KR Models announce the Fell in OO and N.

[Barry O]

The green one needs a lot of mods to it.. starting with the coupling rods and crank colour...

 

 

[96701]

3 hours ago, Barry O said:

The green one needs a lot of mods to it.. starting with the coupling rods and crank colour...

 

 

Go on, then. What else is wrong? I assume that you are referring to the coupling rods not being needed between No 2 and No 3 cranks. Should the cranks be black? What else is wrong, and where is the evidence?

[Barry O]

5 hours ago, 96701 said:

Go on, then. What else is wrong? I assume that you are referring to the coupling rods not being needed between No 2 and No 3 cranks. Should the cranks be black? What else is wrong, and where is the evidence?

No point saying any more if you want a Fell and are prepared to buy something littered with mistakes.. off you go. KR never listen to any points made.. so why bother.. the evid3nce has been given before.. the Fell by the timebit was green had had numerous body shape variations. Just painting it Green means it is incorrect.. but that makes me a naysayer about the Fell which isn't a Fell. Buy a Judith Edge kit and build it to get the variations correct...

[rembrow]

Of course these being 'decoration samples' it's normal for the factory to use a composite of the models options in making the samples. It is to produce a paint and printed sample, not an accurate model to prototype, that comes at the next stage. Sorry if that ruins the fun!!!

Looking at these and the earlier plain undefeated running samples, there seem to be at least two body variations regarding the front grilles, with the latest showing 4 grilles per end and the earlier version having some blanked off. The earlier version also showed the 2+2 coupling rods fitted.

[SRman]

11 hours ago, Barry O said:

The green one needs a lot of mods to it.. starting with the coupling rods and crank colour...

 

 

Preproduction colour samples.

The primer grey example on their website shows the 4-4-4-4 wheel arrangement, appropriate to the loco in both later black and green liveries.

[Mike Harvey]

3 hours ago, Barry O said:

No point saying any more if you want a Fell and are prepared to buy something littered with mistakes.. off you go. KR never listen to any points made.. so why bother.. the evid3nce has been given before.. the Fell by the timebit was green had had numerous body shape variations. Just painting it Green means it is incorrect.. but that makes me a naysayer about the Fell which isn't a Fell. Buy a Judith Edge kit and build it to get the variations correct...

@Barry OI am not in the market for any 00 gauge trains or a KR Fell in any scale, but I love the way you litter your comments with "easy-to-correct" spelling and grammar errors. KR Models have produced a model with a composite set of features which could appear on the different versions of their Fell. Even experienced commentators seem to find that difficult to comprehend, and they fail also to understand that not everyone has their kit-building skill set.

[mikesndbs]

I am sure it will be wonderful, let's wait and see and give KR some credit

[ColinK]

Looks great to me, I’m looking forward to mine arriving - no rush though.

[The Stationmaster]

It might be down to the photography/lens used but the coupling rods do not appear to lie in a straight line - particularly on the black liveried version.  Hopefully we're not looking at a Chinese factory using their old favourite approach of gearing together axles using moulded components.

 

Incidentally as far as a livery sample - which these are, not EPs - it is of course quite common for the factory to assemble in an incorrect  mix of components from various different versions - nothing unusual in that.  However unless two separate moulds, or slides, are used  (the latter add considerably to cost) moulded detail will be common to all models whatever era they are portraying.  Thus moulded detail on the Fell body can't be right for all stages of its life or indeed correct for both the early black and the green liveries and some of the obviously moulded detail is incorrect for one version or the other.  However I seem to recall that a good while back KR said something to the effect that a common bodyshell would be used for all versions.

[Darius43]

Many years ago when I was much younger my Dad brought home some second hand Model Railway Constructor magazines for me that a work colleague had given him.  I remember them being in black and white and one layout in particular stood out, which I can still picture in my mind’s eye,  It was a club layout that featured a minic motorway with level crossings over the railway.    

 

The picture I remember is that of an 08 shunter hauling an SR parcels van over the level crossing whilst a London bus waits.  At the time I thought the layout was fantastic even though the 08 was the one on the Jinty chassis and the “scenery” comprised various buildings placed on the tables upon which the layout was set.  I still think that layout is fantastic.

 

By today’s standards the layout would be woefully inaccurate and the locomotives patently unprototypical.  I don’t recall anyone complaining about this at the time - then again I tended to only look at the pictures at the time and still do.

