Bachmann 2020 Range

[Melangoose]

Having seen how good the new Bachmann 158 is, I would hope they would capitalise on this and maybe produce a Trains for Wales and a Southwestern Railway 158’s. But saying that, it would put my modelling funds under pressure.

[adb968008]

give the new 3 month lead time, i’m thinking I should buy one of these and add a feed to Bachmanns coming soon page.
 

https://ukdepartureboards.co.uk/store/product/desktop-departures/

[cwam]

Well, I don't mind delaying announcements until they are within a 12-18 month period from the items being in the shops, and I get that means there have to be some years with no announcements about any newly tooled items. Three years from now it won't be an issue anyway since they will have "caught up" - what is three years in this hobby? In any given year there are usually so many more models than I can afford to buy I am still scrounging around on eBay hoping to find models that were first released way longer than three years ago - I only just purchased the last in my rake of Mk1 grey-blue Pullman coaches last week!

 

I did think, though, that they should be able to announce in the catalogue any planned new liveries for existing items such as, say, the class 158 and I see no point in buying a catalogue which has no new content compared with last year's catalogue - or am I getting that bit wrong?  Might there be products that have been announced *since* last year's catalogue so they will be in this years but not in last years? I'm unlcear about that.

 

It's a bit disappointing - I have a Bachmann and Hornby catalogue for every year since I started this hobby - back in 1999; I much prefer paper copies than browsing online (and it is not that I am a technophobe - I used to be a computer programmer and still use the things several hours a day!) but I don't collect the catalogues just to collect them so, as I say, it looks like I won't be buying one this year!

 

Although, maybe I could use the fact that it includes other gauges as the excuse....I might just be a collector after all, but in denial!

 

 

 

 

[cwam]

6 hours ago, Melangoose said:

Having seen how good the new Bachmann 158 is, I would hope they would capitalise on this and maybe produce a Trains for Wales and a Southwestern Railway 158’s. But saying that, it would put my modelling funds under pressure.

 

I agree - I am half tempted to buy one even though it doesn't fit in my era!  But I am sure they will release new liveries on this model, it would be crazy not to; we just might not know about them very far in advance this year!

 

BTW, I always meant to ask someone - what is the difference between a class 158 and class 159?  Many years back I had (briefly) the old Alphaline Wessex Trains Class 158 and the SWT Class 159 but apart from the extra coach in the SWT one, I couldn't see any difference!

[TravisM]

37 minutes ago, cwam said:

BTW, I always meant to ask someone - what is the difference between a class 158 and class 159?  Many years back I had (briefly) the old Alphaline Wessex Trains Class 158 and the SWT Class 159 but apart from the extra coach in the SWT one, I couldn't see any difference!

Body shell wise, very little though the windows with openings on might have been in slightly different places.   They were built as Class 158’s and converted into Class 159’s at Rosyth, so I think the main differences are mainly internal.

[The Johnster]

Time was the publication of this year's catalogue was a major event, which has been replaced in the internet age by 'announcement day'.  I no longer bother with paper catalogues, because I can access the information free online, and to a limited extent track the progress of new items as well.  It has been a few weeks, certainly before xmas, since I checked Bachmann's site but I have done so today.  I notice that my much delayed 94xx now has pictures of the model instead of the prototype, which would indicate progress even if we had not seen the prototypes, but I also note that the loco is described as 'out of stock', which is a bit odd because AFAIK it has never been in stock anyway, so how can it be out of stock already!

 

A trawl through the steam locos showed 76 items listed, of which 33 are in stock, less than half.  Out of stock seems to be Bachmannese for:-

 

'Well, all we can tell you is that we haven't got any in the warehouse in Barwell at the moment, irrespective of whether we are vaguely expecting some at some unfixed date in the future depending on the whims of Chinese producers, assemblers, and packers, shipping delays, and distribution problems, all out of our remit of direct control and impossible to call accurately, or have had them in and sent them all out.  You can only tell when we've got stuff in stock because we say so.  In fact, unless we state that we have a model in stock, it could refer to anything eles anywhere at any point along the space/time continuum'.

