How early did English Electric Type 3s make it to Scotland?

[rogerzilla]

Would a green one be "correct" for an early 60s layout, or didn't they go north until they were blue Class 37s?  I know the green split headcode ones were allocated to northern England when first built.

[Wellyboots]

According to the the allocation list on BRdatabase the first allocations to Scottish depots were in 1966, although they may well have been trialled in Scotland when first introduced.

[MidlandRed]

Apart from D6959-D6968 (ER locos), all of D6819-6999 and D6600-6608 started life on the WR. However quite a lot of the earlier WR batch got reallocated to the ER, NER and ScR quite early on. 

 

From BR database D6837-59; 6903-05; 19, 36, 37 were transferred to the ScR - the earliest group (6837-59 in Aug/Sept 66), the remainder 1967-70. So all centre headcode locos and D6837-59 almost certainly green syp. I saw one of the D690x batch in Scotland which was also green. 

 

The Autumn 1966 date coincides with transfer of a batch of class 116 dmus (50818 etc  - see the class 116 thread) to Scotland and a also batch of new class 25s (D7611-23). This period was when a concerted effort to reduce steam occurred in Scotland, possibly some class 21 side lining also. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by MidlandRed
Date correction

[rogerzilla]

Thanks both, that's very useful.  I want to build a "green diesel" N gauge layout based on a fictitious far north terminus, a bit like Kyle of Lochalsh, but not on the coast.  Either a posh hotel or a distillery.

 

Have a green 37 syp, a green 26 syp and a green 03 as station pilot (they got everywhere, didn't they?). 

[pH]

The first day I saw EE Type 3s in Scotland was 23 August 1966, and I saw 6 on that day. Here's one sneaking into a photograph of a far more worthwhile subject  at Dunfermline shed on that day:

 

 

(Edit - spelling)

Edited November 23, 2019 by pH

[Broadway Clive]

42 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

 

Have a green 37 syp, a green 26 syp and a green 03 as station pilot (they got everywhere, didn't they?).  

There weren't any class 03 shunters in Scotland at that time as they had plenty of Barclays and North British types

[MidlandRed]

36 minutes ago, Broadway Clive said:

There weren't any class 03 shunters in Scotland at that time as they had plenty of Barclays and North British types

 

Also Hunslet 05s (D2574-85 from new - D2596/97/08/17/18 - reallocated from elsewhere)

[MidlandRed]

55 minutes ago, pH said:

The first day I saw EE Type 3s in Scotland was 23 August 1966, and I saw 6 on that day. Here's one sneaking into a photograph of a far more worthwhile subject  at Dunfermline shed on that day:

 

 

(Edit - spelling)

 

Great photo - not sure which is the best loco though - I'm more a diesel fan! Nice B1. The date matches as the first few were reallocated in August 66, followed by others in September (I've corrected my post). 

[Halvarras]

If proposing to give your green 37 an appropriate number (if your eyesight is up to it!) steer clear of D6937 as this one was in blue by March 1967, before it left the WR (very likely the first blue 37). D6845 also acquired a blue repaint within a couple of years of arriving in Scotland. On the other hand D6841 was still green with small yellow panels in spring 1970.

MidlandRed mentioned Class 25s D7611-23, these were the only 25s with tablet catcher recesses in the driver's cabsides, although I would not regard modifying the ancient Farish 25/3 as a good use of modelling time.....! No doubt a retooled version will appear at some point.

[The Johnster]

It's floating around vaguely in the back of the remnants of what I was once told was a fine instrument, my brain, that the first EE type 3 to be trialled on the WR, D6830, had been transferred to the region in 1963 from Scotland, but I may be confusing this with the loco having been allocated to Scotland and re-allocated to the WR, Radyr without ever actually going to Scotland.  The WR had allegedly ordered 100 low geared Hymeks with a top speed of 60 mph to replace the 56xx steam locos in the South Wales Valleys but had to source EE locos to replace them when Beyer-Peacock went out of business.  There was some gossip that B-P had paid for the materials for these locos and that BR for some reason failed to pay their deposit, which is why B-P had to call in the receivers.

