although it would give them better control of lead times and distribution (we are currently at the mercy of Somali pirates, amongst other things).  There would be no savings of overall costs, and a question mark over quality; hi fi RTR has never been made in 4mm in the UK, and we'd gib at the price if it was; we already raise our eyebrows at the price of some H0 RTR at the same time commenting on how realistic it is and how perfectly it runs

 

The people who make our models are either small family based outfits who have risked their homes and income on it, and have to make a living or quit just to survive, or they are bigger outfits who have to satisfy shareholders and investors or go out of business.  Bachmann have their American overlords to keep happy, and Hornby have their own fiduciary masters.  I am still amazed at the very low cost of retrofit and detailing items from the likes Dart, Springside, Cambridge Custom, Wizard, 24/7 and many others, mostly guys who are in the game for the love of it, but who have to make enough to at least cover costs, which are of course heading north faster than the Flying Scotsman.

 

 

You say Bachmann have their ‘American Overlords’, if you are referring to Bachmann UK surely you mean their Chinese overlords?

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The 48DS is now in the shops so I'm not sure why you are still waiting for yours.

 

Because I don't want a green one and the others are still in transit - and it is a model I was told was on the boat in December.

 

My point was that it's easy to claim one manufacturer is "better" than the others if you ignore any issues with the others. Modellers on this site are very tribal. Some will accept any problem with red boxes but slate the same things for blue boxes and vice versa. Worse, they will laud people with little or no track record over those with established track records as we have seen on a couple of occasions in the last year.

 

Another point I've pondered in the pub is where all these layouts are of such high quality that a Bachmann Class 37 or Deltic is by far the worst thing on the baseboard. Even the early ones are better than many of the examples I've seen yet there is a clamour on social media for something even better as though a misplaced rainstrip (fixed on later issues) is the worst thing that could possibly happen in the posters life. If we could find these Pendon-beating models, we'd love to feature them in BRM!

[Andy Reichert]

21 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Another point I've pondered in the pub is where all these layouts are of such high quality that a Bachmann Class 37 or Deltic is by far the worst thing on the baseboard.

 

I have that problem every time I see a layout in the USA with that has track with no tie plates and scale spike heads.  That's just about all of them and the NMRA will actually award members a Master Model Railroader Title for mis-modelling it that way.  Using accurately modelled common crossings that you can't possibly hand make from bent rail will actually disqualify you. 

 

Andy

[The Johnster]

Fair enough, Phil.  I have no brand loyalty, and have been aware of 'that sort of thing' since I was a child and my cousin had 3-rail HD while my cheapskate dad bought me Triang.  By 1962 I reckoned my stuff was more realistic and ran better at very slow speed, but had to acknowledge that his locos ran more smoothly.  Other trumps for me were scale length coaches, reliable couplings and 2 rail track, for him it was separate handrails on locos and better valve gear.  I was in awe of the sewing machine precision of Hornby's Walchaerts on the early models, A4 and Duchess, but less impressed with the stamped versions on the 4MT, Castle, and 8F; still better than my Triang 3MT, though.  Utterly pointless and childish contest by utterly pointless childish children.

 

My current stock is mostly but not entirely Bachmann, overwhelmingly so for locos, but this is not a result of any brand loyalty or that I thing they are 'better' in any way than other makes (though there was a time when they had a significant lead over red box, reflected in price).  It is simply that I model South Wales 'Tondu Valleys' 1948-58, and Bachmann happen to produce a lot of locos and stock that are suitable for such a layout.  Hornby do the 42xx, A28/30 auto trailer, 20t toad, and not much else; their minerals have the wrong wheelbase.

 

Blue box do panniers (I have a Hornby 2721 but the old 8750 is not good enough for me!), 56xx, both types of small prairie, and Hawksworth trailer, along with proper wheelbase steel minerals and a good range of high quality general merchandise stuff.  Hence the desire for a 94xx, and I've got my eye on the Hornby large prairie.  The chances of my other requirements for Tondu shed at this period are very unlikely to ever be produced as RTR, a 44xx and a Collett 1938 31xx.  The 44xx used to be available as a K's whitemetal kit, but the 31xx is proper pie in the sky.  Both would have been unusual visitors to my branch anyway; they are associated with the Porthcawl branch.

 

I take your point about modelling standards.  Current RTR is far in excess of what most of us, myself included, can hope to ever achieve, but I can build a kit loco that runs better than RTR because of the gearing.  I build kits when no RTR is available, but there is nothing inherently superior about kits except the pleasure of making them and, arguably, haulage capacity, which doesn't really matter on my layout.  They don't save money or look better than current standard RTR.  I agree that the most realistic think on most layouts is the RTR stock and RTP buildings.  Running seems often to betray a basic lack of understanding of how railways work in practice, train formations are often unlikely or illegal (I've seen serious layouts where passenger trains do not have a brake vehicle), and industrial saddle tanks appear miles from the nearest supply of coal and water to work as station pilots.  There's Rule 1 and then there's Rule 1.

 

Oxford made a better Dean Goods than I could, and a better one than Airfix/Mainline/Hornby/whoever else has had a go at this tooling, but were roundly condemned here by modellers who were mostly completely unaware of the issues until somebody who knew a bit about what he was talking about pointed them out.  If I were in the market for a DG, I'd be happy enough with Ox's; after all I'm happy with a Hornby 2721 and a couple of what are basically Airfix auto trailers, plus some highly dubious coaching stock which will hopefully be replaced by Comets over time.  

Edited November 25, 2019 by The Johnster

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

...when I returned to the hobby in late 2016, 3 years ago ..

Timing is everything when it comes to forming perceptions! My 'return' was 20 years ago practically to the day, as I purchased Bachmann's newly released WD 2-8-0. At last, an OO RTR loco model of 'competent kit builder' standard. I didn't even have to wait as it went on sale near simultaneously with my parachuting in! As did a torrent of wagons and coaches and a steady stream of more locos over the ensuing decade, relevant to my modelling interest.

 

What with an ocean of Bachmann items on the rails, compared with a sea of kitbuilt, a bay of Hornby (it's a splendidly beautiful bay of gentle waves lapping golden sands, palm trees, etc.) and a couple of tidal inlets  of Heljan and Oxford Rail, you might guess to whom I am most grateful. And a ten year wait since announcement for the Dapol class 21 may soon be over. My Hornbach NBL type 2 DE will have to be recycled into something else...

 

[tomparryharry]

For a very long time, certain producers have regarded themselves 'as the only game in town', but business moves on. Delay is reasonable, but unrealistic delay is..... Well, you get the picture. The gaps that open up are viewed as opportunities. Some producers have moved damn fast to plug up the gaps. Others, feeling they are still 'the only game in town' might not be so fortunate. 

 

Good luck to them.  There's no amount of cajoling that will induce me to buy any type of model. In fact, the longer the gestation time, the less it will capture the public's  enthusiasm.  That little Hornby Peckett is a prime example. A very short period from announcement to retail. Result? Almost total clear-out in record time.  2nd & 3rd re-runs, and at top dollar, as well. 

 

Perhaps there is a lesson in this. It appears Dapol have taken a similar approach.

 

Cheers,

Ian.