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Availability Dec-March 2020

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Hrmph...still no mention of the Bulleid 64' coaches. Hopefully they're using the time to perfect the glazing.

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Everything from Bachmann just keeps getting more and more expensive. I was planning to pick up an SECR Birdcage set but looking at the prices now I'm kind of put off. £80 per coach, 3 in a set so looking at £240 for only three coaches. Thats insane, its not even a new tooling. 

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Thanks for sharing! I'm really looking forward to the Class 158.

 

Any idea when the GWR Class 150 is expected for release?

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9 hours ago, Ryan91 said:

Thanks for sharing! I'm really looking forward to the Class 158.

 

Any idea when the GWR Class 150 is expected for release?

Sorry Ryan no.I will say next year .The rep said they will be latter half of 2020.

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On 24/11/2019 at 20:54, AlexHolt said:

Everything from Bachmann just keeps getting more and more expensive. I was planning to pick up an SECR Birdcage set but looking at the prices now I'm kind of put off. £80 per coach, 3 in a set so looking at £240 for only three coaches. Thats insane, its not even a new tooling. 

 

I'd like a malachite set but I think I shall wait for an inevitable bulk buy discount, I wish I'd waited before getting the SR olive liveried ones straight away as I could have saved quite a bit! 

 

Edited typos. 

Edited by GreenGiraffe22
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The price rises are one thing and this has been expected, but there must be a certain amount of jacking them up to maximum prices for profit taking. While you can understand the reasons for this, Bachmann being a business out to make money, the fact that they can suddenly drop them and then position them under other competition as they did with the class 66 shows that this is happening.

I also think there will be many people holding off when the models are released until when discounts can be applied, then people will buy them. If that's the case, why not just pitch the model at the lower price and then get them sold.

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28 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

The price rises are one thing and this has been expected, but there must be a certain amount of jacking them up to maximum prices for profit taking. While you can understand the reasons for this, Bachmann being a business out to make money, the fact that they can suddenly drop them and then position them under other competition as they did with the class 66 shows that this is happening.

I also think there will be many people holding off when the models are released until when discounts can be applied, then people will buy them. If that's the case, why not just pitch the model at the lower price and then get them sold.

 

Its pretty similar to what I noticed with Hornby. 

At the Hornby Visitor Centre they have SR S15s which are £155 brand new and they are selling them for £75, still new and unopened. They must still be making a profit off it otherwise they wouldn't drop it to that price. They were also doing this with the K1, A3, A4, SR Schools Class, Class 153 and almost every other locomotive on the shelf there, everything had 50% off. It just shows how much less they could actually be sold for and it really is just a case of companies marking the price as high as they can for maximum profit. Sure they need to make a profit but they are pricing people out of the hobby. 

 

I'll definitely be holding off until they either go down in price or get put in a bundle. The way it stands at the moment £80 for a single coach is far too much. For £80 I'd expect it to have lights, people and all sorts of additional detail out of the box but it doesn't. 

 

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Lots of 37s coming there...if I can find a retailer getting them below £140 I may be interested.

 

Wonder why the loadhaul is a tenner more than EWS ? I’m guessing harder to print , as both names will be property of DB cargo these days thus no difference in licence cost

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19 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

Everything from Bachmann just keeps getting more and more expensive. I was planning to pick up an SECR Birdcage set but looking at the prices now I'm kind of put off. £80 per coach, 3 in a set so looking at £240 for only three coaches. Thats insane, its not even a new tooling. 

 

So the list price rises ever further to £80 to cover the cost of selling them off later at ever-lower prices.

(Brand new Birdcages currently available at £40 - Half the price).

 

At what stage does this bubble burst, and they get next to zero sales at list price?  It can't be far away now.

What happens to our two largest producers and our two largest retailers when it does?

Whatever happens, it can't go on like this.

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9 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

 

Its pretty similar to what I noticed with Hornby. 

At the Hornby Visitor Centre they have SR S15s which are £155 brand new and they are selling them for £75, still new and unopened. They must still be making a profit off it otherwise they wouldn't drop it to that price.

You need to look at the whole production rather than the boxes of them in the visitor centre of them. Hornby will have paid £x for the whole production run, lets say its 2000 for convenience; they will have sold them on to the trade at £x/2000 + y each. At some point the total amount of y will exceed x and they will be making a profit on any further ones sold so you get to the situation that they could sell them at any price and still make a profit. That is the basis economics equally employed by retailers like Oakes who have an annual bargain day literally giving models away for very few £;  there is the further issue of the costs of warehousing; items sat in the warehouse are not bringing in any money but are costing money to a limited extent that builds up over time and ultimately if not shifted would require an extra warehouse, and more costs, to accommodate new stock because the old stock is still occupying the space so there can be a degree of writing off stock as it would cost too much to retain.