[keefer]

Remembered this old blog post by 'CHARD:

Initially Polmadie and Haymarket in 1966 with Eastfield becoming involved in 1968

[luckymucklebackit]

I remember as a nipper around 1967 making a point of heading for Whifflet Junction in Coatbridge as the "Type 3s" were rostered for the two evening  fast freights from Sighthill to Carlisle, they made a pleasant change from the constant stream of Clayton and EE Type 1s and BRCW and BR Type 2s that were the normal freight traction on that line.

 

Jim

[br2975]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It's floating around vaguely in the back of the remnants of what I was once told was a fine instrument, my brain, that the first EE type 3 to be trialled on the WR, D6830, had been transferred to the region in 1963 from Scotland, but I may be confusing this with the loco having been allocated to Scotland and re-allocated to the WR, Radyr without ever actually going to Scotland.  The WR had allegedly ordered 100 low geared Hymeks with a top speed of 60 mph to replace the 56xx steam locos in the South Wales Valleys but had to source EE locos to replace them when Beyer-Peacock went out of business.  There was some gossip that B-P had paid for the materials for these locos and that BR for some reason failed to pay their deposit, which is why B-P had to call in the receivers.

 

D6742 & D6743 were the first pair trialled in South Wales, and they came from Darnall (Sheffield).

.

I have in my collection a monochrome image by Bob Masterman of D6743 on up empty minerals, passing Radyr's 34xx, 3401 at Llanbradach, in 1963.

.

D6819 onwards were allox to South Wales, from new (excepting of course D6959-D6968).

.

Brian R

[caradoc]

22 hours ago, luckymucklebackit said:

I remember as a nipper around 1967 making a point of heading for Whifflet Junction in Coatbridge as the "Type 3s" were rostered for the two evening  fast freights from Sighthill to Carlisle, they made a pleasant change from the constant stream of Clayton and EE Type 1s and BRCW and BR Type 2s that were the normal freight traction on that line.

 

Jim

 

Oh for a Time Machine, to be able to see any of that again !

[Legend]

There was a picture , I think in "History of Railways " of a green class 37 alongside one of the last J36s  I think dated 1967

[luckymucklebackit]

4 hours ago, Legend said:

There was a picture , I think in "History of Railways " of a green class 37 alongside one of the last J36s  I think dated 1967

 

Cann't confirm the book, but I do remember this photo, I am sure it was at Seafield Colliery.

 

Jim

[MidlandRed]

On 25 November 2019 at 01:40, The Johnster said:

The WR ordered 100 low geared Hymeks with a top speed of 60 mph to replace the 56xx steam locos in the South Wales Valleys but had to source EE locos to replace them when Beyer-Peacock went out of business.  There was some gossip that B-P had paid for the materials for these locos and that BR for some reason failed to pay their deposit, which is why B-P had to call in the receivers.

 

I'm not sure about the extra Hymeks and BP. No doubt the absence of future BR orders had an influence on their plight but note the Type 2 order mentioned below. 

 

I don't think BR got as far as placing orders for the Hymeks although I have read that is what WR planned to order. I think the decision to stop WR ordering new hydraulics must have been made in 1963 - I have read that the technical press were suddenly invited to BRB where it was announced the WR was to receive Brush Type 4s and EE Type 3s (which materialised initially as D1682 on (some were Oxley - LMR by the time they arrived) and D6819 on). I'm not sure what state BP was in but it wasn't until 1966 that, having built/whilst building BR Type 2s D7624-D7659 they asked to be released from D7660-D7677 owing to the state of the company - these of course being built at Derby and delivered from late 1966 (in BR blue). Perhaps they received that order in lieu of more Hymeks?

 

Presumably the D95xx escaped the decision re hydraulics or the order predated it - possibly in connection with keeping Swindon busy with new construction a little longer. Whatever, as history has shown, many of these locos started to be laid up by the WR within 18 months to 2 years of delivery so really somewhat of a disastrous purchase. Although further great variety for us enthusiasts!! 

Edited November 29, 2019 by MidlandRed

[The Johnster]

The background to the decision to abandon the Hydraulics was the situation that had reached near crisis proportions on the WR in 1962.  The region was committed to the policy of eliminating steam before the other regions, and any shed allocate a diesel was required to withdraw 3 of the steam locos it replaced, the accepted wisdom being that diesel availability would allow this.  In the even, the reliability and transmission problems of the hydraulics meant that the timetable came close to collapse because of lack of locomotives to pull the trains, and Swindon's erecting shop bays became blocked with disfunctional diesel hydraulics.  