 

The reason for this reminiscing on this thread is what I see as tendency for people to suck the joy out of this hobby with an almost fanatical thirst for accuracy, which can never be achieved.  Is KR Models Fell accurate?  Having read this thread since it started, the answer is probably no.  Is it possible to make an accurate Fell?  Having read this thread since it started, the answer is probably no (unless you have a complete set of photos taken from all sides at the same time).  Am I getting one? Yes.  It will run on the layout in the company of Shinkansens and UP Challengers so perhaps accuracy is an alien concept.  Am I bothered?   Nooooooooooooo.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Darius43

[pheaton]

1 hour ago, Darius43 said:

Many years ago when I was much younger my Dad brought home some second hand Model Railway Constructor magazines for me that a work colleague had given him.  I remember them being in black and white and one layout in particular stood out, which I can still picture in my mind’s eye,  It was a club layout that featured a minic motorway with level crossings over the railway.    

 

The picture I remember is that of an 08 shunter hauling an SR parcels van over the level crossing whilst a London bus waits.  At the time I thought the layout was fantastic even though the 08 was the one on the Jinty chassis and the “scenery” comprised various buildings placed on the tables upon which the layout was set.  I still think that layout is fantastic.

 

By today’s standards the layout would be woefully inaccurate and the locomotives patently unprototypical.  I don’t recall anyone complaining about this at the time - then again I tended to only look at the pictures at the time and still do.

 

The reason for this reminiscing on this thread is what I see as tendency for people to suck the joy out of this hobby with an almost fanatical thirst for accuracy, which can never be achieved.  Is KR Models Fell accurate?  Having read this thread since it started, the answer is probably no.  Is it possible to make an accurate Fell?  Having read this thread since it started, the answer is probably no (unless you have a complete set of photos taken from all sides at the same time).  Am I getting one? Yes.  It will run on the layout in the company of Shinkansens and UP Challengers so perhaps accuracy is an alien concept.  Am I bothered?   Nooooooooooooo.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

 

Here here....you know what when I go to Warley (remember that) the layout I used to make a beeline for was the triang societies layout....one year it was massive....12 of those death-trap Meccano controllers in row and the shredding din of al the locos going round the layout....no scenery nothing just exactly as the manufacturer intended ready to plant buildings......I could watch it for hours....because there was nothing to judge it was exactly as the manufacturer intended....your imagination did the rest....nowadays it's almost like your life depends on it....So what.....I use set track or ready plant buildings....does that make me less of a modeller....I think the hobby these days seems to be too much about trying to impress others then having fun....

Edited June 29, 2021 by pheaton

[96701]

6 hours ago, Barry O said:

No point saying any more if you want a Fell and are prepared to buy something littered with mistakes.. off you go. KR never listen to any points made.. so why bother.. the evid3nce has been given before.. the Fell by the timebit was green had had numerous body shape variations. Just painting it Green means it is incorrect.. but that makes me a naysayer about the Fell which isn't a Fell. Buy a Judith Edge kit and build it to get the variations correct...

I have gone through this thread, and whilst people have noticed differences in grille positions, nobody seems to be quite sure which grilles were changed when. I am not aware that the body shape is wrong, nor am I saying that you are a naysayer. (Does that make me a naynaysayer?)

 

At the last York Show i spoke to a gentleman sitting behind the Judith Edge Kits stand I assume it was Mike) and told him which brass, nickel silver and whitemetal kits that I had successfully built and asked him if he thought I was ready to have a go at the Fell. He replied in the negative because of all the complex bending and folding that needed to be done, and I appreciate his honesty, so I have ordered the black version.

 

Is this version correct in your eyes? If not, please let me know what needs to be done, and I'll have a go.

Edited June 29, 2021 by 96701
tryping instead of typing.

[chris p bacon]

5 hours ago, rembrow said:

Of course these being 'decoration samples' it's normal for the factory to use a composite of the models options in making the samples. It is to produce a paint and printed sample, not an accurate model to prototype, that comes at the next stage. Sorry if that ruins the fun!!!

 

While that does happen, the painted sample shown is the one which KR are producing, it is not from any one time period but includes a mish mash of changes  which the locomotive did not have all of at any one time.

 

Quote

Looking at these and the earlier plain undefeated running samples, there seem to be at least two body variations regarding the front grilles, with the latest showing 4 grilles per end and the earlier version having some blanked off. The earlier version also showed the 2+2 coupling rods fitted.

There is only one body being produced ( from KR themselves) it's more likely photographs of either sides.

 

This is not a model I would purchase as I would prefer it to be accurate for at least one time period, so if I wanted one I would purchase the kit but I do appreciate I have the skill to build one.

