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KR Models announce the Fell in OO and N.


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20 minutes ago, Ryde-on-time said:

Glad to see the update above, the announcement on World of Railways didn’t look quite right on my phone!

 

153416A9-20D4-4F62-BEC4-7ADF78BB114A.png.521cadb57b39263ce6ed833de2619941.png

 

I don't know, a shorty version for all those shunting planks might just work...

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These 2 photos were Reputedly taken on the same day by ER Morten - 5th September 1951

 

You’ll notice there are only 2 “adornments” over each cab but 1 pair are close together over the centre window but on the opposite end the pair are just to the outside of the centre window frames.
 

however the loco is 4-8-4 On the former and looks to be 4-4-4-4 On the latter.

 

This is probably a mistake on the dates but Morten was quite careful with his picture logs!

49843031-5B44-4B2B-9D50-1FA1F4B34A41.jpeg

A2DA4493-D987-43BD-9216-C23D58FCA2FE.jpeg

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39 minutes ago, Holmesfeldian said:

These 2 photos were Reputedly taken on the same day by ER Morten - 5th September 1951

 

You’ll notice there are only 2 “adornments” over each cab but 1 pair are close together over the centre window but on the opposite end the pair are just to the outside of the centre window frames.
 

however the loco is 4-8-4 On the former and looks to be 4-4-4-4 On the latter.

 

This is probably a mistake on the dates but Morten was quite careful with his picture logs!

49843031-5B44-4B2B-9D50-1FA1F4B34A41.jpeg

A2DA4493-D987-43BD-9216-C23D58FCA2FE.jpeg

 

.... and one image has the small nose-side grille, whereas the other has the large one.

 

Definitely a mistake in the log.

 

John Isherwood.

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Interesting variation in the cab roof vents but definitely not taken on the same day. At least this shows it running with numbers at the outer ends and at least one window (I think it's a window), still doesn't help to see which side we are looking at though. This loco on its own is more of a minefield than most large classes!

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It strikes me that whatever KR Models do, there will be somebody who cries foul. There will be either too many or too few grilles, windows, vents or coupling rods. Here's hoping that the shape and wheels will be good.

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6 hours ago, 96701 said:

It strikes me that whatever KR Models do, there will be somebody who cries foul. There will be either too many or too few grilles, windows, vents or coupling rods. Here's hoping that the shape and wheels will be good.


Just in case my posts are in the ‘cry foul’ category, I can honestly say that is not my intention. I appreciate that research is difficult on this machine and if asking questions gets a better (probably definitive as I can’t imagine anyone else will produce it!) then why not?

 

I have not ordered one, to be honest I’d really like to see the GT3 out first if I can, and then will order this.

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12 hours ago, 96701 said:

It strikes me that whatever KR Models do, there will be somebody who cries foul. There will be either too many or too few grilles, windows, vents or coupling rods. Here's hoping that the shape and wheels will be good.

It took Mike Edge about 4 years of research before turning it into a Judith Edge kit. Doing the same amount of research in less than 12 months is either

 

Very impressive   or

 

Cuts lots of corners

 

If you are going to do something like the Fell it takes time and money to get it correct. Looks like this RTR may be a nice to have but will be "not quite a Fell".

 

Baz

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32 minutes ago, Barry O said:

It took Mike Edge about 4 years of research before turning it into a Judith Edge kit. Doing the same amount of research in less than 12 months is either

 

Very impressive   or

 

Cuts lots of corners

 

If you are going to do something like the Fell it takes time and money to get it correct. Looks like this RTR may be a nice to have but will be "not quite a Fell".

 

Baz

You see? You've done it, How does anybody know it will be not quite a Fell, when nobody seems to know whether or not the sides and ends were symmetrical from photos that were or weren't taken on the same day?

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No, of course I didn't spend all of four years on it but it was extremely difficult (I spent a whole day at the NRM finding the drawings and they don't have alll of them) and I don't think I've got to the bottom of it yet -

to repeat for the umpteenth time, until it was painted green there's no way to tell which side or end you are looking at. There is a recent example above of two photos alleged to have been taken on the same day but clearly weren't and the much repeated myth of withdrawal after a fire which clearly took place when the loco was still black.

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Looks like the next Hornby offering may be the Triangle Winston Churchill. Sort of looks like a Bartle of Britain but not the rights shape or size...