 

This delayed the production of new locos at Swindon, and the effect was already being felt in 1959 when Crewe was able to completed the 92221-50 series of 9Fs well before Swindon finished it's batch with Evening Star.  Matters steadily worsened, and the new wonder loco to save the hydraulics was ordered with two engines to increase reliability.  Even then, Crewe beat Swindon to the delivery dates and the Westerns proved to have their own transmission issues.

 

So, by '62, the hydraulic scheme, championed as a method of getting more power out of a loco than 1950s generators that were small enough could handle, was in tatters.  New locos could not be built because Swindon was blocked with broken down Warships and still doing steam overhauls.  A second generation of lighter, higher powered, diesel electrics had been developed, and EE and Brush were in a position to supply the type 3s and type 4s the WR needed quickly, both types which had proven themselves on the ER, ironically the region the WR was desperately trying to beat to 'total dieselisation'.

 

The D95xx were the last gasp of the WR's hydraulic intentions.  They were ordered in (I think) '62 as replacements for the steam 94xx, and are the classic mistake in hindsight.  There was still a lot of work for a loco that size in South Wales for shorter haul colliery trips and transfer goods, but the delays at Swindon meant that they were not delivered until the end of WR steam in 1965, by which time much of that work was either being done by 37s or 08s, or had ceased to exist.  

[MidlandRed]

I've been researching books I have on the modernisation plan. As always with these matters there are lots of complexities - the Transport Act 1962 (Marples) broke up the BTC and Area Boards and was centralised under the BRB which may have had a bearing on these matters. The centralised staff had moved towards a 2750 hp standardised diesel-electric and it offered the same weight levels but lower cost than the hydraulic version (Western class) so only 74 of the 150 requested by the WR were made (the others presumably becoming Brush Type 4s). In 1963, Beyer Peacock asked BRB about the likelihood of extending the run of Hymeks - at that time the WR estimated it would need another 400 type 3s. Within 3 yrs they were offering type 1 and NB Warship type 4s for inter-regional reallocation. 

 

The type 1 (listed with type 2s) requirement was first seen in the traction requests for WR area 1 and 2 (West of England and Bristol) schemes in July 1959. Further type 1s were requested in the South Wales scheme submission in August 1960 - but the design still to be agreed with central staff. 

 

Its interesting that the WR had recognised that for Area 4 (Birmingham) diesel electrics would be appropriate, reflecting the benefit of interchangeability between regions. This may partially have been in response to complaints about duplication of facilities in that area. 

 

The BRB also reflected on the maintenance and reliability issues and began to look at traction on a national basis as one unit in March 1963. So the issue on Hymeks v EE Type 3 and Western v Brush Type 4 are likely to have been decided at this time. The National Traction Plan first appeared in 1965. 

Edited November 29, 2019 by MidlandRed

[jjnewitt]

13 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

The BRB also reflected on the maintenance and reliability issues and began to look at traction on a national basis as one unit in March 1963. So the issue on Hymeks v EE Type 3 and Western v Brush Type 4 are likely to have been decided at this time. The National Traction Plan first appeared in 1965. 

 

Given that D6742 and D6743 arrived at Canton for crew training purposes in September 62 ahead of delivery of the Western Region's own batch (which started in March 63), I think that the decision on EE Type 3s v Hymeks had been made well before then and possibly not long after the creation of the BRB.

 

Justin

[caradoc]

Gateshead had Class 37s allocated from December 62 onwards, might these have made it down the ECML to Edinburgh or Millerhill ?

[The Johnster]

On 29/11/2019 at 19:50, MidlandRed said:

 

The BRB also reflected on the maintenance and reliability issues and began to look at traction on a national basis as one unit in March 1963. So the issue on Hymeks v EE Type 3 and Western v Brush Type 4 are likely to have been decided at this time. The National Traction Plan first appeared in 1965. 

The issue was complicated by the WR's hasty withdrawal of steam locos and the decision to ban steam west of Bristol at the end of '62.  In March '63 it was clear that the remaining Westerns were unlikely to be delivered from Swindon on time and the low gear Hymeks for South Wales had been put back for more BR type 2s from B-P, already in the wars for liquid cash.  The WR had been through this before with North British and didn't want a recurrence.  I was told at Canton in the 70s that B-P had actually ordered and paid for the materials for these Hymeks, and WR didn't underwrite this, contributing further to the problems of a company by that time already circling the drain.

