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Locomotive photo`s Pre-Grouping through to BR

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On 13/12/2019 at 10:23, 62613 said:

No. 122 is surely in Midland days?

 

In LMS days (as already answered). Strictly speaking, it is on No.4 Engine Shed rather than the works.

 

2 hours ago, 88C said:

Thanks for posting these wonderful photos.

 

141 would certainly draw some comments if you tried that combination at an exhibition.

 

Brian

 

I don't suppose it was very often that a garratt carried a Class 'A' headcode.

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23 minutes ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

I don't suppose it was very often that a garratt carried a Class 'A' headcode.

Now, the LMS Garratt's were based on a pair of 2-6-4T chassis ( without the 4 ) and the only currently operable LMS 2-6-4T ( albeit with bigger wheels ) is capable of running at over 80mph, i wonder what speed 4999 could have achieved ?

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Photo 135 shows, I believe, the director's saloon for touring the works.

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13 hours ago, JeffP said:

Photo 135 shows, I believe, the director's saloon for touring the works.

There were several of these Crewe cabs, intended to ferry men and materials around the works. LNWR Society has a number of photos

https://lnwrs.zenfolio.com/p597172030

Two were specially prepared in 1913 for a visit from the King. These can be seen on the LNWR website, with rather more upholstery than normally provided.

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LMS5011nearTamworth.jpg.ac1e3482a2bb3d938eeecd47f99efb6e.jpg

143) LMS no. 5011 near Tamworth. No date.

 

LMS5248atHolyhead.jpg.71b071876d6a280ba0ba9a6133532e11.jpg

144) LMS no. 5248 at Holyhead. No date.

 

1136010195_LMS5295betweenPrestonLancaster.jpg.ea2cece67dc8bc180fd59cc3072947b2.jpg

145) LMS no. 5295 between Preston & Lancaster. No date

 

LMS5343.jpg.711bf0b773762cdd13c639a4eb7d4806.jpg

146) LMS no. 5343. No details.

 

LMS5358.jpg.14ad439c8ab014beb0d0cf09b9cc25ab.jpg

147) LMS no. 5358. No details.

 

LMS5404.jpg.f7d548d0c289c8117bc722d0d3f98236.jpg

148) LMS no. 5404. No details.

 

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On 12/12/2019 at 10:12, Wickham Green said:

2P or not 2P ? .............. interesting selection of coaching stock among that lot : is that a Lanky 'Club' saloon in 114 ? - what's it doing near Derby ?

 

113-118) No. 402 is a 483 Class superheater rebuild of a Johnson 4-4-0 - the antecedents of the LMS Standard 2P (7'0" drivers rather than 6'9" but the flared Johnson tender rather than dtraight-sided LMS Standard tender is the easiest clue apart from the number). Many of these engines were given larger round-topped boilers (H boilers) in Edwardian days - No. 442 is in this condition - whilst some got Belpaire boilers, as No. 338, before getting the full 483 Class rebuild. No. 489 is another 483 Class rebuild, that has aquired an LMS Standard tender, while No. 654 is an LMS Standard 2P.

Edited by Compound2632
Corrected identification of No. 338's condition.
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Lots of fascinating photos here and lots of Great Western ones too!

 

(Not necessarily mutually exclusive sets.)

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On 23/11/2019 at 09:37, RRU said:

Some photos that have come into my possession.

 

Feel free to add any extra info you may have on any of them.

 

Peter

 

1741564365_GlasgowSWRy710atTurnberry.jpg.e07c2412431b61e8ab0457d292048880.jpg

1) G&SWR no. 710 at Turnberry

 

 

There was a general renumbering of G&SWR engines in 1919; I suspect makes this photo very late pre-Grouping but fascinating non the less; I've seen very few photos of ordinary G&SWR passenger trains - as opposed to the many shots of the "Pullman" with Midland-style M&GSW joint stock clerestory carriages. No. 710 is a member of Hugh Smellie's 119 Class built at Kilmarnock 1882-5; I'm not fully au fait with the class history but I think it's sporting a Manson or Drummond boiler - the original boilers were domeless with the safety valves amidships.

