Nearholmer Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) There were a lot of fairly unconventional, by later standards, push-pull/motor-train/auto-train combinations before 1923, and even the more conventional ones were often very elegant, added to which the loco+coach combo was often preceded by rail-motors/railcars, steam or petrol powered, until everyone worked out that they weren't such a good idea. The midland Railway combo of ex-Pullman plus M&GNR 4-4-0T appears periodically on RMWeb, and the GWR ones get quite a billing, but the others seem a tad neglected, so I suggest that we should celebrate them. Naturally, this topic links to "Halts as Termini" https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/141692-halts-as-termini/&tab=comments#comment-3447256. I'll start with a combo that I think was truly elegant: GCR (ex-MS&LR) Class 12AM with 12 wheel driving trailer. Photo of the real thing here http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/a/aylesbury/index3.shtml with a couple of milk vans in tow. The Rev Peter Denny built a lovely EM model, which operated his Grandborough Junction to Leighton Buzzard service, but I can't find a photo to link to, but here is the same thing scratch-built in 0 scale in the 1970s. The LBSCR structured comparison between petrol railcars, steam railcars, and motor-trains gave us some beauties too, but what about other railways? Pre-group only please. Kevin Edited November 29, 2019 by Nearholmer 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 The source that you point to is interesting, but I would caution against assuming that it is entirely accurate, and it makes no claims to completeness. Much as with the goods-handling info on the same site, its a good place to use as a point of departure to further reading. Here is the picture of the P Sandwich (scroll down a bit) http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/greenwich_park/ I think that the ex-LCDR six-wheeler (reduced to four) PP sets might not have been created until SR days, but I'm not totally sure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 38 minutes ago, AVS1998 said: There's the eponymous SER/SECR six-wheel carriages sandwiching a P or other such fitted locomotive, and the same company's bogie carriages rebuilt from the earlier railmotors which were used on branches and on Hastings-Rye market trains (from what I've read; please correct me if I'm wrong). The railmotors rather resemble the L&Y example, to my eye........ The railmotors were, indeed, SECR vehicles - but they were de-motored and converted for P/P use ( two sets ) or articulated ( for some reason ) twins for hauled use on Sheppey in Southern days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 They were articulated because the original steam motor units had a pivot-point onto which the coach part hitched using a pin close to the end of the coach. By using a single bogie with two pivot-points, a two-car set could be made without the need to create new bolster/pin arrangements on the coaches. Which has made me realise how like modern articulated lorries those steam railcars, and a number of early diesel railcars, were. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Nearholmer said: They were articulated because the original steam motor units had a pivot-point onto which the coach part hitched using a pin close to the end of the coach. By using a single bogie with two pivot-points, a two-car set could be made without the need to create new bolster/pin arrangements on the coaches. Which has made me realise how like modern articulated lorries those steam railcars, and a number of early diesel railcars, were. A single bogie which had to be designed from scratch with two pivot points rather than using proven technology as they did on the P/P version ............ but, yes, this has got a wee bit off pre-grouping topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) This topic covered the working priniciples of the Midland Railway's vacuum control system for motor trains: We have had sporadic discussion of how the Midland's earlier experiments evolved, from the single-car steam motor carriages, through the Lynn & Fakenham 4-4-0T plus Pullman car lash-up, to the full-on motor trains - the problem is to identify where! The first two listed used a mechanical linkage. I believe the LNWR system used vacuum control similar to the Midland System but I've not investigated the details. I believe that in LMS days locomotives and carriages of Midland, LNWR, and LMS provenance were inter-operable. (Apologies, post-Grouping.) What system did the Great Central use? Edited November 29, 2019 by Compound2632 Lynn not Lyn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) I’ve been told, but I’m not sure on what evidential basis, that the GCR used a mechanical system. Having checked, that seems correct. Of the GER Crystal Palace tank that was allocated to the ex-GC service fro Aylesbury “In 1924, No. 8307 was fitted for mechanical auto-train working.” and GCR 2-4-2T used further north also had mechanical gear “that didn’t work very well” and was replaced with vacuum gear by the LNER in the late 1930s. Edited November 29, 2019 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2019 If I may just correct a slight error, the push-pull on Buckingham worked the Verney Junction Branch, not to Leighton Buzzard. The branch is a short dead end that disappears under a bridge and is only long enough to hide the carriage and a short loco. Sometimes it works to Grandborough and back and sometimes it goes to "other" destinations (the fiddle yard). It may have worked to Leighton Buzzard in other versions of the timetable but the branch passenger trains to LB in the timetable now are the steam railmotor, a 3 coach branch set of fairly ancient carriages and the slip coach. One other correction is that according to the timetable, the loco rostered for the push pull train isn't the lovely Sacre 2-4-0T but the former LD&ECR 0-6-0T. This hits a nerve a bit every it runs as they were shunting tanks, never ran a passenger train to my knowledge and were certainly not push-pull fitted. The 2-4-0T has appeared over the years on various trains but in the current timetable it works the LB branch set. I should put it on the push-pull but Peter liked it so much and on that rain, it spends most of the time off scene. On its present duties, it is always on scene. So that is how it will stay! Here are a couple of snaps of the 2-4-0T and the Steam Railmotor. The push pull carriage seems t have escaped my camera so far but I can put that right. Perhaps I couldn't bring myself to photograph it with the dodgy loco attached! 