 

So, the situation regarding the availability of models in the future has improved and worsened at the same time, sort of Shroedinger's availability.  They've stopped the practice of using prototype photos and the models photographed have at least been in some form of existence as models to have been photographed, so if we haven't seen them before we know they are going to show up sometime or other somewhere or other somehow or other; this is an improvement!

 

But we don't know what 'out of stock' indicates in any meaningful way.  Have the models been re-ordered in the case of stuff that has run out, and are expected in the future?  Or is there a merely a vague intention to have another production run one day?  My suspicion is that Barwell doesn't know, and are doing their best blundering around in the same fog as the rest of us.  But I for one would appreciate a differential other than between in and out of stock; Hornby have 3 categories, 'available to pre-order', 'in stock', and 'out of stock', which is of course much more informative even if it still doesn't indicate whether or not out of stock items are ever going to be re-ordered.  One assumes they are because they are still listed, but the time it takes to organise a re-run means that such assumptions are wobbly at best...

[cwam]

34 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

Body shell wise, very little though the windows with openings on might have been in slightly different places.   They were built as Class 158’s and converted into Class 159’s at Rosyth, so I think the main differences are mainly internal.

Thanks for that, I always wanted to know!

 

26 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

...

 

A trawl through the steam locos showed 76 items listed, of which 33 are in stock, less than half.  Out of stock seems to be Bachmannese for:-

 

'Well, all we can tell you is that we haven't got any in the warehouse in Barwell at the moment, irrespective of whether we are vaguely expecting some at some unfixed date in the future depending on the whims of Chinese producers, assemblers, and packers, shipping delays, and distribution problems, all out of our remit of direct control and impossible to call accurately, or have had them in and sent them all out.  You can only tell when we've got stuff in stock because we say so.  In fact, unless we state that we have a model in stock, it could refer to anything eles anywhere at any point along the space/time continuum'.

 

...

 

Yeah, they really need to have a category called "Planned Future Release" or some such to distinguish between items that have actually sold out and items that haven't even been made yet.

 

As for "Shroedinger's availability" - LOL - nice one!

[Stefen1988]

They could give ther "Stock" Category following Conditions:

 

In Stock

In Stock from Month/2020

Ask Dealer

Out of Stock

No longer Available

[tomparryharry]

Honestly, I'd think Mr Parker of this parish has hit the nail on the head rather accurately.

 

Why bother selling high-fidelity models, at a profit mark up, when you can sell a different style of models, at a higher profit mark up? It's a bit sad, perhaps, but pragmatic. Why charge similar prices for a smaller market, when you can have larger profits from a much larger market? 

 

I can't blame Bachmann, because I'd do exactly the same, given the situation. Semi-serious (or serious) modellers won't buy Thomas stuff, but Grandad & Grandma will.... And that, ladies & Gentlemen, is why new Bachmann releases will be thin on the ground. The situation will remain that way, until the next great fad comes into view. The much-vaunted 94xx, despite its quality & fidelity, is just a fill-in job, because the sheer volumes don't stack up against the desirability of Thomas product. You might get it, but only when a space exists to 'squeeze it in'.

 

Good luck to both Bachmann & Hornby: They have  businesses  to run. The market forces are in play, and the spending power of the 'silver set' far outweighs anything we can possibly imagine. Bachmann have timed this shift in the market impeccably, with a whole generation of eager 'wanters' ..... "Grandad, can I have a James for Christmas?" You know the outcome already....

 

May I take this opportunity to wish you a Happy Christmas for 2020. If you think you will see anything from the 2 biggest players, well....... 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[Steamport Southport]

I think people are overlooking the announcement in February which coincides with the next magazine dropping on some of our doormats.,,,

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

I must retract my comment about not using prototype photos for items nowhere near being produced yet; they are still doing this.   BR ‘vanwide’; prototype photo and ‘not in stock’.   There is a giveaway in the £0.00 price, I suppose.  