Baz

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3 hours ago, 96701 said:

You see? You've done it, How does anybody know it will be not quite a Fell, when nobody seems to know whether or not the sides and ends were symmetrical from photos that were or weren't taken on the same day?

 

If anybody knows (almost) the full story, its Michael Edge.

 

If he says that it is impossible to know which side you're looking at whilst 10100 was painted black - that's good enough for me.

 

Since the loco's internal arrangements were symetrical, I can't think of a reason why the external fittings would be anything other than symetrical.

 

The test will be when the model is released - does it look like it does in the photos?

 

John Isherwood.

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Hmm,

 

I think it wise to make 1 version accurate, than 1 version pretending to be many.

 

commercially it would mean potential for other versions in the future off the same chassis.


But a bad one now would destroy credibility and confidence both on this one and future models... Hornby tried to make a combination of class 21 & 29.. it was ridiculed for decades as a toy.. though to be fair it was sold at toy prices.

 

in todays market Hornbys 87001 gets mixed reviews just because it has different nameplates on each side.
 

The work isnt necessarily wasted.. version 1 is a duplicate mirror of the first image... if there was a future version 2 then theres the 2nd image as a starting point..

Edited by adb968008
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Here's the thing though- the Fell was only ever one loco.  I really doubt that anyone else is going to try to make a OO model of the Fell, into the fairly distant future.  There is the Judith Edge kit for it, and then there will be the KR Models RTR version(s).  If it was me, I would be taking the approach of making it as accurate as practical for one of the two major periods (pre or post inside conrods), and then producing the alternate as close to right.  The body shell should be bang on, because...well, there was no major differences in size made.  The grill arrangements won't be 100% right for one arrangement- though with reasonable design work, they can be changed.  (costs money though...which might rule it out).  

Having a body shell which is as close to 100% accurate in major dimensions, and a mechanism that works, would mean that if you are desperate to model the other one, use a combination of the Judith Edge kit to build the body, and the KR models chassis,  or build the JE kit.  I think that for 90+% of us, a model which is fundamentally dimensionally accurate, and has identified detail changes that weren't done in the model, would still float.  This isn't like the class 47's, where the detail differences are on a hundred locos, that everyone "needs" to have.  This is detail differences that can be hard to spot (see Micheal's comment upthread), and very tricky to date/locate. 

If you follow Rapido, they have discussed similar with the PA2's, and what the problems are there.  I suspect there are more modelers interested in a Santa Fe PA2, than there are in UK modelers interested in the Fell.

Your mileage may vary.  Don't spend your money on it if you don't like it...

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13 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Hmm,

 

I think it wise to make 1 version accurate, than 1 version pretending to be many.

 

commercially it would mean potential for other versions in the future off the same chassis.


But a bad one now would destroy credibility and confidence both on this one and future models... Hornby tried to make a combination of class 21 & 29.. it was ridiculed for decades as a toy.. though to be fair it was sold at toy prices.

 

in todays market Hornbys 87001 gets mixed reviews just because it has different nameplates on each side.
 

The work isnt necessarily wasted.. version 1 is a duplicate mirror of the first image... if there was a future version 2 then theres the 2nd image as a starting point..

The manufacturer/commissioner of a model with a potentially limited market faces difficult choices when it is something like the Fell which - according to best information reflected in this thread - went through some substantial changes in appearance over a relatively short life.  Today's market has moved on a very long way from the mass market target of a Hornby Class 21/29 mixture, production runs are much smaller hence prices are in real terms much higher and a very large part of the market expects the higher price to accompany higher standards of fidelity and performance.   In many cases variations can be catered for using slides in tooling (extra expense) or a greater number of separate parts (extra assembly expense) which in turn affects the retail price but also helps to command/justify a higher.

 

The presumption must be that KR has done its market research and is satisfied their Fell will wash its face financially by finding a big enough market to justify the investment and return at the selling price they intend.  if that wasn't the case they wouldn't be making it or spending money on developing it.  As far as the market is concerned - and I suspect it is a relatively small one - I doubt most of those intending to purchase one will have seen little more of the original than a few photos and are probably interested solely because it is something different so might not be too concerned if it's in the wrong livery for the body detail.  That choice is down to the buyer.