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On 23/11/2019 at 10:09, RRU said:

 

 

GreatEasternRy1870atCambridge.jpg.63f483d7e12894022433c2d71962e4e0.jpg

12) GER no. 1870 at Cambridge

12) Note the Booth & Mitchell wagon on the right. Compare:

 

1469567073_DY2801PeterboroughWisbechSidings.jpg.8cf30bd1b2d199ccc6d4f59b3adae6da.jpg

 

NRM DY 2801, Peterborough Wisbech Sidings, 1905, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

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Looks almost model like

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1 minute ago, JeffP said:

Looks almost model like

Only if you have a bank balance sourced from the music industry!

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On 07/12/2019 at 09:39, RRU said:

Locomotives from all parts of the LMS.

 

First, the single wheelers.

 

MidlandRy25atPancras1887.jpg.57ceb666fff7f24e1604cb4d4b3f327e.jpg

89) MR 25 at St. Pancras 1887

 

MidlandRy179.jpg.de19694abf9c1ce7e36380406cd8f816.jpg

90) MR 179. No details

 

MidlandRy2601atLondonStPancras9-2-01.jpg.523ba3b87b67f7eebd62573b69cbd9f3.jpg

91) MR 2601 at St. Pancras. No date

 

 

 

 

89) No. 25 was the very first of the first batch of Johnson's singles, completed in June 1887 and allocated to Kentish Town. The shelter is for taking cylinder pressure indicator diagrams, I assume. Some junior from the Locomotive Drawing Office is having an exciting day out! However, since the photo dates from no earlier than 1892 (see below), this isn't testing of a new design. I wonder if it has to do with design work for the piston-valve singles of the 179 Class, built in 1893? (The 25 and 1853 Classes, built 1887-1893, had slide valves.)

 

The carriages are typical of a front-rank Midland express of the early 1890s, before the move to the classic clerestory carriages. I think the leading carriage is a 40 ft brake composite of Lot 69 as modified to correspond to diagram D528. The twelve-wheeler is a 54 ft composite of Lot 110, D507, built in 1886. The third compartment has been converted to a pair of lavatories. This was done in 1892, so the photo cannot be from 1887. By the early 90s, five of the Pullman cars were running as dining cars, as, I think, seen here.

 

90) The location is one at which Great Western carriages could be found alongside Midland singles. No. 179, first of the above-mentioned piston-valve singles, went new to Nottingham; other class members were new to Derby, Bristol, and Kentish Town. I suspect the location is somewhere west of Birmingham - as well as the main Bristol line, it could be Worcester. The lamp irons are in the pre-Feb 1903 positions and the lamps are in the positions for the pre-1903 express passenger train headcode.

 

91) This is an oft-reproduced photo - usually rather sharper! No. 2601 Princess of Wales, one of only two Midland locomotives to carry names and first of the 260! Class, the last of the bogie singles, was completed in December 1899 and is seen here evidently brand new at St. Pancras. (Before Feb 1903, at any rate.)

 

Note the circle rather than stripe on the signal arm - a characteristic feature of Midland signals at this time, though also used by some other lines at the time. Distant arms were distinguished by the usual fish-tail cut-out and a horizontal black stripe on the back, but still the white circle on red on the front.

 

References:

 

S. Summeron, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 3 (Irwell Press, 2002)

R.E. Lacy and G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986)

Edited by Compound2632
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On 08/12/2019 at 12:46, RRU said:

 

MidlandRy565atHerneHill1905.jpg.f8c0806426a561f3cfa854821db8a1e0.jpg

100) SE&CR liveried former LC &DR A Class 0-4-4T No. 565 built by Neilson & Company in 1875. At Herne Hill.

