Hull & Barnsley Rly Ground Signal.

[micknich2003]

To the best of my knowledge the H&BRly started to use this style of ground signal from c1897 when Evans O Donnell became the lines signalling contractors.  I have not seen these used on any other railway and I wonder if they were unique to the H&BRly.  Comments welcome.

[iands]

Having looked at the photo again in a little more detail, I just love the simplicity of the ground signal.

[bécasse]

EoD were effectively in existence for only a few years at the end of Victoria's reign. Most of the work that they did for British companies seems to have used the appropriate companies standard signal design and that was certainly the case on the SECR and GER (even though EoD designed boxes were installed on the former).

EoD did some overseas work, for example in Argentina, and it seems that something akin to that used on the H&BR was used there. https://www.flickr.com/photos/44833183@N06/9712084423/in/photostream/

[bécasse]

As well as the H&BR, EoD seem to have been major suppliers of signalling to the (western end of the) Central London Railway and the Barry Railway. As far as I can tell from the very small number of contemporary photographs that show ground signals neither used signals of the design in your photograph which, in the UK at least, would seem to be unique to the H&BR.

O'Donnell went on to found the British Pneumatic Railway Signal Company in 1901 and their standard ground signal appears to bear (a rather nebulous) relationship to the H&BR signal. Examples could be found on the L&Y R and L&SWR, and probably the GCR as well. There is a series of photographs of one here

[The Stationmaster]

On 26/11/2019 at 22:06, bécasse said:

As well as the H&BR, EoD seem to have been major suppliers of signalling to the (western end of the) Central London Railway and the Barry Railway. As far as I can tell from the very small number of contemporary photographs that show ground signals neither used signals of the design in your photograph which, in the UK at least, would seem to be unique to the H&BR.

O'Donnell went on to found the British Pneumatic Railway Signal Company in 1901 and their standard ground signal appears to bear (a rather nebulous) relationship to the H&BR signal. Examples could be found on the L&Y R and L&SWR, and probably the GCR as well. There is a series of photographs of one here

The Bolton signals are the type supplied by the McKenzie, Holland and Westinghouse Power Signal Co Ltd a joint company formed in 1907 to carry on what had previously been a joint operation between the two parent companies (i.e. McKenzie & Holland and the Westinghouse Brake Company) which had first worked together on the Bishopsgate power signalling installation installation in 1899.  The joint company was completely taken over by the Westinghouse Brake Co, in 1920 when it acquired certain assets of the Consolidated  Signal Co.  The takeover of the Consolidated signal Co also gave Westinghouse Brake Company control of Saxby & Farmer, McKenzie & Holland (England) plus two other overseas signalling companies.  Westinghouse then changed the company name to the Westinghouse House Brake and Saxby signal Co but altered it to the Westinghouse Brake & Signal Co in 1935

 

The Bolton ground signal were therefore supplied by the joint company and not by the separate British Pneumatic Signal Company and four of them were installed at Slough Bath Road in 1913 as part of an installation the joint company supplied to the GWR (source GWR Magazine, 1913 - which also carried an advert for the joint company

 

What is not clear is if the British Pneumatic Signal Co and the Pneumatic Electric and General Engineerin Company (which later became the Consolidated Signal Co) were one and the same  - the year in which both companies were founded is the same but the former is mentioned in contract documents of later dates.  What is clear however is that both the British Pneumatic Signal Co and McKenzie, Holland and Westinghouse Power Signal Co were installing signalling equipment of US origin after WWI and probably prior to that war.

[bécasse]

On 10/12/2019 at 19:25, The Stationmaster said:

The Bolton signals are the type supplied by the McKenzie, Holland and Westinghouse Power Signal Co Ltd a joint company formed in 1907 to carry on what had previously been a joint operation between the two parent companies (i.e. McKenzie & Holland and the Westinghouse Brake Company) which had first worked together on the Bishopsgate power signalling installation installation in 1899.  The joint company was completely taken over by the Westinghouse Brake Co, in 1920 when it acquired certain assets of the Consolidated  Signal Co.  The takeover of the Consolidated signal Co also gave Westinghouse Brake Company control of Saxby & Farmer, McKenzie & Holland (England) plus two other overseas signalling companies.  Westinghouse then changed the company name to the Westinghouse House Brake and Saxby signal Co but altered it to the Westinghouse Brake & Signal Co in 1935

 

The Bolton ground signal were therefore supplied by the joint company and not by the separate British Pneumatic Signal Company and four of them were installed at Slough Bath Road in 1913 as part of an installation the joint company supplied to the GWR (source GWR Magazine, 1913 - which also carried an advert for the joint company

 

What is not clear is if the British Pneumatic Signal Co and the Pneumatic Electric and General Engineerin Company (which later became the Consolidated Signal Co) were one and the same  - the year in which both companies were founded is the same but the former is mentioned in contract documents of later dates.  What is clear however is that both the British Pneumatic Signal Co and McKenzie, Holland and Westinghouse Power Signal Co were installing signalling equipment of US origin after WWI and probably prior to that war.

Which is very interesting, Mike. The various LSWR installations, starting with Grateley and notably including the two Salisbury boxes as well as the automatic signalling on the four-track main line east of Basingstoke, were definitely supplied by the British Pneumatic Signal Company, partially, it seems, with the aim of convincing the BoT of the acceptability of pneumatic signalling, the LSWR having a particularly close relationship with the BoT at this time (probably not unconnected with the amount of military traffic it handled).

Photographs of the early LSWR pneumatic ground signals are rare, and clear ones even rarer, and they were modified at least twice in the their lifetime, eventually ending up with round discs. However, as first installed c1902, they definitely had rubber-ended arms and that, and their general visible shape, suggest that they may well have been identical to the Bolton examples, they were certainly very similar. Given the rarity of pneumatic installations in the UK at the time (and indeed later), it isn't impossible that the two competitors pooled resources for manufacture, perhaps, as you hint, by buying from a common source in the US. One thing that seems certain is that the installations, although still partly experimental, were built to last. The LSWR installations remained operational into the 1960s (ie a lifetime of well over 50 years) although partly converted to electro-pneumatic operation (the busy Salisbury West box remained pure pneumatic until its demise).

[RailWest]

>>>LSWR installations remained operational into the 1960s (ie a lifetime of well over 50 years)....

 

The two Salisbury boxes lasted until 1981 (according to SRS Register) :-)