4 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) Ah, I was going from an old photo of it at LB. Very hard keeping up with someone else’s invented reality, as well as actual reality! IRL, as the current term goes, the steam rail motors were rejected as an option for the Aylesbury-Verney service, possible because they couldn’t take a sufficient tail load. Edited November 29, 2019 by Nearholmer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted November 29, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 29, 2019 (edited) I haven't looked back at all the articles to verify things but I recall that the 12 wheel push pull trailer was quite a late edition to the Buckingham roster. There was an earlier push pull that consisted of two 6 wheeled carriages plus the 0-6-0 saddle tank. That was even less close to the real thing than the LD&ECR powered version, which at least has the right carriage! edit to add The push pull put in an appearance at Grandborough this evening so a quick snap was taken. The lettering on the loco really is that blurry! Years of handling have smudged the ink or paint used, which is not waterproof. Edited November 29, 2019 by t-b-g add photo 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Cane Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Perhaps we should go back to the beginning. According to Kinder this is the very first railmotor, built in 1847 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 16 hours ago, Nearholmer said: I’ve been told, but I’m not sure on what evidential basis, that the GCR used a mechanical system. Having checked, that seems correct. Of the GER Crystal Palace tank that was allocated to the ex-GC service fro Aylesbury “In 1924, No. 8307 was fitted for mechanical auto-train working.” and GCR 2-4-2T used further north also had mechanical gear “that didn’t work very well” and was replaced with vacuum gear by the LNER in the late 1930s. The 12AMs used a mechanical system 'utilising rods, pulleys and cables'. The F1s and C13s again had a mechanical system that included a rod mounted alongside the boiler. There's a photo of F1 5594 fitted with this gear in RCTS Vol7 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted November 30, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 30, 2019 Plenty of examples in South Wales of both steam rail motors (though called by other names) and push-pull working: Taff Vale, Barry, Rhymney, Port Talbot, ADR had examples. Lots of information in John Lewis's books "Great Western auto trailers. Part two. Post-Grouping and absorbed vehicles" and Great Western steam rail motors and their services", both Wild Swan. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) The Glasgow and South Western had 3 railmotors, designed by James Manson, numbered 1 to 3. Posed picture of #1: https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/images/f/f6/Im1963EnV216-p150c.jpg and at Catrine, the end of a short branch from Mauchline: http://www.ayrshirehistory.com/images/trains1.jpg #3 at Catrine: http://www.ayrshirehistory.com/images/trains21.jpg and with tail traffic: http://www.ayrshirehistory.com/images/rail1a.jpg Amongst other places, the G&SWR used railmotors on the CairnValley Light Railway to Moniaive. Here is #3 during its time on that service – it looks as if there's a trailing coach attached: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hughmagoo/7829909754/ This looks like the 'trailing' end of a railmotor at Moniaive: http://www.theportroad.co.uk/images/Cairn-Valley-Railway/moniaive-station/moniaive.jpg #3 was rebuilt as a small locomotive, with a separate coach. I can't find an online picture of it in this state, but there is one in David L.Smith's “Tales of the Glasgow and South Western Railway”. The Great North of Scotland had two – vertical boilered: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/GNSR_steam_railmotor_(Railway_Magazine%2C_100%2C_October_1905).jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Railway_and_locomotive_engineering_-_a_practical_journal_of_railway_motive_power_and_rolling_stock_(1906)_(14755699541).jpg/1024px-Railway_and_locomotive_engineering_-_a_practical_journal_of_railway_motive_power_and_rolling_stock_(1906)_(14755699541).jpg?1575162042056 Edited December 1, 2019 by pH To correct a link. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 1, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 1, 2019 (edited) @pH, the first and second photos, of No. 1, and the third photo, of No. 3, show the carriage portion as having a compartment carriage-like arrangement of droplights and quarterlights, although not compartment doors except at the ends - it looks like two saloons, each three "compartments" long. The fourth photo, also of No. 3, shows a similar layout of the saloons but with longer picture windows and no droplights apart from the doors. Looking carefully at the bufferbeam in the third photo, I think that's actually the top of a 1 not a 3, which would solve the puzzle. This raises the question of which style of carriage portion No. 2 had! In the Monavie photo, I'm not convinced that's the full railmotor - there's an angle between the engine and carriage and the carriage looks as if it may have a full set of doors, so I think that's your elusive photo of No. 3 as a stand-along locomotive. The GNoSR railmotors have rather elegant saloon sections but the domed cover for the vertical boiler does make them look egg-powered! (The photographer of the side-on view hasn't done it any favours when blanking out the background.) Edited December 1, 2019 by Compound2632 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted December 1, 2019 Author Share Posted December 1, 2019 The GNoSR one look as if something has gone terribly wrong and they are about to burst. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: The GNoSR one look as if something has gone terribly wrong and they are about to burst. Well, it is a boil(er)! 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 1, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 1, 2019 I asked about the LNWR motor train control system on the LNWR Society Facebook group. The consensus is that it was mechanical but that little survives in the way of information / drawings / detail photos. I'm now wondering if the LMS converted ex-LNWR motor train stock to the Midland vacuum-controlled regulator system as there seems to have been interoperability in LMS days (apologies for mentioning post-Grouping) and photographs of ex-LNWR engines with the regulator valve on the smokebox. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 10 hours ago, Compound2632 said: Looking carefully at the bufferbeam in the third photo, I think that's actually the top of a 1 not a 3, which would solve the puzzle. I agree that's a '1', and not a '3'. I did wonder when I wrote '3' - the caption of the picture didn't include the number - but I should have noticed that there wasn't a serif on the number. 10 hours ago, Compound2632 said: In the Monavie photo, I'm not convinced that's the full railmotor - there's an angle between the engine and carriage and the carriage looks as if it may have a full set of doors, so I think that's your elusive photo of No. 3 as a stand-along locomotive. This raises the question of which style of carriage portion No. 2 had! The picture in David L. Smith's book of railmotor #3 at Dumfries as a separate engine and coach shows the coach as a railmotor coach with the longer picture windows, with another bogie added. However, since the engine unit was now a separate locomotive, it's possible it could have been used to haul regular coaches. However - these railmotors were constructed almost like a horse and cart. The engine unit was held between extensions of the coach frames, and could be released by removing the front buffer beam. That has a couple of possible consequences. - Was there any other attachment of the engine to the frames, or was there enough looseness of the engine in the frames that an angle like that could happen 'naturally'? (I had wondered if there was an angle showing in that picture.) - Could the coach units be swapped between railmotors, like tenders between engines? If so, one or more of the coach units in these pictures may have formed part of railmotor #2 at some point. (There are several members of the G&SWR Association on here. Perhaps they could add information on these railmotors.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 The coach body of one of the GNoSR railmotors still exists, in very bad condition. It belongs to the Royal Deeside Railway Preservation Society, and is stored at Ferryhill in Aberdeen: http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4284 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted December 2, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 2, 2019 The Lynton & Barnstaple East Group have built superb carriages from less. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Cane Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 A couple of tables from the book The Railcar 1847-1939, by R.W. Kidner that may be of interest. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted December 4, 2019 Author Share Posted December 4, 2019 A cracking, if rather old-fashioned little book. I have on my shelf Mr Kidner's own, marked-up, copy, obtained from an RCTS library-cull sale. Do you know if there is a similar general history of PP trains? I haven't come across one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted December 6, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2019 Holcombe Brook line. The pictures below are in BR days but the same combination of Apinall 2-4-2 and railcar were used by the L&Y at the beginning of the lines life. The L&Y combination was re-introduced for the last year of operation as the previous electric infrastructure was worn out. https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/H/Holcombe_Brook/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted December 6, 2019 Share Posted December 6, 2019 On 29/11/2019 at 13:42, Nearholmer said: I think that the ex-LCDR six-wheeler (reduced to four) PP sets might not have been created until SR days, but I'm not totally sure. The 6-wheel-to-4-wheel conversion were post-grouping, I think, but I also think that there were some motor trains with ex-LCDR 6-wheeled brakes before grouping. Before the SECR started chopping up railmotors and LCDR stock, their first motor-fitted trains were ex-SER coaches, as mentioned above. I've never found out which ex-SER coaches were chosen, but c.1909 there were a lot of good, ex-main-line, 6-wheeled coaches to choose from, having been displaced by bogie stock on the long-distance trains. The ex-LCDR brakes tended to end up in close-coupled trains for the London locals, perhaps because they were lighter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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