[Ozexpatriate]

On 21/01/2020 at 21:48, Stefen1988 said:

New Catalogue

Mine arrived here in the colonies today!

 

I must say I am very impressed with Bachmann getting this out to their remote Collectors' Club members so promptly - only two days after it is being discussed here on RMweb.

 

Does anyone know if there is anything in it that was not previously announced? (I'm not expecting a comprehensive list, just a notion of whether there is anything in it all that is not in a prior catalogue - Thomas and Friends excepted.)

[mdvle]

9 hours ago, cwam said:

I did think, though, that they should be able to announce in the catalogue any planned new liveries for existing items such as, say, the class 158

 

Except, per the newsletter posted, any new liveries / repeats won't be announced until the model is within 3 months of arriving in the UK.

 

So (it appears) Bachmann will be making announcements and/or updates 4 times a year now.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/149669-Bachmann-2020-range/&do=findComment&comment=3810322

[mdvle]

7 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Why bother selling high-fidelity models, at a profit mark up, when you can sell a different style of models, at a higher profit mark up? It's a bit sad, perhaps, but pragmatic. Why charge similar prices for a smaller market, when you can have larger profits from a much larger market? 

 

Thomas will likely be popular, but not that popular.  Bachmann still needs all the other UK models like the 94xx to keep generating revenue to say in business.

 

 

[tomparryharry]

1 minute ago, mdvle said:

 

Thomas will likely be popular, but not that popular.  Bachmann still needs all the other UK models like the 94xx to keep generating revenue to say in business.

 

 

 

You could be completely right, but we shall see. 

[The Johnster]

I can't see Bachmann or anybody else skimping on the standards of detail or scale fidelity that are important to their company image and reputation; I believe these will continue to improve to justify price increases and will certainly not diminish.  Internal engine room detail in diesels and between the frame detail on steam locos will, I predict, become the norm; realism, scale, and detail of RTR products  have been steadily improving for the last 4 decades and more, and there is, IMHO, no reason to think this will not continue.  What I reckon will happen is that Baccy will do something on the lines of Hornby's Railroad to exploit the higher margins and attract a market not willing to spend the cash for 'hi fi' full fat models, but using a different brand name and perhaps marketing through chain stores and toy shops.

 

Unlike Railroad, which uses amortised low fi toolings that do not cut the full fat mustard in the current market, and has not been as successful as I think it could have been for H because the line between this range and the full fat current issues is a bit blurry in terms of price, particularly for large steam locos, I'd expect Bachmann to release newly tooled models for this sort of market.  

 

But my crystal ball has not proved especially reliable in the past and there's no reason to assume it will be now!

[rob D2]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I can't see Bachmann or anybody else skimping on the standards of detail or scale fidelity that are important to their company image and reputation; I believe these will continue to improve to justify price increases and will certainly not diminish.  Internal engine room detail in diesels and between the frame detail on steam locos will, I predict, become the norm; realism, scale, and detail of RTR products  have been steadily improving for the last 4 decades and more, and there is, IMHO, no reason to think this will not continue.  What I reckon will happen is that Baccy will do something on the lines of Hornby's Railroad to exploit the higher margins and attract a market not willing to spend the cash for 'hi fi' full fat models, but using a different brand name and perhaps marketing through chain stores and toy shops.

 

Unlike Railroad, which uses amortised low fi toolings that do not cut the full fat mustard in the current market, and has not been as successful as I think it could have been for H because the line between this range and the full fat current issues is a bit blurry in terms of price, particularly for large steam locos, I'd expect Bachmann to release newly tooled models for this sort of market.  

 

But my crystal ball has not proved especially reliable in the past and there's no reason to assume it will be now!

I’m not convinced....Hornby had a ready made range in the Lima stuff and it appears to have worked for them, with the numerous 66s they are chucking out at half the price of a super detail hattons one.

Bachmann haven’t and so when they are looking at retooling standard stuff like a 47, I can’t see them having the time to do a railroad version as well as upgrade their existing range to keep up

[cwam]

16 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Except, per the newsletter posted, any new liveries / repeats won't be announced until the model is within 3 months of arriving in the UK.

