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GSWR68

What motor for this 4-6-0?

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Hi all,

I bought this locomotive a few years ago as I want to make a static replica of a specific loco. Is it possible to say what make it is and also what motor should I use as I actually want to use it on a layout. Thanks.

 

Paul

IMG_20191122_202754.jpg

IMG_20191122_202715.jpg

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Could well be the K's whitemetal GWR Grange. I presume it would come with a K's motor. There's a couple on ebay at the moment with a 3 figure asking price. One is shown with the K's Mk. 1 motor.

Edited by NCB

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As NCB says, looks like a Grange. If your pennies allowed it, I would look around for a secondhand Hornby Grange, very good model. If not, would an Anchoridge motor do the job for your white metal beast?

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K’s were usually built with Romford wheels, axles, and gears; that looks like a 40:1 cog, which would be the most suitable for this loco.  If you can’t source a K’s motor a Romford Bulldog is probably the best bet.  It’s been nicely made up by the look of the photos, and the natural patina of age has weathered it for you.  

 

 

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Thanks for the help guys. Here is a better photo. Also, if this is a Grange, would it be inaccurate if modelled as a Manor. Basically, I want to replicate Lydham Manor in BR black as she is now. If this would look wrong, I will refurbish it as a Grange. 

DSC_0001.jpg

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Two steps backwards before considering motor options. (Ignore if this is teaching granny to suck eggs.)

 

Assemble it as it stands and push around the layout making sure that all the smallest radius curves on which you want it to run may be traversed without derailment.

 

Then repeat the layout traverse observing an ohmmeter across the rails to ensure that there is never a short circuit.

 

If it fails either or both, then rectify in detail before proceeding. The extensive whittling visible inside the spashers on what is conventionally the insulated side suggest that shorting may be a problem. Bogie wheels around the cylinder castings too, very prone to shorts on curves.

 

Unfortunately I don't believe any XO4 pattern motor will fit (MW005, Bulldog, etc.) because the bulky cuboid of the magnet end will be pushing its upper corners through the tapered boiler. I would suggest replacement of the direct worm drive arrangement with a fold up two or more stage gearbox driven by a small diameter can for the significant gain in running refinement (which will make proper use of the model's weight).

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8 hours ago, GSWR68 said:

Thanks for the help guys. Here is a better photo. Also, if this is a Grange, would it be inaccurate if modelled as a Manor. Basically, I want to replicate Lydham Manor in BR black as she is now. If this would look wrong, I will refurbish it as a Grange. 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/DSC_0001.jpg.410b43c79d54efae6e541afe11451591.jpg

In a word "No" - it isn't really possible to pass off a Grange as a Manor.  Whilst the chassis are similar the Grange has the much bigger No.1 boiler than the Manor's No.10.  It wasn't a bad model in its day and well worth fitting with a modern motor.  Even 30 yrs ago K's motors were getting long in the tooth so I wouldn't dream of fitting one these days. BTW if you are going to do your Grange in B.R. condition (lined black to c.1957 then lined green) it would be worth checking which ones still had the 3500 gal. tender as in your photo.  As time went on most of them were fitted with the taller 4000gal. tender. Hope this helps.

Ray.

Edited by Marshall5
Additional info.

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Looking at the wheels, it's not that clear but seems to me that they are attached with screws, in which case they are the later K's wheels. They fitted a D shaped extension from the axle with a threaded hole for the screw in the end, the wheels having a corresponding D shaped hole. K's kits included their own wheels, originally brass centred ready mounted on their axles, later plastic centred as you may have here. If the wheels are attached with a nut, they're Romfords. If they're K's. treat them with care if you take them off then put them back on, to avoid damaging the holes in the wheels.

 

If you're thinking about a Manor I'd suggested getting hold of a plan of a Manor and a Grange, and seeing how close the boiler is.

 

I'm a bit puzzled by the thing the motor is supposed to be mounted on. If you want to use the existing gear, you'll need to find a matching worm.

 

Edited by NCB

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it looks like a K's 70's edition with the pre quartered wheels that fit into a keyhole frame. The frames have been modified as the original K's was designed to drive on the centre wheel with the K's motor fitting into a casting which a large whole to clear the brush mount. This one has been cut and had a brass plate added with positioning to take a Triang X04/MW005 or ECM. It should look like this.