 

When KR came to the hobby they set their stall out as a commisioner that would produce 'high quality & accurate models' and included the tag "We dare to build"  But as production of various models has proceeded that seems to have been dropped in favour of selling more product with fantasy liveries, under researched prototypes, poor QC etc, but if purchasers are happy with the product who is to criticise them for  wanting it. For the price that KR are asking, they could have easily produced as near as accurate  model for one time period. 

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by chris p bacon
typo

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, 96701 said:

I have gone through this thread, and whilst people have noticed differences in grille positions, nobody seems to be quite sure which grilles were changed when. I am not aware that the body shape is wrong, nor am I saying that you are a naysayer. (Does that make me a naynaysayer?)

 

At the last York Show i spoke to a gentleman sitting behind the Judith Edge Kits stand I assume it was Mike) and told him which brass, nickel silver and whitemetal kits that I had successfully built and asked him if he thought I was ready to have a go at the Fell. He replied in the negative because of all the complex bending and folding that needed to be done, and I appreciate his honesty, so I have ordered the black version.

 

Is this version correct in your eyes? If not, please let me know what needs to be done, and I'll have a go.

Yes, I remember that conversation. The Fell is probably the most difficult of all our kits to build and we prefer satisfied customers to frustrated ones, you will always get honest answers from us. I do try to make all the kits as easy to buid as I can without compromising too much on accuracy and detail. The Fell is an absolute minefield of alterations all through its life, I haven't fathomed all of them out yet but I'm sure it's not possible to produce an "all varieties" model.

To contradict Barry slightly the cranks were always red but the middle coupling rods didn't stay on very long - the middle axles were still connected by internal gearing though. As for the suggestions of "all angles and both sides", when 10100 was black it was impossible to tell which side was which.

Michael and Judith Edge

[ColinK]

9 hours ago, Darius43 said:

Many years ago when I was much younger my Dad brought home some second hand Model Railway Constructor magazines for me that a work colleague had given him.  I remember them being in black and white and one layout in particular stood out, which I can still picture in my mind’s eye,  It was a club layout that featured a minic motorway with level crossings over the railway.    

 

The picture I remember is that of an 08 shunter hauling an SR parcels van over the level crossing whilst a London bus waits.  At the time I thought the layout was fantastic even though the 08 was the one on the Jinty chassis and the “scenery” comprised various buildings placed on the tables upon which the layout was set.  I still think that layout is fantastic.

 

By today’s standards the layout would be woefully inaccurate and the locomotives patently unprototypical.  I don’t recall anyone complaining about this at the time - then again I tended to only look at the pictures at the time and still do.

 

The reason for this reminiscing on this thread is what I see as tendency for people to suck the joy out of this hobby with an almost fanatical thirst for accuracy, which can never be achieved.  Is KR Models Fell accurate?  Having read this thread since it started, the answer is probably no.  Is it possible to make an accurate Fell?  Having read this thread since it started, the answer is probably no (unless you have a complete set of photos taken from all sides at the same time).  Am I getting one? Yes.  It will run on the layout in the company of Shinkansens and UP Challengers so perhaps accuracy is an alien concept.  Am I bothered?   Nooooooooooooo.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

 

 

Superb post Darius - hobbies are supposed to be fun.

[Lillian_R]

As long as the general look/feel/style of the model is there - which it is - I...personally dont think it matters about if it has certain grilles on the body which/when and where for one year and not there the next or they were swapped and changed 5 years later its...still the general look and point of the model? As people have pointed out its inconsistently shown in photographs, technical manuals or the like with conflicting accounts and its just a general summarisation of what the engine 'is' and thats enough for me.

You can look at it and know what it is, what its supposed to be. It looks like what I want, which is the Fell, the numbers' right, the body shape is identifiable, the wheels are all there (and we know people can put on or take off the coupling rods I believe so thats fine) and as long as it works and I know what it is thats good enough for me.
It looks like a duck and it will (hopefully once I fix my controller) walk like a duck too.

I'm happy that such a weird, different and unique loco thats no longer with us is being represented and made. Hes gonna fit right at home in my engine shed

[mikesndbs]

The KR Fell will be without any doubt at all the very best R2R Fell loco ever made! Oh wait! 

 

KR will have done research, in fact I know they have and will give us a model that will look and feel like a Fell and no doubt for those that like new fangled dcc stuff, it will sound a bit like a Fell as well.

However, the purests need to keep in mind that we will be running it on our HO track, will be making it run with variable DC voltages and not diesel oil and (I know this is going to be hard to take so sit down) It will not come with a tiny live human crew to drive it either.