 

So (it appears) Bachmann will be making announcements and/or updates 4 times a year now.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/149669-Bachmann-2020-range/&do=findComment&comment=3810322

 

Yes, but that was what I meant - sorry for not being clear - I think announcing re-liveries three only months ahead is a mistake.  People do need time to budget and plan for purchases, especially as prices increase to reflect the ever higher quality of the models.  Surely their production process should be reliable enough that they can announce reruns and new liveries with reasonable confidence that they will arrive within a 12 - 18 month period?

 

But then, maybe it is an interim measure so we will see how it pans out.

 

17 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I’m not convinced....Hornby had a ready made range in the Lima stuff and it appears to have worked for them, with the numerous 66s they are chucking out at half the price of a super detail hattons one.

Bachmann haven’t and so when they are looking at retooling standard stuff like a 47, I can’t see them having the time to do a railroad version as well as upgrade their existing range to keep up

 

Maybe they could just keep the old tooling each time they revamp a model and use that? Take the Class 220/1 or the Class 170s - they are a reasonably good model it is just that they are not DCC friendly. But people are still buying them on eBay. Even the old tooling class 158's are selling reasonably well.  Give it a few years of introducing nice newly high-spec models and then, when you have enough of the older stuff to offer even a handful of items, introduce a new budget range.

 

It does occur to me, though, that Bachmann seem to have made a choice to aim for the high spec high cost market - when you release a coach that has an RRP of just under £85 (the new Mark 2F) so that to make a rake of six plus a loco you are looking at £680 RRP (inc. £170 RRP for current Virgin Class 47 loco), well, you are not aiming at kids and first time model railers! Even with a 10% discount that is still over £600. There cannot be anyone at Bachmann who would think that item would sell to the general market - they could not be as out of touch as that!

 

Hornby, by contrast, have always had a keen eye on the kids and beginners; presumably the strategy being, in part, to keep newcomers coming into the hobby and thus ensure a market in the future, and partly because the models are cheaper to make and easier to make a profit from.  People are sometimes critical of Hornby's "trainset" approach but I, for one, am glad that I will be able to get a six-coach Pendolino in AWC colours for just over £300.

 

Meanwhile I am still scratching my head and wondering how I will ever afford that Virgin XC train! It won't be by buying Bachmann coaches, that's for sure! I am likely only to get the Bachmann RFB because Hornby don't have one in their Mark 2F range.

[JSpencer]

9 minutes ago, cwam said:

 

It does occur to me, though, that Bachmann seem to have made a choice to aim for the high spec high cost market - when you release a coach that has an RRP of just under £85 (the new Mark 2F) so that to make a rake of six plus a loco you are looking at £680 RRP (inc. £170 RRP for current Virgin Class 47 loco), well, you are not aiming at kids and first time model railers! Even with a 10% discount that is still over £600. There cannot be anyone at Bachmann who would think that item would sell to the general market - they could not be as out of touch as that!

 

Hornby, by contrast, have always had a keen eye on the kids and beginners; presumably the strategy being, in part, to keep newcomers coming into the hobby and thus ensure a market in the future, and partly because the models are cheaper to make and easier to make a profit from.  People are sometimes critical of Hornby's "trainset" approach but I, for one, am glad that I will be able to get a six-coach Pendolino in AWC colours for just over £300.

 

Of all the marketing surveys I have ever seen for model railways, there is not one aimed at finding a price point/quality balance. Aga, scale, amount you earn and spend, what models are covered but price point/quality is missed. They are easy enough to write, for price point you can ask at what would you consider it cheap as to be untrue? Cheap but correct? the upper amount you are prepared to pay? and the point you consider it too expensive? From such data you can find the price bracket that your product should be aimed for. If its out of reach, you don't bother. This avoids having products that don't sell. Or products you are selling too cheaply.