76170291_grangeksframes11_19.jpg.58f84c1c315608fb08d0e033551acb24.jpg

 

As for replacing with a Hornby...It depends if your are for or against K's kits. I am well known to be a defender of K's. Here is my 6843 Poulton Grange, named so after the farm that Sandpiper on here used to work. My engines have long trains and a hill. The Hornby one came and went as it could not pull this trains. A bit of effort, adding detail, brakes etc and the \K's are fine.

629922819_6843atwork.jpg.76ac8d0d944cda46df7d6dcb76899005.jpg

Mike Wiltshire

 

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Nice layout, Mike. I'm with you on K's. They could make into very decent models. I have a battered 44XX prairie somewhere which was a bit too lively, not sure if it was the motor or me. Also have a K's Milestone Metropolitan 4-4-0 which is destined for the Cambrian version, when I can get around to finishing it. Also a bit lively but i have ideas for sorting that.

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There's been a good bit of discussion on the site about Manors and the possibility of using Hornby Manor chassis for them, and the stumbling block is that, while the front end of the chassis is very similar, the Manor frames are significantly shorter at the back end.  In addition to this the Grange smokebox, no.1 standard boiler, and firebox are identical to the Hall (also the Saint and 28xx), and much too big for the Manor.  The consensus seems to be that it is probably better to power a Mainline/Bachmann Manor with the mech from a 43xx or large Prairie, but the 43xx suffers the same problems as the Manor chassis it replaces and a problem with both 43xx and Manor is that the old Mainline toolings have the firebox too wide and the wrong shape in order to accommodate the pancake motor.  The new Hornby or Dapol large prairie chassis may be a better bet, but most folk seem to be waiting for an announcement for a new tooling Manor. 

 

They've been waiting for a very long time and this loco consistently features in polls and wishlists, so it's bound to happen sooner or later.  My advice FWIW is to keep your Grange as a Grange, and if you can't get the chassis running power it with a Hornby Grange chassis.  The weight of the K's bodyshell should give very good haulage.

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It looks like the chassis would take the K's Mk 2 motor, the gear wheel looks like K's . It has been engineered or re engineered to have the motor forward driving the rear axle,  It looks a very good solution f you can put up with a typical K's bulge in the cab floor over the worm as it can take a flywheel. 

The K's Mk 1 and Mk2 have a double ended armature shaft , so will take a flywheel.  the one above has one shaft  hacked off,

They have a lower profile than the MW005 and X04 so can be mounted to drive the rear axle without fouling the taper on the boiler.  Obviously the Triang Hornby chassis has the motor driving the front axle so the top of the motor is in the raised firebox.. The same Triang chassis runs the other way round in Flying Scotsman.

The Manor was quite different to the Grange, They had the same chassis but the rear end was 1ft shorter on the Manor so the cab is further over the rear driving wheel.  The Manor Boiler was shorter but had a sloping throat plate like later Black 5s, Jubilees etc, and like them it was no improvement over the originals, but it does allow the shoulders of the belpaire boiler to be further forward over the middle driving wheel. The boiler was also smaller diameter than the Grange, 

The standard K's Grange body needs some work, the cab side windows and cab cut away are under scale and can easily be improved with a sharp knife, new smokebox door would be good, even a Triang Hall one is better, but when built with a Mk2 motor and flywheel should run as sweetly as a new Hornby Grange and actually pull trains.  Generally you should get at least twice the tractive effort from the K's Grange as from the Hornby one,   24 wagons against 12, or 8 coaches against 4.    Well worth completing this model.

Edited by DavidCBroad
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The chassis were the Achilles heal of their kits and rather than improving over the years many comment on them getting worse.

 

The potential problems are

1 Warped chassis frames

2 Wobbly wheels

3 Poor motor with equally bad meshing of the gears

 

The first question is how freely does the chassis run?  Quite a lot of modellers changed the wheelsets to Romford (now Markits) This can be quite expensive unless the wheels are sourced on the second hand marked 

 

You need a new motor, K'S mK 1 & 2 motors do come up quite regularly,  (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Keyser-Ks-Mk-1-12-v-Motor-Brand-New-Sealed-Packaging-Not-Tested/283682641904?hash=item420ccd97f0:g:ejQAAOSwoSld1XZx) keep away from the newer HP2M motors they are trouble. The Airfix "Slimline" should also fit. Then you have the issue of trying to get a decent meshing of the gears as well as mounting the motor into the chassis. The builder seems to have modified the chassis to fit a wider motor

 

If the chassis is free running I would opt for a decent modern motor with a good gearbox, running qualities would be far better

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