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10 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

I also think there will be many people holding off when the models are released until when discounts can be applied, then people will buy them. If that's the case, why not just pitch the model at the lower price and then get them sold.

@The Black Hat, If they where to pitch the model at the lower price people would still wait for them to be reduce further. Damned if they did and Damned if they don't a bit of a vicious circle. Also you would lose more shops due to less money made from each model sold. 

 

10 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

At the Hornby Visitor Centre they have SR S15s which are £155 brand new and they are selling them for £75, still new and unopened. They must still be making a profit off it otherwise they wouldn't drop it to that price. They were also doing this with the K1, A3, A4, SR Schools Class, Class 153 and almost every other locomotive on the shelf there, everything had 50% off. It just shows how much less they could actually be sold for and it really is just a case of companies marking the price as high as they can for maximum profit. Sure they need to make a profit but they are pricing people out of the hobby. 

@AlexHolt, A company will work out how much to sell each model for to cover and make a profit on the production run. There is a difference between the RRP and the unit price of a model for various reasons.

 

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10 hours ago, AlexHolt said:

 

Its pretty similar to what I noticed with Hornby. 

At the Hornby Visitor Centre they have SR S15s which are £155 brand new and they are selling them for £75, still new and unopened. They must still be making a profit off it otherwise they wouldn't drop it to that price. They were also doing this with the K1, A3, A4, SR Schools Class, Class 153 and almost every other locomotive on the shelf there, everything had 50% off. It just shows how much less they could actually be sold for and it really is just a case of companies marking the price as high as they can for maximum profit. Sure they need to make a profit but they are pricing people out of the hobby. 

 

I'll definitely be holding off until they either go down in price or get put in a bundle. The way it stands at the moment £80 for a single coach is far too much. For £80 I'd expect it to have lights, people and all sorts of additional detail out of the box but it doesn't. 

 

 

Alex

 

They are almost certainly not making a profit on items at £75 compared to RRP of £155.  It will be more a mitigation of loss - they have paid for the item and its delivery to the UK.  Unless they sell it, at whatever price, their loss is the full production price.  To even get back part of that cost improves their financial position.  Alternatively they may also view the revenue as being across the full production run.  If they have a run of 2000 and sell 1000 at full price and fully cover the costs of production and delivery to the UK of the full 2000, any money they get from the sale of the last 1000 is profit.  Hence selling at £75 could be rational even if it is below the average cost price of the full 2000 production run.  Without actual access to the product P&L, you can’t work out exactly what is happening but I’d reckon that, at best, they may have just covered their cost however you cannot extrapolate from the visitor centre price to their overall product profitability.     

 

Given Hornby has been in severe financial difficulties for most of the last few years, I don’t think they are profiteering.

 

David

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13 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

The price rises are one thing and this has been expected, but there must be a certain amount of jacking them up to maximum prices for profit taking. While you can understand the reasons for this, Bachmann being a business out to make money, the fact that they can suddenly drop them and then position them under other competition as they did with the class 66 shows that this is happening.

I also think there will be many people holding off when the models are released until when discounts can be applied, then people will buy them. If that's the case, why not just pitch the model at the lower price and then get them sold.

 

Oddly, the 37 is pitched higher than the recently announced competition.  £180!   Maybe they've just made the one.

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43 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

Oddly, the 37 is pitched higher than the recently announced competition.  £180!   Maybe they've just made the one.

 

Think that's because Bachmann are doing the 37/4 and not going direct against each other with the 37/6 and that these prices were probably confirmed with no idea that Accurascale were about to come with the 37. Don't think Bachmann are doing any 37/0's at the moment, but will be interesting to watch what they do. I can see Bachmann still going for their class 37, much like they kept their A4 going against Hornby's. But I expect movement on the next range items made - but then also will be interested in there becomes a Bachmann v Accurascale issue anywhere. 

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11 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Lots of 37s coming there...if I can find a retailer getting them below £140 I may be interested.

 

Wonder why the loadhaul is a tenner more than EWS ? I’m guessing harder to print , as both names will be property of DB cargo these days thus no difference in licence cost

 

Aye and yet another £10 more for 37416 Mount Fuji in Exec livery @ £190...gulp !

thankfully Accurascale is now on the case.....

£190 less 15% is a long way from £140 ! 