 

 

On 08/12/2019 at 22:06, Davey said:

If I may, photo number 100 does not show a Midland Railway locomotive, but a SE&CR liveried former LC &DR A Class 0-4-4T No. 565 built by Neilson & Company in 1875.

 

Davey

 

Not a Midland engine but it is a Midland train - as the board on the engine's bunker says. The Midland had a service of trains between Kentish Town and Herne Hill via the Metropolitan Railway widened lines, providing a cross-London connection for passengers between the Midlands and Kent. From 1909, there were through carriages from Manchester and Bradford and Dover and Deal, alternating Midland and S&CR bogie composites - there's a discussion on this here:

The carriages in this photo are indeed arc-roof ones that would fit through the Widened Lines - I believe all three are 45 ft luggage composites of Lot 79, 30 built in 1883, of which ten (including the three seen here) were converted to brake composites in 1890 with one compartment becoming a pair of lavatories and a droplight being added to the LH on the luggage - now brake - compartment doors.

 

The curious thing is the SECR locomotive - it's a condensing type, so can run on the Met; that and the board on the bunker suggest it is working the train, rather than just shunting. I would have assumed that this service would be worked by a Midland condensing 0-4-4T of the 1532 Class.

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3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Not a Midland engine but it is a Midland train - as the board on the engine's bunker says. The Midland had a service of trains between Kentish Town and Herne Hill via the Metropolitan Railway widened lines, providing a cross-London connection for passengers between the Midlands and Kent. From 1909, there were through carriages from Manchester and Bradford and Dover and Deal, alternating Midland and S&CR bogie composites - there's a discussion on this here:

The carriages in this photo are indeed arc-roof ones that would fit through the Widened Lines - I believe all three are 45 ft luggage composites of Lot 79, 30 built in 1883, of which ten (including the three seen here) were converted to brake composites in 1890 with one compartment becoming a pair of lavatories and a droplight being added to the LH on the luggage - now brake - compartment doors.

 

The curious thing is the SECR locomotive - it's a condensing type, so can run on the Met; that and the board on the bunker suggest it is working the train, rather than just shunting. I would have assumed that this service would be worked by a Midland condensing 0-4-4T of the 1532 Class.

Perhaps the board refers to the destination rather than who is working the train?   Engines from south of the river worked through services to the northern lines via the Widened Lines so maybe the board is to distinguish the train from a service through to the GNR?

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3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Perhaps the board refers to the destination rather than who is working the train?   Engines from south of the river worked through services to the northern lines via the Widened Lines so maybe the board is to distinguish the train from a service through to the GNR?

 

Yes, although I think both. A Midland train in that it is working to a Midland destination and is composed of Midland stock. 

 

Possibly there was some turn-and-turn-about agreement to share the motive power.

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On 05/12/2019 at 09:10, RRU said:

GWR6014.jpg.62d5f3f72fdb4ef4f58b68ead6f59554.jpg

81) No. 6014 "King Henry VII". No details

I think we can see where they got the inspiration for the "streamlining":

 

img_1107.jpg

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On 09/12/2019 at 09:23, RRU said:

 

MidlandRy346nearNormanton.jpg.8f66443234f108f9ab0085ffd7de0676.jpg

104) MR no. 346 near Normanton.

 

MidlandRy465nearCotehill.jpg.9192a27722934bb59ce06e9a93af6eb9.jpg

105) MR no. 465 near Cotehill

 

MidlandRy2036nearBirmingham.jpg.764b70b76e445648fd1e0b3126c840a8.jpg

106) MR 2036 near Birmingham.

 

 

104) Vantastic! 1st, 3rd, 7th, and 9th are Midland D530 6-wheel clerestory passenger brake vans of 1896-1902. I'll have to revisit this with a magnifying glass later...