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, JSpencer said:

 

Of all the marketing surveys I have ever seen for model railways, there is not one aimed at finding a price point/quality balance. Aga, scale, amount you earn and spend, what models are covered but price point/quality is missed. They are easy enough to write, for price point you can ask at what would you consider it cheap as to be untrue? Cheap but correct? the upper amount you are prepared to pay? and the point you consider it too expensive? From such data you can find the price bracket that your product should be aimed for. If its out of reach, you don't bother. This avoids having products that don't sell. Or products you are selling too cheaply.

 

One of the first rules of usability on the web is to ignore what people say they want and watch what they actually do. If you ask any question about price, the answer will universally be "cheaper". Maybe a couple of people will give the matter serious consideration, but most will just cry "less".

 

I'd say there were too many variables - which product, loco, wagon or coach for a start. I might be willing to spend more on a detailed loco than a detailed coach.

This sort of thing is easier to work out looking at sales figures. At least the numbers don't lie.

[mdvle]

29 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Of all the marketing surveys I have ever seen for model railways, there is not one aimed at finding a price point/quality balance. Aga, scale, amount you earn and spend, what models are covered but price point/quality is missed. They are easy enough to write, for price point you can ask at what would you consider it cheap as to be untrue? Cheap but correct? the upper amount you are prepared to pay? and the point you consider it too expensive? From such data you can find the price bracket that your product should be aimed for. If its out of reach, you don't bother. This avoids having products that don't sell. Or products you are selling too cheaply.

 

Not a proper marketing survey, but 3 years ago another user created a poll on RMweb regarding the GWR Toplights and what people would expect in a RTR model.

 

Given the complexities of even attempting a RTR model this would be an expensive model, and at the time of the poll the Bachmann Mk2f was already at a RRP of £55 and other coaches were at a similar price point.

 

Yet 42% of respondents (140 people voted) expected a model at under £50, and a further 30% would only go up to £60.

 

So a full 70% expected a complicated model with limited appeal to come in at a price equivalent to the far simpler and more popular Mk2f.  So yes, a survey about pricing is as stated by Phil unlikely to generate any valid data.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118689-gwr-toplights-poll/

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by mdvle

[brushman47544]

38 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

One of the first rules of usability on the web is to ignore what people say they want and watch what they actually do. If you ask any question about price, the answer will universally be "cheaper". Maybe a couple of people will give the matter serious consideration, but most will just cry "less".

 

I'd say there were too many variables - which product, loco, wagon or coach for a start. I might be willing to spend more on a detailed loco than a detailed coach.

This sort of thing is easier to work out looking at sales figures. At least the numbers don't lie.

The problem with sales figures on their own is just that; they tell you how your product has sold. What is more difficult is establishing how many more or less you would have sold if the price was £ higher or lower. Then try and factor in higher or lower fidelity!

 

A single survey that could obtain sales information for, for example, Hornby, Bachmann and Hatton’s Class 66s knowing their different pricing would I’m sure be useful to all manufacturers. If an independent organisation (such as the Double O Gauge Association) was entrusted with sales data solely for the purposes of analysis, that might be a starting point.

[MarkSG]

45 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

Of all the marketing surveys I have ever seen for model railways, there is not one aimed at finding a price point/quality balance. Aga, scale, amount you earn and spend, what models are covered but price point/quality is missed. They are easy enough to write, for price point you can ask at what would you consider it cheap as to be untrue? Cheap but correct? the upper amount you are prepared to pay? and the point you consider it too expensive? From such data you can find the price bracket that your product should be aimed for. If its out of reach, you don't bother. This avoids having products that don't sell. Or products you are selling too cheaply.

 

There's very little to be learned by asking people what price they are prepared to pay, at least for a product that forms part of an established range of products (such as model railways).

 

There are two main reasons. Firstly, whatever you charge, it has to be profitable, because if it isn't there's no point making the product in the first place. For any product, the cheapest you can sell it for is determined by the costs involved in making and marketing it. And you, as the producer, are the only person in a position to answer that question.

