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Bachmann 2020 Range

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11 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

I'm coming round to the view that we've seen the back of highly detailed wagons, and to a lesser extent, coaches because the major manufacturers (for want of a better term) simply can't make a profit out of them in view of the assembly costs and the price the market will agree to pay.......


Rather than seeing the back of highly detailed wagons, we are seeing a small boom in the number being produced by the various new small manufacturers such as Accurascale, Cavalex, Revolution, Hattons, et al.

It’s a shame if Bachmann’s pull back from producing the very high fidelity examples, they gave us a few years ago, is to become a permanent fixture.

 

Hornby have hardly been in the game here though. Apart from a relatively small number of wagons produced to modern day standards, most of their wagon offerings continue to be dated, often crude, sometimes trash.

 

Dapol have given us mixed results, with some absolutely brilliant modern wagons, whereas the others range from quite good, through perfectly acceptable, to could have done better.

 

Heljan have dipped their toes in and out of wagons for the UK, which I think is understandable considering locos are their main route into the UK market.


I have wondered for some time, if wagons will mainly become the preserve of specialist wagon manufacturers. This has happened to a degree in North America.

As I’m already at the point of being “all loco’ed out”, I really need to switch most of my budget to HiFi wagons.

 

 

Ron

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

Yet Hornby usually deliver within their quoted schedule. Sure, there are exeptions but we don't see them taking 5 years or more.

 

True, although that may reflect a more advanced stage of development at which the announcements are made. As @AY Mod has explained, Bachmann may be looking to a similar approach from 2020 on.

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As a vague hope, I’m hoping that some more 009 stuff is announced - lord knows what exactly, although logic would dictate that it is Talyllyn based because of the Thomas link.

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37 minutes ago, Edge said:

As a vague hope, I’m hoping that some more 009 stuff is announced - lord knows what exactly, although logic would dictate that it is Talyllyn based because of the Thomas link.

I’m hoping they might produce the narrow gauge goods shed at Lynton. Will save me having to scratch build it at least.

 

As Bachmann are keen on cranes, how about the WD cranes which the L&B had.

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7 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

It depends, if you were Tesco's.

 

You could build or eat one if you go to Ikea too. 

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6 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

I'm coming round to the view that we've seen the back of highly detailed wagons, and to a lesser extent, coaches because the major manufacturers (for want of a better term) simply can't make a profit out of them in view of the assembly costs and the price the market will agree to pay. Not the same - yet - with locomotives where we seem to be willing for now to pay higher prices for the extra fidelity.

 

Instead of having nothing, I would be willing to buy detailed mouldings with only essential separately fitted detail that can be clearly seen from viewing range, such as large or long handrails, brake rigging and suchlike. I would hope a balance could be struck, without going as far Hornby's design clever period levels of separate detail.

 

We seem to have been unlucky with Bachmann producing a range of modern wagons just at the wrong time, when lots of separately fitted parts was affordable. Perhaps rather than ditching them, so limited redesigning could be done to increase the amount of moulded detail making further production feasible. Still carries financial risks though.

 

It's the same with units, 2-car units now sell over £200 RRP, 3-car types over £300, 4-CEP in green with yellow panels has RRP of £449.95.  

A class 319 in OO if announced next month, allowing for development time and price rises, could easily reach the £500 RRP mark when they hit the shelves. 

 

There has to be a limit sometime; I foresee more DMUs and EMUs being commissioned in the first instance by retailers.

It's already happened with Kernow's 4TC and Thumpers, rather than Bachmann producing them as mainstream range models.

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Spoke to an ITK a few months ago, who explained that it would be highly unlikely Bachmann would do another run of (possibly) the best two modern wagons they have delivered: The Polybulks and JJA Autoballesters. Just not economically viable now. Shame if true, as there are plenty of liveries that could have been looked into.

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3 hours ago, Winter123 said:

Spoke to an ITK a few months ago, who explained that it would be highly unlikely Bachmann would do another run of (possibly) the best two modern wagons they have delivered: The Polybulks and JJA Autoballesters. Just not economically viable now. Shame if true, as there are plenty of liveries that could have been looked into.

 

As I reported earlier.

As you say, it's a real shame.

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Wishlist from Bachmann:

 

Class 150 in both Wessex Trains maroon and FGW 'local lines'

 

Class 158 in Wessex trains/ Alphaline and FGW 'local lines'

 

Retooled class 165/166 turbos

 

Another run of Class 57, 57604 'pendennis castle' with updated GWR logos under the cabs.

 

Obviously I doubt all of these would be announced in the same year but even one would be fab! :good:

 

 

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18 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

Instead of having nothing, I would be willing to buy detailed mouldings with only essential separately fitted detail that can be clearly seen from viewing range, such as large or long handrails, brake rigging and suchlike. I would hope a balance could be struck, without going as far Hornby's design clever period levels of separate detail.