 

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Conversation with my local model railway shop proprietor (yes, I know, I'm lucky still to have one and a very good one, at that) suggests that the mark up on locos and coaches is very small and that the manufacturers often make a loss on them if they have to be discounted in order to clear shelves.  This is in part the result of the 'just in time' method  of manufacture, stocking, and delivering items which delivers the most efficient and cost effective means of doing this, and saves more money than is lost in discounts.  Shop owners make a better mark up out of wagons and better still out of track and accessories.

 

Prices are increasing because costs are increasing, and what it costs is what it costs.  Most models are made in China, and Chinese people work hard to produce high quality output, so it is not surprising that they are demanding higher wages, better conditions, and a better lifestyle than they were happy to put up with a few decades ago; I for one don't begrudge them it.  At the same time fuel and raw material costs rise because we are running out of those things or they are costing more to produce; most new oil fields are offshore for example, and iron ore deposits are worked out of the easily mined stuff.  

 

Nobody makes a fortune out of model railways, but it is possible to make a living and satisfy your shareholders and investors.  It is probably more true to say that models 20 years ago were unrealistically cheap than that current ones are unreasonably expensive.

 

Anyway, back to the list, not much for me but some nice wagons included that will probably tempt me into parting with my hard earned beer vouchers...

Edited by The Johnster
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5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Conversation with my local model railway shop proprietor (yes, I know, I'm lucky still to have one and a very good one, at that) suggests that the mark up on locos and coaches is very small and that the manufacturers often make a loss on them if they have to be discounted in order to clear shelves.  This is in part the result of the 'just in time' method  of manufacture, stocking, and delivering items which delivers the most efficient and cost effective means of doing this, and saves more money than is lost in discounts.  Shop owners make a better mark up out of wagons and better still out of track and accessories.

 

Prices are increasing because costs are increasing, and what it costs is what it costs.  Most models are made in China, and Chinese people work hard to produce high quality output, so it is not surprising that they are demanding higher wages, better conditions, and a better lifestyle than they were happy to put up with a few decades ago; I for one don't begrudge them it.  At the same time fuel and raw material costs rise because we are running out of those things or they are costing more to produce; most new oil fields are offshore for example, and iron ore deposits are worked out of the easily mined stuff.  

 

Nobody makes a fortune out of model railways, but it is possible to make a living and satisfy your shareholders and investors.  It is probably more true to say that models 20 years ago were unrealistically cheap than that current ones are unreasonably expensive.

Dangerously OT, I know...

 

But at some point in any discussion on pricing, someone will suggest bringing production back to the UK or mainland Europe. The counter-argument to which is "if you think locos are expensive now...".

 

I wonder at what point that counter-argument ceases to hold water?

 

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The exchange rate differences over time should not be ignored.  Please see below for a 10 year graph of the Pound to the Yuan.  A drop in the value of GBP from 11 Yuan to 9 Yaun is 18% and with the present uncertain times companies are going to be particularly cautious in their pricing.

 

image.png.3e2658ca839646a1eee7ccafebea405f.png

 

Best regards

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15 hours ago, Forester said:

At what stage does this bubble burst, and they get next to zero sales at list price?  It can't be far away now.

What happens to our two largest producers and our two largest retailers when it does?

Whatever happens, it can't go on like this.

 

Hi,

 

I’d say the bubble bursts when we the consumers stop being willing to pay these prices.  So long as people will pay it, Bachmann et. al. will be able to charge it.

 

Everyone is individual in the way they approach this.  Some will have saved up, and when another price rise comes into force they will simply justify the extra.  

Others may well just have enough disposable income that it doesn’t even register.

Some will sell on older stock no longer wanted to fund new items.

 

Personally it has gone past my limit.  Whilst I’m an N gauger, not OO, the problems are being felt waiting for Farish products. The Farish 2Fs, due Jan 2020, have now gone back to ‘TBA’.  Asking at the Warley stand, Bachmann staff were quite open about it, but they didn’t like my response to the cost implications of the delay.  They simply couldn’t understand that I wouldn’t buy any of them if I couldn’t afford to run a train prototypically.  They seriously expected that I would just spend as much as I could on as many as I could rather than walk away with my money still in my pocket.

 

 

Paul

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I’ve seen what the markup is on Bachmann items. It’s reasonable for locos, but then , as said, goes less and less for other items.

 

 

Had my 37174 out the other day , £106 in 2015......

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Depends on what you mean by markup . There's retailers markup , but then theres Bachmann UKs markup and of course the Kader to Bachmann UK markup.

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7 hours ago, bigP said:

 

Hi,

 

I’d say the bubble bursts when we the consumers stop being willing to pay these prices.  So long as people will pay it, Bachmann et. al. will be able to charge it.

