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KR Models announce the Fell in OO and N.


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  • RMweb Gold
5 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I'm waiting for a different livery application on either side ..:rolleyes:

I'm sure that won't be the first time that somebody has done that.

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  • RMweb Gold
22 hours ago, adb968008 said:

For most people I suspect its a rtr fell at normal retail prices.

For many achieving nirvana of a Fell is out of reach.

 

Whilst its a model produced to a cost, and its longer term interest is probably limited, it makes sense to make the minimum viable product, its just a shame that minimum doesn't look to be an accurate one for at least one specific period.

 

Sadly I doubt it will harm sales, but equally i’d doubt theres a long term potential in reruns in this model anyway.

 

it is what it is, the alternative is very limited options, be grateful we have it, Fell was a butt of jokes for years.

 

Looking forwards, as KR is increasingly becoming retail, the need to pre-pay to make the tooling happen is less incentivising, especially if the second runs fixes faults of the first.

The tooling might not be costing them anything in advance anyway depending on the factory they are using because there are still factories in China who back end load the money part of their contracts in order to secure business.  While DJM's failure no doubt put off some of them because they were left with CAD costs, or more, on their hands I understand there are still factories out there who work that way.  I suspect that most of those would nowadays probably start to draw payments at the tooling stage but some might wait until the production stage when they will require payment for all work to date before starting production.  In any event if they only require payment before tooling starts that will be quite a way down the road into the project as research, design and CAD work would not have been paid for by then.

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  • RMweb Gold
On 30/06/2021 at 10:48, The Stationmaster said:

If somebody is happy to pay 2020s prices for a 1970s 'impressionistic' model which is all things to all purchasers them fair enough -it's their money.  

 

I think you are overlooking that it is not a 1970s mechanism and far from ''impressionistic".  Minor, debatable, detail errors does not make a model 'impressionistic'

 

The current trend of super accurate models with all possible variations of a class throughout it's lifetime is all very well for those to whom it matters, but in reality how many are so intimately familiar with the prototype that they can tell without research.

 

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37 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

I think you are overlooking that it is not a 1970s mechanism and far from ''impressionistic".  Minor, debatable, detail errors does not make a model 'impressionistic'

 

The current trend of super accurate models with all possible variations of a class throughout it's lifetime is all very well for those to whom it matters, but in reality how many are so intimately familiar with the prototype that they can tell without research.

 

Each to their own of course and 1970s mechanisms on British putline models were in a different league from those on some US outline models.  And depending on our ages some of us can be very familiar with some prototypes and hence expect to see what we remember (not that that applies to the Fell in my case but it would certainly apply to 18000 for example and even more so to, say, a 78XX). 

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  • RMweb Gold
On 30/06/2021 at 10:48, The Stationmaster said:

And - as noted above - many folk are quite happy to go along with that sort of model or model railway and if it gives them enjoyment who is to argue because that is their choice.   Personally I would expect a correctly detailed, or as near correctly detailed as can be reasonably manufactured in 4mm scale,  for 150 quid in today's market especially if it doesn't have awkward, expensive to assemble, things like outside valvegear or numerous separate body detail parts but that is my expectation.   And for only £20 more there are individually detailed versions, with many separate parts, Accurascale Class 37 on the way - a lot more for not much more money.  But again it is the buyer's choice.

 

But I am sure that the 37 will sell more than the Fell many times over, making the additional tooling cost justifiable.


Roy

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1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

But I am sure that the 37 will sell more than the Fell many times over, making the additional tooling cost justifiable.


Roy

I doubt there'd be much difference in the tooling cost but there will be a considerable difference in assembly costs due to the higher number of separately fitted parts on the Class 37s and therefore the cost of making each individual model.  And of course there will have been also a major difference in research and design costs with those for the Class 37 being much higher because of the intention on that manufacturer's part to accurately reflect the detail changes over the years.

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I doubt there'd be much difference in the tooling cost but there will be a considerable difference in assembly costs due to the higher number of separately fitted parts on the Class 37s and therefore the cost of making each individual model.  And of course there will have been also a major difference in research and design costs with those for the Class 37 being much higher because of the intention on that manufacturer's part to accurately reflect the detail changes over the years.

 

Yes, but the point I was making is that I can well imagine that the Class 37 is likely to sell by several 100 x more than the Fell, with those costs being distributed across a very much higher number of model sales.


Whatever the fascination is with the Fell, it is a niche model, the class 37 is a mainstream loco with a, so far, 61 year operating life.


Roy

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33 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Yes, but the point I was making is that I can well imagine that the Class 37 is likely to sell by several 100 x more than the Fell, with those costs being distributed across a very much higher number of model sales.


Whatever the fascination is with the Fell, it is a niche model, the class 37 is a mainstream loco with a, so far, 61 year operating life.


