Bachmann 2020 Range

[brushman47544]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

No. New. Models. At this stage anyway.

 

 

I think the Thomas range couldn't have come at a better time. No need to compete with Hornby's announcements, instead concentrate on shipping an already existing product (in the USA) to lots of places that you've never delivered to before. I suspect the Boys from Barwell are going to have a busy time unloading containers for a while.

 

I hope Thomas succeeds for them, because kids toys seem to come into and go out of fashion so quickly nowadays. Is Thomas currently being shown on mainstream children's TV at the moment? Normally a good sign.

 

As someone waiting for a number of already announced reliveries of existing models still shown as TBA in Bachmann's availability list, I do hope they are not being delayed further to allow higher quantities of Thomas products to be manufactured. I certainly hope the announcement will include a realistic timescale for these models to appear, not just the new tooling stuff on which they already give updates in the Bachmann Times magazine.

Edited January 16, 2020 by brushman47544

[Billy Boy]

Hi brushman47544,

 

Thomas and Friends is shown daily on Channel 5 at around 7am.  I usually watch this, as my little terrors (aged 8 & 4) are up and about by this time.  It's a lovely start to the day to sit down and view it together.

 

We are lucky insofar as I have managed to source quite a few Bachmann Thomas products already.  As such we have a 009 layout graced by Skarloey, Rusty and Rheneas.  All are fabulous models and we are looking forward to the release of Peter Sam this year!

 

The OO gauge products are also very good but we have run into a few teething troubles concerning pulling power (James) and faulty mechanisms (Oliver).  Both are in the "Steam Works" and are waiting for Victor to work his magic............

 

I wish Bachmann every success with this particular franchise.  

 

Billy Boy

[it's-er]

As I understood it, Model Rail commissioned their lovely USA 0-6-0T from Bachmann, and have exclusive use of it for 5 years.  That 5 years must be coming up soon, so I wouldn't be surprised if Bachmann announce it within their own range for 2020.

 

John Storey

[cwam]

On 16/01/2020 at 08:21, Legend said:

 

But possibly more realistic .   I feel sorry for Bachmann . Announce new models and be met with derision that we will get them in 5 years . Announce nothing in the hope of recovering the backlog and be met with criticism for being boring .

 

Best course of action is the one they are taking , update on where they are with models already announced and maybe some exciting reliveries . The LMS Crimson  Rambler seems a good one . Then maybe give us a surprise in the year.

 

Hopefully their skin is thick enough to stand a few humourous remarks! I, for one, was always glad to know that when Bachmann announced a new item I wanted I would have at least four years to figure out how to gather the money to buy it!

 

And, with the new class 158 being such a good model, I am sure there are many (like me) who will be happy to see more liveries on it; I have been waiting for a SWT version and was *so* excited when I saw the catalogue picture for the first time, until I realised it was, of course, EMT!  I have also been waiting for the new Class 117 in BR Blue-Grey which is coming this year. With the Cavalex 225 project and Accurascale seemingly having a direct line to my model rail wishlist, I will be glad if I get another "quiet" year from Bachmann! I fully expect a revamped Voyager to the same standard as the new Cl58's  in VXC, AXC and AWC liveries but I don't want them for another couple of years!

 

Colin.

Edited January 18, 2020 by cwam
Class 158 not Class 58!

[TomScrut]

TBH there are plenty of things I'd buy from them if they did a re run. I'd have a Colas 70 for a start.

[Bob83a]

Just received a copy of the Bachmann Combined Edition 2020, nothing new in it that I can seen, but the enclosed letter indicates that Collectors Club members will receive a new product brochure every three months highlighting new items to be released in the following 3 months. So clearly Bachmann have changed the way things are announced and there will be no mass announcement from now on. By only announcing the new items for the next three months the issue of items not being delivered for several years will be a thing of the past.

[brushman47544]

1 hour ago, Bob83a said:

Just received a copy of the Bachmann Combined Edition 2020, nothing new in it that I can seen, but the enclosed letter indicates that Collectors Club members will receive a new product brochure every three months highlighting new items to be released in the following 3 months. So clearly Bachmann have changed the way things are announced and there will be no mass announcement from now on. By only announcing the new items for the next three months the issue of items not being delivered for several years will be a thing of the past.

Interesting thanks. Presumably this Bachmann Combined Edition 2020 is the equivalent to the catalogue? I’m certainly happy with the idea of a brochure with new items to be released in the next three months, which hopefully will not replace the new product updates in the Collector Club magazine. But I do have an issue about what Bachmann means with the word “new”. In the Club magazine they give updates on “new” products, which in that context means new tooling. So by using “new” in “highlighting new items to be released in the following three months” do they mean the same thing, or does it include reliveries etc. using existing tooling? The word “new” is redundant in their description if they mean everything. 
 