 

What will happen is we will delight in that ungainly looking locomotive that was a fantastic proof of concept and a creation the like of which we have not seen again, it will run with all 8 coupled or for those of us who want to 2X4 coupled. It will be a remarkable model.

Will it be 100% accurate for every date that the real thing existed? nope, but then who can tell as there is not too much to go on.

 

I honestly can't wait for mine.

[Les1952]

I'm just waiting for the chorus on RMWeb saying "DHP1 never looked like that", mostly from people who until a few years ago weren't even aware it existed.....

 

A couple of years ago I was sold by Hatton's secondhand dept a Dapol A3 which was described as a cheap non-runner.  When it arrived I realised I'd bought the BR livery sample- there was no motor and no gearbox or pickups, and no evidence that there had ever been such. As I'd bought it for the spares it couldn't give up I sent it back, but later wished I hadn't. 

 

What is this to do with the Fell livery sample photos?  I would be very surprised if either of those has a mechanism inside, and they will be a composite of the available "outside" parts with just enough innards to make sure they don't fall apart.  Are they a representation of what parts will be on which model?  No, and they are not supposed to be.   Their purpose is to show whether the colours are right and whether lining and lettering is in the right place, nothing more.

 

In the meantime I'm looking forward to my sound-fitted one- it will be interesting and entertaining to run.

 

Les

 

[chris p bacon]

 

Quote

Are they a representation of what parts will be on which model?  No, and they are not supposed to be

 exactly where is that written as fact?

The reality is that it is easier for the factory to assemble what should be assembled, rather than what shouldn't.

[Graham_Muz]

10 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

 exactly where is that written as fact?

The reality is that it is easier for the factory to assemble what should be assembled, rather than what shouldn't.

 

This will actually vary from model to model depending on the complexity, number of body variations and or how the detail changes affect the livery application.

Bearing in mind that often the parts for the decorated samples would be a very limited run and reducing the number of tooling changes on the machines saves both time and costs.

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

 exactly where is that written as fact?

The reality is that it is easier for the factory to assemble what should be assembled, rather than what shouldn't.

Especially as earlier photos show that the body in fact has very few separate parts - all the grills, which varied over time, are moulded for example.    With livery samples sometimes few separate parts would make much difference and of course the livery sample is what it says it is - it's to check that the factory have got the application of livery correct or to identify what needs to be corrected.

 

But again in this case it won't make much difference because we already know that most of the important detail is moulded as part of the body shell and that there is only one version of that so any mention of incorrect separate parts is more or less superfluous in this particular. case.   If somebody is happy to pay 2020s prices for a 1970s 'impressionistic' model which is all things to all purchasers them fair enough -it's their money.  

 

And - as noted above - many folk are quite happy to go along with that sort of model or model railway and if it gives them enjoyment who is to argue because that is their choice.   Personally I would expect a correctly detailed, or as near correctly detailed as can be reasonably manufactured in 4mm scale,  for 150 quid in today's market especially if it doesn't have awkward, expensive to assemble, things like outside valvegear or numerous separate body detail parts but that is my expectation.   And for only £20 more there are individually detailed versions, with many separate parts, Accurascale Class 37 on the way - a lot more for not much more money.  But again it is the buyer's choice.

[rembrow]

If I remember correctly, the factory producing the Kernow Bulleid diesel, showed the decorated samples of 10201 or 10202 with connecting doors, a variant not yet made available by Kernow, as fitted for double heading on the WCML. 

It is common for the UK commissioner to advise, when showing decorated samples, that the body style may not match with the livery, to avoid viewers raising concerns.

[adb968008]

For most people I suspect its a rtr fell at normal retail prices.

For many achieving nirvana of a Fell is out of reach.

 

Whilst its a model produced to a cost, and its longer term interest is probably limited, it makes sense to make the minimum viable product, its just a shame that minimum doesn't look to be an accurate one for at least one specific period.

 

Sadly I doubt it will harm sales, but equally i’d doubt theres a long term potential in reruns in this model anyway.

 

it is what it is, the alternative is very limited options, be grateful we have it, Fell was a butt of jokes for years.

 

Looking forwards, as KR is increasingly becoming retail, the need to pre-pay to make the tooling happen is less incentivising, especially if the second runs fixes faults of the first.

Edited June 30, 2021 by adb968008

[friscopete]

Never mind all this weird British rubbish .What about the shay ?

[adb968008]

18 minutes ago, friscopete said:

Never mind all this weird British rubbish .What about the shay ?

Meanwhile back to the Fell…

 

there is hope

 

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/kr-models-completes-design-of-fell-diesel-model/

 

theres two different configurations in this cad drawing…