 

Everyone is individual in the way they approach this.  Some will have saved up, and when another price rise comes into force they will simply justify the extra.  

Others may well just have enough disposable income that it doesn’t even register.

Some will sell on older stock no longer wanted to fund new items.

 

Personally it has gone past my limit.  Whilst I’m an N gauger, not OO, the problems are being felt waiting for Farish products. The Farish 2Fs, due Jan 2020, have now gone back to ‘TBA’.  Asking at the Warley stand, Bachmann staff were quite open about it, but they didn’t like my response to the cost implications of the delay.  They simply couldn’t understand that I wouldn’t buy any of them if I couldn’t afford to run a train prototypically.  They seriously expected that I would just spend as much as I could on as many as I could rather than walk away with my money still in my pocket.

 

 

Paul

I feel your pain, Paul.  I'm a poor pensioner who cannot increase his income in a world of rising prices who must prioritise spending on basics first; the amount of money I have to spend on my hobby is limited and becoming more so.  But I cannot expect RTR manufacturers to sympathise with me, as I am very much a minority type of customer.  Their marketeers work to the principle that the core market is relatively comfortably off middle class homeowners with incomes over £30k/annum that have paid off their mortgages or are close to it, having bought their homes when house prices were half what they are now in real terms.  The kids are off their hands and they have disposable income to build the layout they've promised themselves for years, or collect the models they've wanted for years, or whatever.

 

Many of these customers will continue to buy models, as they can still afford them for a good time yet despite rising prices.  No doubt they will complain bitterly on sites and threads such as this, but I didn't hear them championing the low price of quality Chinese product 20 years ago when ownership of a bicycle was aspirational for a Chinese worker.

 

But these people are the core market that the marketing teams devote their core efforts towards, and the marketing teams are by and large the same people that man the sales stands at Warley and the like.  The marketeers are not concerned with the needs of the likes of us, Paul, and do not bother to try to understand us, because that's not their job.  You are right, the bubble, if it's a bubble, will burst when it is overinflated, but it's nowhere near that yet except for the low income fringe (us), which is always marginal as far as marketing goes.

 

The economic laws of supply and demand are iron, immutable, and pitiless.  If demand exceeds supply price will rise irrespective of the level we say we can pay, and demand for raw materials, assembly plant space, shipping space, warehousing and just about everything is in a state of short supply.  Labour, fuel, and other fixed overheads are getting costlier, the backers want their pound of flesh with interest, and we don't get a say; whatever they tell you, the customer is usually wrong, and the shareholder isn't...

Edited by The Johnster

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55 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I feel your pain, Paul.  I'm a poor pensioner who cannot increase his income in a world of rising prices who must prioritise spending on basics first; the amount of money I have to spend on my hobby is limited and becoming more so.  But I cannot expect RTR manufacturers to sympathise with me, as I am very much a minority type of customer.  Their marketeers work to the principle that the core market is relatively comfortably off middle class homeowners with incomes over £30k/annum that have paid off their mortgages or are close to it, having bought their homes when house prices were half what they are now in real terms.  The kids are off their hands and they have disposable income to build the layout they've promised themselves for years, or collect the models they've wanted for years, or whatever.

 

Many of these customers will continue to buy models, as they can still afford them for a good time yet despite rising prices.  No doubt they will complain bitterly on sites and threads such as this, but I didn't hear them championing the low price of quality Chinese product 20 years ago when ownership of a bicycle was aspirational for a Chinese worker.

 

But these people are the core market that the marketing teams devote their core efforts towards, and the marketing teams are by and large the same people that man the sales stands at Warley and the like.  The marketeers are not concerned with the needs of the likes of us, Paul, and do not bother to try to understand us, because that's not their job.  You are right, the bubble, if it's a bubble, will burst when it is overinflated, but it's nowhere near that yet except for the low income fringe (us), which is always marginal as far as marketing goes.

 

The economic laws of supply and demand are iron, immutable, and pitiless.  If demand exceeds supply price will rise irrespective of the level we say we can pay, and demand for raw materials, assembly plant space, shipping space, warehousing and just about everything is in a state of short supply.  Labour, fuel, and other fixed overheads are getting costlier, the backers want their pound of flesh with interest, and we don't get a say; whatever they tell you, the customer is usually wrong, and the shareholder isn't...

The Shareholder being the one who takes the gamble and fronts the initial costs. If the product is good and sales are high they win. If its not they lose everything. That's investing for you (see the Dave Jones episode.)

Ian_B

 

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