Apologies for the linguistic rant, but “new” tooling models is a small part of what is in the catalogue and regular updates on the rest is for me at least equally important.

[TomScrut]

Yes exactly. I aren't that bothered about new tooling as if they announce something it won't be here for ages anyway and then in terms of what I am interested in (modern day in the North) there isn't that much actually left to tool.

 

But new liveries on the 158, the aforementioned Colas class 70, new liveries on the 90 and I'm sure one or two other things would be of interest.

[The Johnster]

When Bachmann (or Hornby) announce a model that has been retooled they are usually keen to state that it is a new tooling, because obviously this sounds good to prospective customers and enables them to justify a sneaked in price rise.  So one can be pretty certain that 'new tooling' means new tooling, and that any newly tooled product will be described in this way.  The logical progression of this is that 'new'. without the word 'tooling' appended, means a re-livery or possibly a re-issue; Hornby's 'shorty' clerestories and Lord of the Isles re-issued last year were described as 'new' in the online catalogue.  Brushman's right; there seem to be several shades of definition applied to the word 'new'.

 

I am less sure about what 'available to pre-order' and the like means.  A model that the company is considering and hasn't yet done the initial research for might be described as available to pre-order; doesn't even mean it'll even ever get made!  But there is an implicit suggestion that the model is 'coming soon'; how accurate is this in actuality?  'In stock' or 'currently available' is a bit more specific, and generally means what it says, but 'out of stock' is another uncertain concept.  We can assume that the model cannot be supplied because there are no stocks of it, but there is again an implicit suggestion that more will be being built in the near future to replenish stocks, again, a bit of a leap of faith when we know that production windows in Chinese factories need to be booked considerably in advance and a successful attempt to book one is by no means guaranteed.

 

Even Bachmann UK, a subsidiary of Kader which owns it's own Chinese facilities, has to compete in this way for production slots with Kader's other subsidiaries.  My view, recently expressed in the discussion on the Hornby Prairie topic, is that customer trust in companies is very dependent on openness and honesty about availability dates, and delays to them, subject to the reasonable need of the company to keep information to itself in a competitive world.  I find the idea that companies are using availability dates they fully well know are unrealistic to dissuade or manipulate competitors (I'm not saying there is any actual evidence of this, just unproven suspicion in the minds of cynical old gits like Johnster) to be tantamount to mendacity, and I would be re-assured by a bit more openness, as an indication of respect for customers rather than an undercurrent of contempt for us.

[mdvle]

6 hours ago, TomScrut said:

Yes exactly. I aren't that bothered about new tooling as if they announce something it won't be here for ages anyway and then in terms of what I am interested in (modern day in the North) there isn't that much actually left to tool.

 

My reading of what Andy Y stated was that one of the reasons for nothing being announced next month is that Bachmann is ending their current practice of announcing things years in advance.

 

Thus when we next get a Bachmann announcement of a new tooled item (whether it be later this year or next year) it will be further along in the production pipeline, perhaps at the EP sample stage (which is where for example a number of North American companies now like to announce product) or even later.  This means you can expect the product usually within about 12 months or less.

 

It also sounds like, for the news about the collectors newsletter, that going forward they will only be announcing additional runs of product once they are in production or on a boat (the "released in the following 3 months").

 

(I hope they don't apply the 3 month window to new tooled items - I would prefer more advance notice so Bachmann can get a better idea of production quantity to order for a first release so we (and retailers) don't risk a short supply, and Bachmann doesn't risk having far too much in the warehouse).

[TomScrut]

The thing is, if they announce stuff years in advance then as long as they are reasonably realistic I wouldn't be that bothered. Whilst I had an argument on the Hattons class 66 page about there not being a lot of point in manufacturer's dates being well estimated and always better off on the optimistic side, a 4 year delay would just mean I would be less likely to order in advance next time (which we in is what they want us to do). If they say "look, don't expect to see this anytime soon" then we know it's coming and can look forward to it. It also lets the competition know what's going on which can work both ways I think.

 

Yes it can give the competition a heads up and let them react (I wonder if Hornby would be doing the 91 if they didn't know about the Cavalex one?), especially if they can get to market sooner, but can also be a foot in the door, how many classes have a big enough market to justify multiple manufacturers having tooling of a similar standard? Even if somebody tried to get in before them there would be people wait to see what both were like and therefore risky nonetheless.

 

A bit OT but it will be interesting to see how the 91s play out as it could be painful for one or both companies I think, the 91 is a bit niche for 2 versions I would say. Cavalex have the advantage of having announced the coaches and DVT whereas Hornby can probably allow the 91 to be a loser just to try and do damage to upcoming competition. If they hit the Cavalex one hard enough to stop the run being viable then it will go a long way to making their non-crowd funded one work.