 

105) First two vehicles are eithe M&NB or M&GSW joint stock (depending on whether the train is from Edinburgh or Glasgow) 50 ft corridor vehicles - passenger brake van D567 and third D564 - while the third is Midland - a 48 ft corridor dining carriage (no kitchen), either all first D442 or composite D445 - I can't make my mind up which.

 

106) A W.L. Good photo, crisper version here. The carriages are one of the 48 ft close-coupled sets built 1907/8 for Birmingham suburban services, the prototypes of the well-known Ratio kits.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

104) Vantastic! 1st, 3rd, 7th, and 9th are Midland D530 6-wheel clerestory passenger brake vans of 1896-1902. I'll have to revisit this with a magnifying glass later...

 

105) First two vehicles are eithe M&NB or M&GSW joint stock (depending on whether the train is from Edinburgh or Glasgow) 50 ft corridor vehicles - passenger brake van D567 and third D564 - while the third is Midland - a 48 ft corridor dining carriage (no kitchen), either all first D442 or composite D445 - I can't make my mind up which.

 

106) A W.L. Good photo, crisper version here. The carriages are one of the 48 ft close-coupled sets built 1907/8 for Birmingham suburban services, the prototypes of the well-known Ratio kits.

 

Thank you for your comprehensive replies.

 

Peter

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On 13/12/2019 at 10:23, 62613 said:

 

No. 122 is surely in Midland days?

 

 

Midland Compound No. 1028 clearly sports the LMS totem on its cabside. The photo looks to have been rather heavily touched up. 

 

I wonder if this is a version of a Derby official. The Derby Registers lists DY 14014 of 25 June 1926, "Engine 1028 on turntable at Derby, being turned".

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On 06/12/2019 at 10:52, RRU said:

 

440479340_GWR-SaintClass4-6-0atExeterStDavids1923.jpg.8acbd5224c3c1aeb2cb81b18cb86b339.jpg

86) A "Saint" at Exeter St. Davids 1923

 

GWR-SteamLocomotiveAtSwindon.jpg.8614a741db0d67fc59149887552a457e.jpg

87) A "Castle" at Swindon. No more details

 

Finally, no list of GWR locos is complete without a broad gauge one

GWR-TimourAtTeignmouth5-1891.jpg.8968fe2df2b3ea17cd45874c35def31c.jpg

88) "Timour" at Teignmouth 5-1891

 

 

86) The second carriage is ex-LNWR, I think a 57 ft corridor 4-compartment third brake in the "cove" roof style, diagram D313, 12 built 1906-7. The third carriage looks to be an LMS standard vestibuled (i.e. open) carriage, whether first or third I can't tell; these didn't start being built in quantity unitil a year or two after the grouping, this and the LMS livery of the ex-LNWR carriage suggest to me that the 1923 date is wrong. I'm no great shakes on Great Western carriages but they only started to revert from claret to chocolate & cream in 1923 and I believe this one is in the simplified livery style adopted in 1927?

 

87) In the platform at the left, an ex-Great Northern / East Coast Joint Stock clerestory carriage; I suspect the elliptical-roofed carriage in front of it may also be of pre-Grouping east coast origin - it doesn't quite have the conventional LNER look. I'm wondering if it is one of the ECJS vehicles built by the North Eastern? What are they doing at Swindon in the late 20s? On the right, an old 4-wheeler freshly painted in the 1927 style.

 

You see, even post-Grouping Great Western photos can be interesting, if one looks for the details in the corners!

 

88) That has a rather artistic fuzziness to it - I have a feeling I've seen a sharper print somewhere!

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On 30/11/2019 at 09:39, RRU said:

 

 

GWR3204nearComminsCoch7-18-38.jpg.479189e793a43f9500d2155a02d6e33c.jpg

54) No. 3204 near Commins Coch 19-7-38

The train engine is not recorded.

 

On 30/11/2019 at 13:04, 62613 said:

 

3rd carriage LNER and 4th LMS in the last photo?

