KR Models announce the Fell in OO and N.

[Barry O]

1 hour ago, Ouroborus said:

 

You missed off Realtrack models as well for wanting payment up front.  If you want a 142, you're paying for it (i did).   As for Accurascale, if you want an 89, you're paying for that up front too. (Ditto). Which makes we wonder why bring up this model of commissioning models if its common across smaller manufacturers/manufacturers of obscure classes.

 

I'm guessing Santa didn't pay a visit to CJI

Erm.. Charlie paid up front for his first dmus (and the amount was eye watering!).. You could pre order them but as they were a popular item it made sense to do it. Each unit was checked before posting out. I think the changes are more to do with the supply chain  changes than Charley trying to pull a fast one.....

 

The current KRM model is at development and delivery at no risk to KR at all.. and looking at the list of Common Faults for the Fell it looks like their model is you pay for it , we deliver it but we don't care how good/bad/indifferent it is.

 

Baz

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Ouroborus said:

 

You missed off Realtrack models as well for wanting payment up front.  If you want a 142, you're paying for it (i did).   As for Accurascale, if you want an 89, you're paying for that up front too. (Ditto). Which makes we wonder why bring up this model of commissioning models if its common across smaller manufacturers/manufacturers of obscure classes.

 

I'm guessing Santa didn't pay a visit to CJI

Like JJB I do not like the idea of paying upfront taking the view that if a somebody diesn't have sufficient faith in what they are doing to actually fund it then why should I take the financial risk on their behalf?   I broke my own rule with some Accurascale wagons but by then the company was a fully know quantity in the products it was offering and in any case you could see most of what you would be getting before they even advertised for orders. Compared to that KR, in some respects like DJM before it, has been wish-list land with little or no idea of what you'll get when you start to pay for it.  And their track record is not exactly good - the GT3 came with relative minor, but downright stupid, errors (they aren't alone in one of those areas of error as it happens); the Consett hopper relied on RMweb members to turn it into something decent, while on one side the Fell is a disaster area visually reflecting some very obvious shortcomings in the research and development stages along with, it turns out, a number of mechanical reliability problems which are down to either poor design and/or assembly faults.    

 

On the other hand 'Bellerophon' looks pretty good but we are being told that it has working valvegear when anyone can plainly see from a video of it in motion that it very obviously hasn't got working valvegear.  Then we come to the early information on 'Big Bertha' to find that yet again there are some basic errors showing up in the CAD with not even the number of safety valves being correct.  And while it might be me there are some things about the 4DD that stilldon't look right although I will admit that it is a long time since I last saw one in traffic.

 

If folk want payment upfront they need a track record that inspires confidence.  That's difficult with the first model but that model should do two things - firstly inspire that confidence and secondly begin to form the financial foundation for moving on to a business model where the 'manufacturer' carries the risk, not the end customer.  If you don't have the faith to finance your own models up to at least EP stage (or possibly a good 3-D print but with tooling already underway) why should I finance your company for you (without the benefit of sharing the profits)?

[jjb1970]

To pay up-front does indeed require a high degree of trust and confidence. 

Looking at the market currently, I have such confidence in Accurascale, Rapido, SLW, Revolution and Realtrack. I am not saying I would do so, because I am not interested in crowdfunding, but I do have the necessary confidence in those suppliers. Cavalex looks promising too. Going beyond these companies I have a high degree of confidence in Bachmann but not enough to pay up front on trust. Then Hornby, Heljan and Dapol drop down another notch, I really wouldn't pay up front for their wares because aside from my reluctance to pay up front I am not sure what they'd end up delivering.

The thing is, most of those companies do not require up front payment. They self fund development, either using their own money or finance. They may ask for a deposit, but I am prepared to pay a small deposit to a company I trust. Others don't require any up-front payment. 

 

[Ouroborus]

3 hours ago, McC said:

For clarity you can secure an 89 with a small deposit as with all of our models. You do not need to pay up front. 