Roy

Good point - obviously the Fell would be made in far smaller numbers than the 37 but overall the tooling is much simpler and i doubt there are any slides in the tools which add considerably to the cost for , often, relatively limited numbers of models.  The big killer nowadays seems to be assembly costs because that is where Chinese wage rises have hit hardest and research and design costs in western countries are undoubtedly far more expensive than they are in China.  Horse for courses will always come into it of course.

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16 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Yes, but the point I was making is that I can well imagine that the Class 37 is likely to sell by several 100 x more than the Fell, with those costs being distributed across a very much higher number of model sales.


Whatever the fascination is with the Fell, it is a niche model, the class 37 is a mainstream loco with a, so far, 61 year operating life.


Roy

 

The Fell will sell to people like me- who wouldn't even look at buying a Class 37.  There may be more of us idiots around than you think- enough to make it viable.  

 

A mainstream manufacturer wouldn't look at most of the things KR Models are covering.  Hush-Hush is an icon that may well have surprised Hornby by its success- but would it push them into doing a P1 for instsnce- and LNER steam is more thieir "thing"...  

 

Any Class 37 has to compete with all of the (other) mainstream manufacturers wanting a slice.  The Fell doesn't

 

Les

Edited by Les1952
afterthought and typos
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It will sell to people who just want one..no matter how many things are incorrect about it. So the loco could have had more research on it and a bit more on the model itself .. and more people who wanted a Fell would have bought it as well.

 

Wonder what would happen if another manufacturer put up a competitor?

Edited by Barry O
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1 hour ago, Les1952 said:

 

The Fell will sell to people like me- who wouldn't even look at buying a Class 37.  There may be more of us idiots around than you think- enough to make it viable.  

 

A mainstream manufacturer wouldn't look at most of the things KR Models are covering.  Hush-Hush is an icon that may well have surprised Hornby by its success- but would it push them into doing a P1 for instsnce- and LNER steam is more thieir "thing"...  

 

Any Class 37 has to compete with all of the (other) mainstream manufacturers wanting a slice.  The Fell doesn't

 

Les

Hornby have a thing about large East Coast passenger engines and have gradually got round to most of them although whether they'll ever do the original A2 seems unlikely.  But they never seem to have done well with East Coast freight power so I would think a P1 is unlikely.

 

The problem with 'not quite right' models in niche market areas is that it truly spoils the pitch for anybody else due to the level of investment needed.  With the mess that was made of the Olivia's EM1 it will be an awful long time, if ever, before we see an accurate one.  And - albeit with other changes such as ever more appearing as well - their EM1 was the thing that tipped the balance with me and finally put me off buying less than accurate 'like to have/fun train' models.  Good thing I suppose is that it made me concentrate far more on what was relevant to the time/era I model although I still buy a few 'oddballs' buy only if they are what I regard as accurate enough and do the job.

But we're all different and the fact that we are probably does good for some parts of the market as long as folk have money to spend on model railways.

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7 hours ago, Barry O said:

It will sell to people who just want one..no matter how many things are incorrect about it. So the loco could have has more research on it and a bit more on the model itself .. and more people who wanted a Fell would have bought it as well.

 

Eonder what would happen if another manufacturer put up a competitor?

 

If that manufacturer reads RMWeb I would think there is little or no chance of that happening.....

 

Les

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9 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The problem with 'not quite right' models in niche market areas is that it truly spoils the pitch for anybody else due to the level of investment needed.  With the mess that was made of the Olivia's EM1 it will be an awful long time, if ever, before we see an accurate one.  And - albeit with other changes such as ever more appearing as well - their EM1 was the thing that tipped the balance with me and finally put me off buying less than accurate 'like to have/fun train' models.  Good thing I suppose is that it made me concentrate far more on what was relevant to the time/era I model although I still buy a few 'oddballs' buy only if they are what I regard as accurate enough and do the job.

But we're all different and the fact that we are probably does good for some parts of the market as long as folk have money to spend on model railways.

 

The rivet counters that are complaining that the proposed Fell model lacks detail nuances appropriate to the liveries on offer rather amuse me. 

I never saw the real thing and even if it is not 100% authentic it will be perfectly at home on a Peak District based layout - because it looks like a Fell and a bloody good job KRM are doing if they get the mechanicals spot on, even if people wish to deploy rule 1 and add the extra connecting rods to their black machine despite an inappropriate number of roof vents or whatever!

I wonder how many people decrying it's detail inaccuracies would - if presented with nirvana - just slap tension locks or kadees on it anyway :-)

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13 hours ago, Barry O said:

Eonder what would happen if another manufacturer put up a competitor?

 

As said by Stationmaster, the Fell is a unique enough model that there won't be another RTR version for a long while (if ever) - recouping the development costs would be close to impossible.