 

But an important point centres around credibility of the 'manufacturer'.  If one thing they produce has visible inaccuracies could that affect the size of market for the next thing they announce?   Similarly if they don't get a mechanism spot on in performance terms on one model will that affect sales for future models?  Problems like that have as good as done for 'manufacturers' in the past and today's market is clearly more demanding plus there is the current Covid-19 situation which might potentially impact on sales as money becomes much tighter for many.   So, as has happened in the not too distant past, end customers can become more selective and 'careful' about how they spend their more limited supply of 'leisure purchase' money.  I reckon 'manufacturers' are definitely going to have to make sure that they really deliver the goods, in every way, in the near future in order to maintain or develop their share of a limited amount of hobby spending.  

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16 hours ago, peach james said:



Having a body shell which is as close to 100% accurate in major dimensions, and a mechanism that works, would mean that if you are desperate to model the other one, use a combination of the Judith Edge kit to build the body, and the KR models chassis,  or build the JE kit. 

You wouldnt need to,

 

buy two of these models, slice both exactly half way down the middle, swap the two sides between the models and glue them back together..

 

you’d have both an accurate before and after modifications Fell !!!


:-) 

 

maybe thats the sales strategy.. buy 2 and slice ? indeed maybe thats the tooling strategy just make half a body mould and stuck them together ?

 

To me, its simple.

 Make 1 good one, anyone can make a bad one, I dont need to spend £125? to do that.

 

It doesnt matter to me which version, as long as I feel ive got a quality model thats basically right... I got rid of my Dapol 150/2s decades ago... They too were heavily compromised, but they do make good EMU body shell materials.

Edited by adb968008
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I just hope that KR's modelling accuracy of the Fell is better than their management of the arrangements for paying for it. Once again I've received a payment advice which appears to be incorrect, or at best inconsistent with what they've already stated.

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16 minutes ago, Londoner said:

I just hope that KR's modelling accuracy of the Fell is better than their management of the arrangements for paying for it. Once again I've received a payment advice which appears to be incorrect, or at best inconsistent with what they've already stated.

 

Take it up directly with them; posting under a pseudonym on here isn't going to help them investigate it.

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On 12/06/2020 at 14:29, Londoner said:

The oracle has spoken.

 

 

Andy is right, though, isn’t he?  

 

Reminds me of the time when one one of my wife’s bank customers tried to get a print out of his balance from the ATM. Unfortunately the ATM ink had run out; the simple and obvious thing to do would be to walk ten paces into the bank and inform the staff direct, he could have had his balance immediately and the bank staff would have fixed the problem inside minutes. 

 

But no. He went home and wrote a letter about to the local paper. 

 

 

Edited by D9001
Typo
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3 hours ago, D9001 said:

Andy is right, though, isn’t he?  

 

Reminds me of the time when one one of my wife’s bank customers tried to get a print out of his balance from the ATM. Unfortunately the ATM ink had run out; the simple and obvious thing to do would be to walk ten paces into the bank and inform the staff direct, he could have had his balance immediately and the bank staff would have fixed the problem inside minutes. 

 

But no. He went home and wrote a letter about to the local paper. 

A common syndrome hereabouts, sadly. Andy is right, of course. Not just because he created this place with his own money rather more than a decade ago, so is entitled to express a view, but also because, I suspect, he gets bored, as do a number of us, with keyboard warriors trying to use RMweb as some sort of lever under a supplier's or manufacturer's stone, when in fact a direct approach would almost certainly yield a rapid and positive result. If the poster believes that KR are untrustworthy what on earth is he doing giving them cash?

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3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

trying to use RMweb as some sort of lever under a supplier's or manufacturer's stone

I'm not sure that @Londoner is using RMweb as a lever, or just a place to whinge. The end effect, both on RMweb and KRM, is the same.

 

Andy is quite right, issues like this should be taken up directly with the supplier in the first instance.

 

Personally, I've found KRM to be only obliging. 

Edited by truffy
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I'm pleased someone is making models that otherwise would not happen it gets all very same old same old. I would like a ready to run Fell way not or if the chance happened Bulleid's double Decker EMU or Bulleid's Leader. At the end of the day it's an hobby your layout. From what I have read on this thread people need to give KR Models a chance not compare them to closed down company. 

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