 

And there we have the dilemma. How do you decide what is "enough" detail? Leave anything off and you have people on here baying for blood. Put it on, and increase the price because someone has to to the work, and there are moans about the price. 

 

The only certainty is the someone will be unhappy and make a lot of noise about it. 

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With reference high fidelity wagons and dmus /emus  surely the way forward with this is Accurascale/Cavalex and even Hattons.  The reason being that these are costing too much to make . By the time you add on manufacturers margin the retailers margin then the end price to us , the consumer, is too high, restricting demand for these models at that price . Therefor you need a different business model ie sell direct . By retaining the manufacturers and retailers margin it might just be economical to produce models at reasonable margin with acceptable final price to consumer . As an example I’ll give the forthcoming Accurascale Mk5s . I think the end price is £225 for a 5 coach train . Acceptable to consumer , presumably acceptable margin to Accurascale . While a 4 car CEP from Bachmann is coming in at £449. Yes I know one is powered and the other isn’t but it gives an indication of how far apart these business models are.

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4 hours ago, Legend said:

...The reason being that these are costing too much to make...

Yes, China is nearing 'over' as the manufacturing base for this class of goods. Tinkering with downstream distribution is palliative and short term in effect. Where next for our toys? (One of the benefits of growing old is that having seen two cycles of 'cheap and good', first from Japan, then from China, it's not a surprise.)

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7 hours ago, Wheres_Wally said:

 

And there we have the dilemma. How do you decide what is "enough" detail? Leave anything off and you have people on here baying for blood. Put it on, and increase the price because someone has to to the work, and there are moans about the price. 

 

The only certainty is the someone will be unhappy and make a lot of noise about it. 

 

Indeed. What I am prepared to accept is unlikely to be the same as everyone else. But I do think there is a balance to be struck somewhere, which would satisfy enough of us to generate sufficient sales and adequate returns at an acceptable price. I would not like to be a manufacturer seeking that point, though.

 

It's also interesting that people are now suggesting way forward is the likes of smaller companies like Accurascale, Cavalex etc., presumably at least in part because they cut out the middle men so their costs and therefore prices are lower. I bet they are the same people who complained when Hornby was focussing on direct sales and cutting out retailers (the middle men) - fortunately now in the past.

 

There is no right or wrong answer and fortunately there's a place for everyone, as long as large sums are not lost through unnecessary duplication. 

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My guess for Bachmann 2020:

 

1. BR Standard 2MT - I think this has been coming for a while. In fact for the past few years I have guessed Bachmann would do it. If they are announcing closer to release this one would be a quick fix, being a swap of the Ivatt 2 chassis and thus been expected for some time. Yes, this will mean duplication, but I think if it was to happen Bachmann might be too committed to cancel.

 

2. Class 20 - I think this tags onto the back of the 20/3 option that's being done. A rework that sees the class include DCC sound and lights.
 

3. Class 319 in 00. A scaling up for the EMU unit from n gauge but now wanted in different areas. Yes might get pricey compared to things like the 350 and 158, but it depends how much detail will be included.

4. Not much in terms of stock this time as Bachmann catch up. Several reliveries of some wagons, like using the HTA to make a GBRF ITA. Possible of adding a top like they did with CDA to turn it into a biomass wagon variant. In terms of new rolling stock I think the humble HAA or HEA wagon might be worth retooling. It would be a step back from high fidelity that is being mentioned but would be another wagon that has a long scope and plied its trade for years.

Several reliveries of stock to be done:

Mk. 2 - Virgin, DRS, Anglia
DBSO - Network rail, Anglia, DRS
HTA - to HIA GBRF coal / biomass wagon.
Thompson coaches into maroon and cream
Class 158 into Arriva Northern and Scotrail Saltaire (so both as current). Possible Northern Spirit.
Autoballasters into Network Rail
Class 37 into BR Blue and Green
Class 66 into One Pink, EWS, Advensa
Class 47 into GBRF, ROG, Riviera
A2/3 in BR Green
A1 in BR Express Blue
J72 in lined BR Black, LNER green 8680, Joem BR/NER livery
Class 90 into EWS, DB Red, Greater Anglia
Class 57 into WCRC Northern Belle, ROG, plain arriva livery.

 

Tie ins:

LNWR Hardwick or Southern Railway T3 with NRM


Also rans:

J21
Southern Q
Swindon Transpennine Unit (class 123?)
Manor class

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In many instances there is a considerable price difference between an item from Hornby's Railroad range and its counterpart from the main range for reasons that have been well documented before.