 

 

The third carriage is another ex-LNWR vehicle, again seen from the corridor side which aids identification. It's in the "toplight" style introduced in 1912. I think it may be a corridor composite to diagram D135, 51 built in 1913-14 to the odd length of 52'6". The fourth carriage is an LMS Period 3 corridor brake third, most likely to diagram D1905, built in quantity from 1934 onwards.

 

References for the last two posts:

D. Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages (2e, Pendragon, 1995)

R.J. Essery and D. Jenkinson, The LMS Coach 1923-1957 (Ian Allan, 1969)

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On 08/12/2019 at 12:46, RRU said:

 

LNWR1304.jpg.a7a2361353f592e90944ae4b29da504d.jpg

97) LNWR Teutonic class no. 1304. No details

 

LNWR-PrecedentClass2-4-0nearTamworth.jpg.73cf18442434b5ade509a1228c73d399.jpg

98) LNWR Precedent class near Tamworth. No more details.

 

 97) Jeanie Deans is past her glory years of single-handedly working the 2 o'clock "Corridor" between Euston and Crewe here, alas. The piston tail-rods have been cut back and the front framing cut back, a modification carried out from 1896 [E. Talbot, An Illustrated History of LNWR Engines (OPC, 1985)].

 

98) At first glance there's nothing 20th century about this train but the "feel" of the photo suggests post-Great War to me - I think the Improved Precedent is unlined and the non-brake carriages have had their lower stepboards removed. I believe that at either end of the train we see 50 ft corridor brake thirds to D317; these were conversions from centre-brake second/third composites to D316 built 1898-1903, the two second class compartments and lavatory being replaced by an enlarged guard/luggage compartment. The date of this conversion isn't given by Jenkinson but I wonder if it was at the time of the abolition of second class in 1912. The second carriage is a 42 ft centre-luggage third to D293 - probably one of the 22 built in 1893 for Liverpool-Leeds trains. I think the third carriage is also a 42 ft non-corridor type. I see a bit of blank space between the widows of the leading compartments, suggesting a composite, so I'm stuck for a final identification! If it's not a composite, there's no first class accommodation in the train, which seems improbable.

 

Refs:

 

D. Jenkinson, op. cit.

P.A. Millard and I. Tattersall, L&NWR Non-Corridor Carriages (L&NWR Society, 2006).

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Five claughtons, both small and large boilers.

LMS5903nearTarnworth.jpg.a019b6c946a69995f7d7c113610d5768.jpg

149) LMS no. 5903 near Tarnworth. No date.

 

LMS5984atDuffield.jpg.4fd1a11f5558c81563cdb9d20722c664.jpg

150) LMS no. 5984 at Duffield. No date.

 

LMS6004atDillicarTroughs1946.jpg.2fdd7450267513b4a7edff309cd11dbe.jpg

151) LMS no. 6004 at Dillicar Troughs 1946

 

LMS6017atHeadstoneLane1938.jpg.19a5ca19a7914ce0aee5d1c53173975b.jpg

152) LMS no. 6017 at Headstone Lane 1938

 

1927201771_LMS-ClaughtonClass4-6-0nearBreadsallCrossingMid1930s.jpg.78de023f1ea71aedc10b6f83a17e0509.jpg

153) LMS Claughton near Breadsall Crossing. Mid 1930's

 

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That is a remarkable photo of the last Claughton on Dillicar Troughs in 1946.

It survived until 1949 in BR days, by which time I was at school in NW Derbyshire. A good many of the male teachers were rail mad and the English teacher brought along a eulogy about the passing of the last Claughton in the Manchester Guardian.  After his explanation about the engine,  we were set to analyse the passage in tabular format in our exercise books. 

To my juvenile mind, the Claughton with its long irregular slotted side skirts above the drivers, had a scrappy unfinished look. It was as if a Decoration had been stripped off as punishment for being a damp squib of a finale to a long line of thrashed black Crewe runners.

dh

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