[ThaneofFife]

id think most after a RTR detailed 91 would want the matching coaches and DVT not a new tooled Hornby one running with 30 year old stock.   Personally I dont think the Hornby 91 will do much damage to Cavalex sales.  you could argue some might run the Hornby version with cavalex coaches but here you run the risk of livery mismatches......certainly if I was in the market for a 91 rake id want the complete matching set.  plus Hornby seem to favour their 8 pin DCC set up where Cavalex will accommodate for far more features.

[ThaneofFife]

that is said on the basis of the 91 as announced ie just the loco.   yes coaches and DVT could be sprung on people later this year but how longs apiece of string....

[shunny]

14 hours ago, Bob83a said:

Just received a copy of the Bachmann Combined Edition 2020, nothing new in it that I can seen, but the enclosed letter indicates that Collectors Club members will receive a new product brochure every three months highlighting new items to be released in the following 3 months. So clearly Bachmann have changed the way things are announced and there will be no mass announcement from now on. By only announcing the new items for the next three months the issue of items not being delivered for several years will be a thing of the past.

It takes me back to my youth when I would eagerly check the Lima advert in magazines for the new releases which would be due shortly in the shops. 

[TomScrut]

7 minutes ago, ThaneofFife said:

id think most after a RTR detailed 91 would want the matching coaches and DVT not a new tooled Hornby one running with 30 year old stock.   Personally I dont think the Hornby 91 will do much damage to Cavalex sales.  you could argue some might run the Hornby version with cavalex coaches but here you run the risk of livery mismatches......certainly if I was in the market for a 91 rake id want the complete matching set.  plus Hornby seem to favour their 8 pin DCC set up where Cavalex will accommodate for far more features.

 

Yes, it just depends on how fine the line is between demand and viability for the Cavalex one I would think? Might not take much to tip it off balance.

 

And as you say Hornby haven't played their hand on the mk4s. Some may prefer existing tooling with simply improving the DVT (to keep the costs down), some may want a from the ground up renewal which would mean a full rake would be well in excess of £600 I'd expect before adding sound?

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, shunny said:

It takes me back to my youth when I would eagerly check the Lima advert in magazines for the new releases which would be due shortly in the shops. 

 

And then go down the shop every weekend and ask

"Is it here yet?"

[Steamport Southport]

On 16/01/2020 at 11:17, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

No catalogue with a V2 in it can ever be dull. Bachmann have already said this is their lead release for 2020 and if they deliver on that this drysider is made up. (Have the Thompson coaches in maroon out as well, joy unbounded.)

 

I'm still waiting for my Lima one.....    

 

Delays and pre-ordering isn't new. I remember having to order things from Hattons back in the day, where he would write the order in his ledger and you would get a handwritten note with a Hattons handstamp on it. I definitely remember a panic when the Mainline Dean Goods came out as it was very close to Christmas when it did appear.

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

There has always been duplication, the result of different companies' market researchers coming up with the same suggestions by asking us what we want.  It is not a good thing, but an inevitable consequence of a competitive market, and the alternative would be market manipulation, or rigging, much worse and a matter for the monopolies commission whatever they call themselves these days.

 

Back in the day, when the big players were Triang and Hornby Dublo, both duplicated each others' protoypes; Stanier coaches, mk1s, goods and minerals, operating TPO systems and so on.  But this was not thought of as duplication as each company's products were considered part of a system, complete within itself down to accessories and incompatible with the other; Dublo duplicated everything in-house for 2- or 3-rail, probably a factor in the cost spiral that brought them down.  2-rail stock could of course run happily on 3-rail layouts, but not the other way around, and all loco had to be duplicated.  I wonder how many modellers of this era cut their teenage teeth on converting 3-rail mechs to 2-rail with Romford wheels; couple of my mates certainly did, not always successfully!

 

Hornby have proved that they are extremely aggressive in this competitive environment; we all remember the tv spat between SK and Rails about the Terrier.  SK stated that the loco was a historic Hornby product, implying that it was 'his' by right.  I'd call this arrogant, and not even that accurate since H inherited it from Dapol.  I assume, perhaps naively, that he'd got at least un understanding from the board that the loco could be a loss leader specifically to scupper the Rails effort; it is one of the factors in the delay to the 5101 and perhaps other H projects.  It's bully boy tactics of course, but acceptable red in toof and clore business tactics.  Bachmann seem to do things differently, but their culture is different and early announcements of intended models may well be similar manipulation and aggression behind the scenes.

 

I would also find it acceptable for B to announce a model for specified delivery in 5 or 6 years time, but doubt this will happen, and I'm not sure I'd trust them to keep to the delivery date anyway given their known past proclivities in this regard...