 

 

Thanks for this.  I don"t have a problem  with paying up front, I can appreciate that development costs can be massive and with no guarantee on returns on the future.  If we want something, tome to put our money where our mouth is.

 

Buy for clarity, when i have an 89 in the basket, i can either pay all in one (with you) or pay a deposit/spread the payments with a company call  "partial.ly".  Is this still Accurascale or a third party like Klarna?

Edited December 26, 2022 by Ouroborus

[McC]

9 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

 

Thanks for this.  I don"t have a problem  with paying up front, I can appreciate that development costs can be massive and with no guarantee on returns on the future.  If we want something, tome to put our money where our mouth is.

 

Buy for clarity, when i have an 89 in the basket, i can either pay all in one (with you) or pay a deposit/spread the payments with a company call  "partial.ly".  Is this still Accurascale or a third party like Klarna?

Partially is an app not a credit service. We receive payments as they are made and don’t get paid in full until all payments are made. As such it’s ideal for preorders as the customer is in full control via the partially app 

[Ouroborus]

33 minutes ago, McC said:

Partially is an app not a credit service. We receive payments as they are made and don’t get paid in full until all payments are made. As such it’s ideal for preorders as the customer is in full control via the partially app 

 

Thanks for this.  From what i can see though, Partial.ly is a payment service used by retailers.  As with Klarna, use of Partial.ly means Section 75 protection for credit card purchases ceases since there is no longer a direct link between the customer and retailer.    Issues with QC, failed delivery etc all go Partial.ly's dispute process rather than being handled by a bank.

[McC]

19 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

Thanks for this.  From what i can see though, Partial.ly is a payment service used by retailers.  As with Klarna, use of Partial.ly means Section 75 protection for credit card purchases ceases since there is no longer a direct link between the customer and retailer.    Issues with QC, failed delivery etc all go Partial.ly's dispute process rather than being handled by a bank.

As I said Partially is not a payment processor or credit service so unlike klarna or Clearpay or PayPal it doesn’t process payments on our behalf. When you make a payment  using the app it’s processed by us directly (via Stripe) and you retain full legal protection. 

Edited December 26, 2022 by McC

[Roy Langridge]

On 26/12/2022 at 13:57, jjb1970 said:

To pay up-front does indeed require a high degree of trust and confidence. 

Looking at the market currently, I have such confidence in Accurascale, Rapido, SLW, Revolution and Realtrack.

 

Not sure SLW should be in that list as they do not ask for pre-payment and Phil is against that business model. 
 

Roy

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

Not sure SLW should be in that list as they do not ask for pre-payment and Phil is against that business model. 
 

Roy

 

I agree, which is a point made in the final part of my post.

 

My intent was to highlight that there are some companies who I have sufficient confidence in to accept that when they announce a model it will be done extremely well, they will produce an accurate, well detailed and high quality product. I still wouldn't pay in full up-front, but the reason is nothing to do with a lack of confidence in the product such companies will produce, it is because I don't like that concept. Most of the companies I have such confidence in do not require customers to do so (though some offer an option if people want to, I have no objection to companies offering that as an option).

 

Then there are other companies for which my refusal to get involved in crowdfunding or paying in-full in advance is not only about my feelings on that business model but also because they do not have my confidence in terms of what they produce. Not only do I not like the business model but I have no idea what they might make and the chances of getting a lemon or something I would not want are much too high.

 

For all companies like Heljan, Hornby and Dapol have produce things which haven't been especially impressive, but it's not such a big deal as we have the choice to see what we're getting before deciding whether or not to buy. In the case of Dapol and Heljan it can be especially infuriating as often the models are either fundamentally extremely well done but let down by QC and silly avoidable errors such as the first release of the Dapol 73, or have aspects which are quite superb in an overall disappointing product, such as the first Heljan 86 release. But again, I was able to make an informed decision about both of those models, if I'd paid in-full on trust and recieved them I would not have been happy.