 

 

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On 10/07/2021 at 21:38, Holmesfeldian said:

 

The rivet counters that are complaining that the proposed Fell model lacks detail nuances appropriate to the liveries on offer rather amuse me. 

I never saw the real thing and even if it is not 100% authentic it will be perfectly at home on a Peak District based layout - because it looks like a Fell and a bloody good job KRM are doing if they get the mechanicals spot on, even if people wish to deploy rule 1 and add the extra connecting rods to their black machine despite an inappropriate number of roof vents or whatever!

I wonder how many people decrying it's detail inaccuracies would - if presented with nirvana - just slap tension locks or kadees on it anyway :-)

We have an accurate Green liveried one on our Club layout ( a model of Chapel-en-le-Frith (Central)) and also an accurate Black liveried one.. both from very well researched Judith Edge kits. Neither have tension locks or kadees fitted.. just like the real thing.....

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22 hours ago, Barry O said:

We have an accurate Green liveried one on our Club layout ( a model of Chapel-en-le-Frith (Central)) and also an accurate Black liveried one.. both from very well researched Judith Edge kits. Neither have tension loocks or kadees fitted.. just likecthecreal thing.....

 

And if they are 16.5mm gauge and 4mm scale they still have bigger errors than any others a manufacturer will make......  I'm sure the prototype wasn't 4 foot 3 ins gauge.

 

Just a thought.

 

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Yes les .. correct but we could convert them to S4 if we had our layout in S4.  But the body, the livery etc on our models is correct (as is the shape and size) the green liveried one shows how little research these guys have done.. and there are no photos of themodel sides from above or below.. when given a full data pack for GT3 they got the bogie the wrong way around and they showed how little understanding of the loco they had with the lighting fitted.  

 

Please buy it.. its like buying a Playcraft NBL Bo Bo rather than a Dapol onr ..

 

Baz

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  • RMweb Gold
9 hours ago, Les1952 said:

I'm sure the prototype wasn't 4 foot 3 ins gauge.

 

Nor even 4 foot one and a half inches.  If you are going for the silly gauge jibe, do the maths and get it right.

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  • RMweb Gold
5 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Nor even 4 foot one and a half inches.  If you are going for the silly gauge jibe, do the maths and get it right.

 

Thank you for narrowing it down.

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To be honest, there are contributors to this thread that, like the GT3 thread before it, just wish to denigrate everything that KR Models do in regard to this or seemingly any prototype. They have no interest in purchasing this model of the Fell, but seem hell bent to point out to anyone that does just how foolish they are for buying this rtr model of a very unusual prototype and bask in the fact that you could be like them and build an absolutely totally accurate model from an etched brass kit.

Fine, that is what they did, but contributing nothing positive to this thread does not enhance their reputation, rather it it diminishes it in my view. You have no horse in this race, you are no longer going to alter the model, please just leave the thread to those who are looking forward to the model, and use this thread as a way of monitoring it's progress through until delivery on the doorstep.

Thank you in advance,

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

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59 minutes ago, 45568 said:

To be honest, there are contributors to this thread that, like the GT3 thread before it, just wish to denigrate everything that KR Models do in regard to this or seemingly any prototype.

Thank you in advance,

Cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

I tend to agree. I am often surprised that those criticising the accuracy of somebody else's work choose not to be bothered to spell check their criticism. Whilst I might admire their modelling capabilities, these commentators seem to apply the same standards to their posts as the ones they are criticising in the commissioners' work. Their hackneyed  opinions carry little genuine weight.

 

 

Edited by Mike Harvey
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27 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

I tend to agree. I am often surprised that those criticising the accuracy of somebody else's work choose not to be bothered to spell check their criticism. Whilst I might admire their modelling capabilities, these commentators seem to apply the same standards to their posts as the ones they are criticising in the commissioners' work. Their hackneyed  opinions carry little genuine weight.

 

 

So my typing is not of the best.. but did you even bother to read what it said?  

 

Baz

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19 minutes ago, Barry O said:

So my typing is not of the best.. but did you even bother to read what it said?  

 

Baz

Of course I read what you typed right to the end when the quality control went awry. You are a skilled and competent modeller but your "reactions" on this topic speak for themselves. Take the trouble to read and check what you type and your criticism will carry more weight with me. Otherwise it is as sloppy as you seem to think KR Models are.

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  • RMweb Gold

From what I have learned (or am lead to believe) it is impossible to produce an accurate model of the Fell - no matter how skilled you are at kit/scratch building/painting one.

 

The evidence is simply not there!

 

It is, I concede, true that using one tool to produce two versions of the same loco (from differing time periods) will result in one model being less accurate than the other.

 

 

Personally, regarding the EPs / Livery samples. I was concerned that the motion "looked sloppy" and that the overall loco did not look "ugly enough" !!! - But I hope this merely to be constrictive criticism / feedback.

 

 

Kev.

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