 

What the WR wanted was more type 3s to replace Halls and 56xx, and more high power type 4s to replace Castles, urgently and in volume, and this was never gonna happen unless they accepted electric transmission.  One of their objections to it had been partially overcome; smaller, lighter, generators able to handle the output of larger, more powerful, prime movers which themselves weighed less.  So between 1958 (D200, 142tons 2.000hp), 1959 (D803, 89 tons, 2.200hp), 1962 (D1000, 108 tons, 2,700hp), and, again 1962 (D1500, 117 tons, 2,750hp later derated by 100hp), the power/weight ratio gap between electric and hydraulic transmission of similar capabilities had narrowed to an extent that undermined the WR's argument.  The clincher was that EE were in full production of type 3s and Brush were in full production of type 4s, both types already proven on the ER, and were able to accept orders and deliver quickly, so they were able to flood the WR with new locos that meant that the crisis was over by early '64 and the vestiges of steam were hanging on on previously GW parts of the LMR after August '65.  

 

The diesel electrics had rescued the WR's timetable and enabled the region to achieve it's ambition to be the first region to be in a position to claim to have eliminated steam*, but at the cost of the hydraulic concept on BR.  The hydraulics were kept in service until they became impossible to repair (D63xx), were unable to have air brakes fitted because of lack of onboard space (D8xx, D70xx) or could not have ETH and headend airco fitted for the same reason (D10xx).

 

 

*Steam locos were still showing up on the WR at Gloucester and Oxford in '66,

[MidlandRed]

Running the WR must have been a real headache in 1961/2.

 

As an add on to this Hymek deliveries  comprised 16, 48, 34 and 3 being delivered in 1961-4 respectively. As we have seen, the EE Type 3 was already under trial in South Wales in 1962 so must have been ordered for the WR not long after. It's difficult to see how BP could have seen a green light to order equipment when they were only 2/3  through delivering their existing order, and it is on record they approached BRB about potential for further orders in 1963 - when the EE Type 3 must have already been on order. So if they did actually order equipment it must have been at their own risk. BRB had even gone to the trouble of making a public announcement re new stock for the WR via the tech press. 

 

It is interesting that the preparation of the National Traction Plan (first version 1965) highlighted the over provision of equipment generally and required stock to be offered for transfer. The reasons for over provision were complex and many - not least Beeching - but one was not taking due account of the flexibility of diesel and electric to work continuously (if they were reliable). The WR was the first to do so (possibly because it had already eliminated steam) declaring 20 NB built Warships redundant - presumably these are the ones which got redeployed to the Birmingham Division in 1967/8 (Tyseley and Bescot), used on Bham to Paddington duties, followed by the Class 14s which went to Hull. There was also the class 116, and then railbus/class 122 exodus to Scotland in 1966/67 - and also class 37s...the NTP also was to an extent responsible for the curtailing of the class 21 re-engining programme in Scotland. So once the WR availability problem was solved they seem to have had a surplus of stock. 

Edited December 1, 2019 by MidlandRed

[jjnewitt]

4 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

As we have seen, the EE Type 3 was already under trial in South Wales in 1962 so must have been ordered for the WR not long after. It's difficult to see how BP could have seen a green light to order equipment when they were only 2/3  through delivering their existing order, and it is on record they approached BRB about potential for further orders in 1963 - when the EE Type 3 must have already been on order.

 

According to the Wikipedia page for the EE type 3s the order for the first Western Region batch was placed in July 1962 (EE works order CCP 1304, 100 locos, D6819-D6918). 

 

I imagine the main reason for the over provision of locos was simply down to loss of the work for which they were intended. The Beeching Report was of course a reaction to that loss of traffic on the railways. The Railways at the time always seemed to be a step behind what was needed in a fast changing world. The Swindon type 1s were a classic case. When they were envisioned there was a need for that kind of loco but that need had all but gone by the time they (finally) appeared.

 

justin

Edited December 1, 2019 by jjnewitt
Can’t count...

[Steamysandy]

My first sighting of an English Electric type3 in Scotland was D6857 on Haymarket shed freshly transferred.

One found itself on the 14-25 Edinburgh to Newcastle and was recorded as noteworthy at the time.(This train had some very interesting motive power at times - including Gatesheads Class 24s later used on the Concert ore trains!)