 

Secondly, for any product that is part of an established market, you have real sales historic figures to go by. You don't need to ask people what they will pay, because you already know what they will pay. The only time this becomes an issue at all is if your own costs are rising faster than inflation, and you have to decide whether you will be OK with raising your own prices in line with your costs or if you need to hold price rises down to RPI levels even at the cost of reduced margin. But even then, previous customer behaviour is a better predictor than customer opinion.

 

Also, you have to bear in mind that the optimal pricing strategy is not one which results in the largest volume of sales, it's the one which results in the highest overall profits. Sometimes, that does mean piling 'em high and selling 'em cheap. But, more often, it's more profitable to sell fewer at a higher price than to sell more at a lower price. And an optimal pricing strategy can often include multiple price points, with end-of-run discounting built into the forecasts. The average consumer has little to no understanding of how all this works, so their opinion on an ideal price is not, by any means, an informed one.

 

The one occasion when customer opinion on price can be useful is when you're thinking of launching an entirely new product that has no counterpart in anything you, or anyone else, has ever produced in the past. In that case, asking "how much would you pay for...?" can be a valuable data point. But even then, it's generally accepted that you add at least 50% to the average of what you are told, because consumers almost always underestimate their willingness to pay.  Or, rather, the ones who are actually likely to buy it will underestimate their willingness to pay, and the opinions of those who won't buy it are of no value to you.

 

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

The problem with sales figures on their own is just that; they tell you how your product has sold. What is more difficult is establishing how many more or less you would have sold if the price was £ higher or lower. Then try and factor in higher or lower fidelity!

 

Your sales figures will cover a lot of historical data, though, There's a huge amount you can extract from that, particularly when you have products in the same category but at different price points, or when you've had different prices for the same product (eg, end-of-run discounts).

 

Product pricing is both an art and a science. The mathematics of it are complex, and are the subject of many lengthy research papers! Someone who doesn't understand concepts such as consumer and producer surplus, deadweight loss, the rule of one-half, supply and demand curve, etc will not be in a position to accurately calculate the theoretical optimal price. But, equally, someone without an understanding of the market in which the product will be sold will not be in a position to accurately estimate the offset from the theoretical optimum that the market will actually support. To be good at pricing, you need to know the maths and know your customers. And knowing your customers is far more about knowing their behaviour than it is about knowing their opinions.

 

A failed pricing strategy, caused by lack of knowledge in one or both of these areas, is one of the biggest causes of business failures. That's particularly so for new businesses run by inexperienced owners, but even long-established businesses can fall prey to it.

[JSpencer]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

One of the first rules of usability on the web is to ignore what people say they want and watch what they actually do. If you ask any question about price, the answer will universally be "cheaper". Maybe a couple of people will give the matter serious consideration, but most will just cry "less".

 

I'd say there were too many variables - which product, loco, wagon or coach for a start. I might be willing to spend more on a detailed loco than a detailed coach.

This sort of thing is easier to work out looking at sales figures. At least the numbers don't lie.

 

For the past few years there has been a good degree price sensitivity in the hobby but no real attempt to measure it. Sales can be an indicator but so many things affect sales that it is not easy to judge. There is no straight line graph of sales vs price, there may be sudden sharp drops if you step above the sensitive price point whereby almost everyone suddenly considers it too expensive.

 

So - as prices are sensitive - a sensitive price survey could be recommended. One method I use in my surveys (especially to access new products) is this method here: https://www.5circles.com/van-westendorp-pricing-the-price-sensitivity-meter/ . A company like Bachmann or Hornby can use it to justify their price point when building the business case for a new product. It can re-enforce sales data or provide a strong indication that it is about to fail or even you are selling too cheaply. There was talk of the £100 barrier then £200 barrier. There almost certainly is a barrier where few will buy though this will be varible from one model to the next, but unless you are waiting for sales to suddenly fail (an expensive way to find it), such a survey could provide a real indication of where the price point suddenly drops off allowing a chance to question the strategy before resources have been commited.

Sales figures is one tool, this is just another and will either show they are correct or another trend may be emerging.