[Darius43]

On 25/12/2022 at 23:55, GWR-fan said:

Jenny,

             no personal disrespect intended,  however

This phrase reminds me of a comedienne who played a South African shopping channel host (or something like that) who always prefixed condescending/insulting comments with “no disrespect but…”

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited January 3, 2023 by Darius43

[big jim]

Arrabella weir on the fast show….

 

‘No offence’

 

 

[DavidH]

On 03/01/2023 at 03:43, FranksLad said:

And happily representing them on their stand at Warley and Milton Keynes, and doing marketing videos on your YouTube channel which no doubt does zero harm to either party. Come on, it’s a bit more than being a van driver, let’s be honest 😉

 

A more accurate description would possibly be, "I'm not an employee of ..."?

As a freelance, doing one-off but varied and obviously ongoing work (taking payment or goods for creating social media videos is still "work"?), @Jenny Emily have you obtained professional indemnity insurance in the (hopefully very remote) instance that the relationship with KR Models sours?

(I can think of a couple of nightmare scenarios where you'd not necessarily have to fall out with them: some of your repairs have to be redone, causing them to pursue costs; or worse, a van incident where they sue you for loss of/damage to goods, etc.)

[Colin_McLeod]

4 hours ago, DavidH said:

or worse, a van incident where they sue you for loss of/damage to goods, etc.)

 

That's what comprehensive motor insurance is for.

 

[Jenny Emily]

Lots of ill-informed speculation going on in this thread. I’ll type it again for the self-appointed experts to take Note of:

 

I’m not employed by KR Models. 
 

We seem to have too many members of the following on here:
 

[Darius43]

I was just thinking the same - the MAGA element of RMWeb appears to be thriving on this thread.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Oldddudders]

I am a bit puzzled about all this. There are a number of RMwebbers who quietly work with manufacturers and suppliers, adding value or authenticity somewhere. The terms and conditions of their relationship are unknown to most of us, and why would we care? Why JE should be subject to accusations that those other people are not is unclear - but the fact that the model in this thread seems to have had a number of faults in design and/or manufacture obviously has something to do with it.

 

Are people looking for some sort of scapegoat? Are all those poking JE with sharp sticks disgruntled owners seeking redress? Baffled. 

[The Stationmaster]

59 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I am a bit puzzled about all this. There are a number of RMwebbers who quietly work with manufacturers and suppliers, adding value or authenticity somewhere. The terms and conditions of their relationship are unknown to most of us, and why would we care? Why JE should be subject to accusations that those other people are not is unclear - but the fact that the model in this thread seems to have had a number of faults in design and/or manufacture obviously has something to do with it.

 

Are people looking for some sort of scapegoat? Are all those poking JE with sharp sticks disgruntled owners seeking redress? Baffled. 

Quite agree Ian although I'm sure that Jenny could hardly be regarded as any sort of scapegoat for the Fell.  

 

And I know that she has in the past worked on a video of a new model launch for another brand as I sat and watched her when she was involved in the filming of it at the launch event (which was ' by invitation' only - so I obviously also had an invitation to be there as did another member of RMweb).

[Bernard Lamb]

3 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

Lots of ill-informed speculation going on in this thread. I’ll type it again for the self-appointed experts to take Note of:

 

I’m not employed by KR Models. 
 

We seem to have too many members of the following on here:
 

 

That might have given you more "brownie points" if you had included the word 'directly' after 'I'm not'.

I worked for several well known companies but was never an employee of them. A subtle difference that you do not want to recognize. I will not write any more as jonhall has covered it very well.

Bernard

 

 

[Phil Parker]

And all of this relates to the Fell how?

 

If you want to discuss the independence of online reviews, this would be better in a separate thread. However, care would be needed to avoid an Internet pile-on on any individual. 

[Phil Parker]

OK. I asked that the thread go back to the Fell and if people want to talk about the independence of reviews, this moves to a new thread. Since the topic relates to ALL products, it makes sense to take it out of any single manufacturer. 

 

Of course, several people ignored this, so as I can't be bothered to sit on this thread to supervise it all night, I'll lock it for the moment.