00 Bullhead Unifrog confusion

[Foden]

I am awaiting a delivery of a few Peco 00 Bullhead points for my planned small layout, so forgive me, as I don't yet have them to look at.

 

My assumption with the 'new' Unifrog points was that there are small plastic infills at either end of a metal frog. Out of the pack, these plastic infills isolate the frog, and the point operates as a traditional Insulfrog?

 

However, I'm a DCC user, and want the maximum operational reliability from my pointwork. To that end, I believe they come pre-wired with a wire from the frog to connect to an accessory switch (a cobalt motor in my case) which switches the frog and allows it to be used as a completely live (minus the very small infills) Electrofrog?

 

I also believe that unlike the previous Code 75 Electrofrogs I LAST used, these Unifrogs come out of the pack with the stock & switch rails electrically linked, and don't use the switch blades for electrical contact powering the rail to the frog, likewise there is no 'gap' before the frog, and no wires to cut from beneath when powering the frog via an accessory switch, as the plastic infill serves this purpose?

 

Also, the plastic infill on the outer end of the frog means that a regular metal (bullhead) fishplate can be used, rather than an insulated joiner?

 

Are those four points correct? I've had the assumption that there were, but I've found a lot of conflicting info online suggesting they might not be, and now I'm confused about what work I'd have to do to the points to maximise their efficiency. With previous code 75s, I'd used an accessory switch to power the frog via the wire pre connected, joined the switch and stock rails from beneath, and cut the small tag wire from beneath the front of the frog under the 'gap' to isolate the frog from the switch rails, and use IRJs after the frog to isolate the tail end. I was expecting to not have to do any of that, bar wire the frog up as before to switch the polarity, is this still correct?

 

I was expecting this, and then soldering three pairs of track feeds to the front, and two tail ends post frog was the limit of work I'd need to do for maximum efficiency on these new designs?

(I am aware that the three feeds are not strictly necessary with conductive fishplates, but I always have feeds to every section of live track personally)

 

P.S - sorry for the over complicatedly written nature of the question!! 

[Sol]

https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Unifrog  

 

one of many websites that discusses the Unifrog

[Foden]

12 minutes ago, Sol said:

https://dccwiki.com/PECO_Unifrog  

 

one of many websites that discusses the Unifrog

 

Thankyou, that seems to confirm most of what I thought was true to begin with.

An interesting observation is that the point rails are powered, so I would only need to add droppers to the stock rails at the entracne to the point. I'm assuming underneath the point rails coming off the frog are electrically linked to the corresponding stock rail as standard?

[simon b]

Your correct on all points. 

 

The frog itself is isolated from the rest of the point, and has it's own feed wire to make it live. Because of this you dont need to use IRJ's like the old electrofrog points needed.

 

Both routes are live at all times out of the box, so ideal for dcc. The point blades are not used for conductivity, but are bonded to the stock rails.

[Yardman]

snip the wires to isolate the frog and wire as shown here.

http://a19modelrailwayclub.org/tonys-dcc-workshop/simple-pointwork-wiring-for-dcc/

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Yardman said:

snip the wires to isolate the frog and wire as shown here.

http://a19modelrailwayclub.org/tonys-dcc-workshop/simple-pointwork-wiring-for-dcc/

 

That's for wiring an electrofrog point, doesn't apply to a unifrog.

[Yardman]

Just now, simon b said:

 

That's for wiring an electrofrog point, doesn't apply to a unifrog.

Yes it does, I've wired up several.

[simon b]

59 minutes ago, Yardman said:

Yes it does, I've wired up several.

So have I. 

 

The frog is already isolated from everything else, and the point blades are not used as contacts, so why are you cutting the bonding strips?

[Yardman]

Just now, simon b said:

So have I. 

 

The frog is already isolated from everything else, and the point blades are not used as contacts, so why are you cutting the bonding strips?

The frog is dead as it comes on the New bullhead points and is fairly short. If you want to provide pickup throughout the frog area you wire the frog (there is a wire built in under the frog) to a switch connected to the throwbar. It isn't strictly necessary as the frog is so short, but for short locos is does provide un-interupted power throughout the turnout. Which is what Foden requested originally.

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Yardman said:

The frog is dead as it comes on the New bullhead points and is fairly short. If you want to provide pickup throughout the frog area you wire the frog (there is a wire built in under the frog) to a switch connected to the throwbar. It isn't strictly necessary as the frog is so short, but for short locos is does provide un-interupted power throughout the turnout. Which is what Foden requested originally.

 

You said: 

1 hour ago, Yardman said:

snip the wires to isolate the frog and wire as shown here.

 

Which as I said doesn't apply to the unifrog points, the frog is already isolated from everything else. 

 

Posting that link for electrofrog wiring will just confuse people looking for info on these points, as no wires need to be cut.

 

[simon b]

To help anyone concerned about the wiring of these points, these are the instructions included with them. 

 

You can use them as an insulfrog point straight from the box, or you can add a accessory switch to use it like an electrofrog. NO modifications to the point are needed for either use.  The only thing that needs to be clarified is that when used on a DC layout, these points do not isolate one track from the other. Both routes are live together, so to isolate a train in a siding for example, section switches will be needed for that section of track.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by simon b

[rob D2]

^^^^^^^

Im with Simon.

 

im using bullhead points with cobalt DCC point motors and prodigy DCC.

 

fantastically easy to use, no mods required...solder a bit of wire to the already installed frog wire to make it longer that goes to relevant socket in the cobalt. Off you go.....job done ....luv em.

[BoD]

As RobD2 says but I didn’t even connect the frog and have had no problems as the ‘dead’ section is so short.  Having said that, the shortest wheelbase I use is a Class 08  0-6-0 diesel shutter.

[Foden]

Cheers guys, it's as I'd thought. Trouble is, the net is full of conflicting info about these, as above really. Also plenty of naysayers, saying how it's a backward step...

 

Maybe a little premature as I'll lay my first Unifrogs next week, but I think on the face of it they're a logical step forward, not back. I get people saying there's plastic in the frog but it's so tiny is it even really visible? Even so, in my eyes it's still more pleasing on the eye than insulated rail joiners! 

[Sol]

36 minutes ago, Foden said:

 Even so, in my eyes it's still more pleasing on the eye than insulated rail joiners! 

 

Once track  is painted & ballasted, unless one gets gets down close, one normally cannot see insulated joiners  but yes Unifrog is the way to go. I use dead frogs on my layout without problems even with 0-6-0 locos.

[simon b]

There is a tiny amount of plastic in the frog, but it isnt noticeable. 

 

 

 

But once laid it becomes invisible. 

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by simon b

[dasatcopthorne]

On 03/12/2019 at 08:49, simon b said:

There is a tiny amount of plastic in the frog, but it isnt noticeable. 

 

 

But once laid it becomes invisible. 

 

 

 

Have you managed to bend these unifrog turnouts please?

 

 

[simon b]

On 04/12/2019 at 21:42, dasatcopthorne said:

 

Have you managed to bend these unifrog turnouts please?

 

 

 

Yes. I pin them to the board at one end, gently bend them to shape and pin into position.

 

It's easier to see in person, but this is a left hand one bent into a Y point.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by simon b