Edited January 19, 2020 by The Johnster

[AY Mod]

14 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

it is one of the factors in the delay to the 5101

 

It isn't, but I won't tell you why.

[TomScrut]

15 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There has always been duplication, the result of different companies' market researchers coming up with the same suggestions by asking us what we want.  It is not a good thing, but an inevitable consequence of a competitive market, and the alternative would be market manipulation, or rigging, much worse and a matter for the monopolies commission whatever they call themselves these days.

 

Yes I agree, it is more that if a company says they are doing a product there is a situation where another company looking at the same product has a decision to make. Do they a) continue and beat the other one to the market b) continue and not beat the other one to the market or c) cut their losses and pull out. 

 

I'd be interested to know which is more common! I would imagine it depends on the companies involved.

[The Johnster]

10 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

It isn't, but I won't tell you why.

There isn't a button for 'information intriguing rather than useful' Andy.  You are entitled to privacy in terms of your state of knowningness on the subject, so I won't ask why, and keep my guesses to myself for now...

[The Johnster]

It also, I imagine, depends on the state of progress the project has reached, the further advanced equating to the more likely that the company will continue with it and recoup some of the money they've already put in.  Hanging on to a production slot in China may be worth a loss if it upsets an opportunity for the competition, enabling you to beat him to market and tap any reservoir of demand for that prototype.

 

The upcoming head to head between Dap and H over prairies is going to be good spectator sport.  Dap have, apparently (we do not know the details which is what makes it fun) deferred their 5101 in favour of the mogul, possibly (again, we do not know) in order to allow the Hornby 5101 to tap that market and then release theirs to cash in on scarcity of that version after the initial run sells out.  Now, there is a question mark over the arrival of the Hornby (Andy didn't affirm that there was no delay in his recent response to me, which may or may not be significant or insignificant), Dap are well advanced with the mogul, and there might be an opening for them to get their prairie in first and take money that would otherwise have gone to H.

 

Froth and secondguessing is fun, but not any indication of when models are going to turn up or where, or who, from.

[rogerzilla]

On 16/01/2020 at 21:51, it's-er said:

As I understood it, Model Rail commissioned their lovely USA 0-6-0T from Bachmann, and have exclusive use of it for 5 years.  That 5 years must be coming up soon, so I wouldn't be surprised if Bachmann announce it within their own range for 2020.

 

John Storey

 

I ummed and ahhed about the USA until the one I would have bought (SR black) was sold out, so amen to this.

[Mark201]

I do find this debate about product announcements most interesting - to announce or not announce, that is the question! It's a tough one to call and so difficult to get right.

 

For me, I am happy for Bachmann not to announce so much this year and hold announcements off until a model is further down the production line. 

 

I am minded to the 'announcement' of the 2-HAP. Announced in 2016 to coincide with the celebrations of 30 years since the start of operations of Network South East. Clearly 4 years on and still no model, one could assume that the model was at the very early stages of development when the announcement was made. I note that in the Winter issue of Bachmann Times  the model is listed as 'In Production' in the OO Scale Works Report, but not included on the Bachmann 'Coming Soon' flyer I picked up at Warley which lists up to March 2020 for OO. I don't realistically expect to see the 2-HAP until the summer 2020. 

 

Given the suggested move by Bachmann to hold off announcements until a model is further down the production line, the 2 HAP would not have been announced until the middle  of last year, somewhat missing the NSE celebrations by 3 years. Surely if Bachmann wanted to be part of the NSE celebrations then development of the 2-HAP should have started way sooner in 2011/12, they did have 30 years notice.

 

All that said, I am sure it will be a fine model when it arrives.

 

Mark

 

[truffy]

16 minutes ago, Mark201 said:

I am minded to the 'announcement' of the 2-HAP. Announced in 2016 to coincide with the celebrations of 30 years since the start of operations of Network South East. Clearly 4 years on and still no model, one could assume that the model was at the very early stages of development when the announcement was made. I note that in the Winter issue of Bachmann Times  the model is listed as 'In Production' in the OO Scale Works Report, but not included on the Bachmann 'Coming Soon' flyer I picked up at Warley which lists up to March 2020 for OO. I don't realistically expect to see the 2-HAP until the summer 2020. 

 

Given the suggested move by Bachmann to hold off announcements until a model is further down the production line, the 2 HAP would not have been announced until the middle  of last year, somewhat missing the NSE celebrations by 3 years. Surely if Bachmann wanted to be part of the NSE celebrations then development of the 2-HAP should have started way sooner in 2011/12, they did have 30 years notice.

 

Be of good cheer, it's apparently on the roadmap for a July release:

But don't crack the champagne just yet!