 

The question remains. How much reduction of detail would buyers be prepared to accept whilst keeping costs to an "affordable" level? The answer would most certainly be "as little a possible."

As with any outlay, those fortunate in not being restricted by price will expect models to remain or even exceed current detail standards, whilst those who have a somewhat restricted budget might willingly accept the compromise of less detailing if it is within their means. 

 

There are of course certain extremes. For example, as with all model items, to some, a breakdown crane is just a breakdown crane. It would appear that even Bachmann have surpassed themselves with their superb rendition of the Ransomes and Rapier beast. To what lesser degree of detail could this model be made in an effort to reduce its retail price? In this case it is the detail which has set the standards for this type of model. 

 

However, pertaining to the likes of "general" rolling stock, perhaps Bachmann might take a gander at the "Railroad" idea and perhaps come up with a similar themed example, whilst retaining their Standard range.

 

One final point, metal wheels - WHATEVER THE COST !!!

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Right Away said:

......However, pertaining to the likes of "general" rolling stock, perhaps Bachmann might take a gander at the "Railroad" idea and perhaps come up with a similar themed example, whilst retaining their Standard range.

 

For God's sake I hope not.

They are a different operator to Hornby, who continue to position themselves primarily a toy and hobby company.

Railroad exists mainly to cling on to the slowly dying embers of the toy train set market.

Railroad models that are, or just about acceptable for model railway use, are more of a byproduct of the original marketing rational for Railroad.

 

.

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2 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

 

It's also interesting that people are now suggesting way forward is the likes of smaller companies like Accurascale, Cavalex etc., presumably at least in part because they cut out the middle men so their costs and therefore prices are lower

 

They also got very excited about a couple of crowd-funding based companies, but that didn't work out so well. There is a difference between noise on a forum, and actual sales as any of the RTR makers will tell you, and only one pays the wage bill.

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Given that this is more of a progress update rather that a lot of new announcements I would hope to see some reruns like the JIAs

 

I wonder could we see Mk 2Es as there are some shared components with the Mk 2Fs and presumably Bachmann have thought of this.

 

Also a Class 116 based on the 117 tooling but with a new center coach.

 

 

I would really like to see mk 2Bs and Cs but I doubt it and also a class 120 but that is just wishlisting. Both however have polled well so I do expect someone to do them eventually.

 

 

 

 

 

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Probably a  very long shot but I would love to see the LBSCR E4 in Improved Engine Green and/or Stroudley Goods Green.

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3 hours ago, Right Away said:

In many instances there is a considerable price difference between an item from Hornby's Railroad range and its counterpart from the main range for reasons that have been well documented before.

 

The question remains. How much reduction of detail would buyers be prepared to accept whilst keeping costs to an "affordable" level? The answer would most certainly be "as little a possible."

As with any outlay, those fortunate in not being restricted by price will expect models to remain or even exceed current detail standards, whilst those who have a somewhat restricted budget might willingly accept the compromise of less detailing if it is within their means. 

 

There are of course certain extremes. For example, as with all model items, to some, a breakdown crane is just a breakdown crane. It would appear that even Bachmann have surpassed themselves with their superb rendition of the Ransomes and Rapier beast. To what lesser degree of detail could this model be made in an effort to reduce its retail price? In this case it is the detail which has set the standards for this type of model. 

 

However, pertaining to the likes of "general" rolling stock, perhaps Bachmann might take a gander at the "Railroad" idea and perhaps come up with a similar themed example, whilst retaining their Standard range.

 

One final point, metal wheels - WHATEVER THE COST !!!

 

 

 

 

 

The Railroad stuff is generally good enough for my eyes (there is the odd exception with old oversize tender drive moulds) except for the lack of cab side windows on locos that should have them.  They must cost pennies, so I'm sure Hornby leave them off just to make the RR models look inferior.

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4 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

My guess for Bachmann 2020:

 

Sigh...

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4 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

My guess for Bachmann 2020:

 

1. BR Standard 2MT - I think this has been coming for a while. In fact for the past few years I have guessed Bachmann would do it. If they are announcing closer to release this one would be a quick fix, being a swap of the Ivatt 2 chassis and thus been expected for some time. Yes, this will mean duplication, but I think if it was to happen Bachmann might be too committed to cancel.

 

2. Class 20 - I think this tags onto the back of the 20/3 option that's being done. A rework that sees the class include DCC sound and lights.
 

3. Class 319 in 00. A scaling up for the EMU unit from n gauge but now wanted in different areas. Yes might get pricey compared to things like the 350 and 158, but it depends how much detail will be included.

4. Not much in terms of stock this time as Bachmann catch up. Several reliveries of some wagons, like using the HTA to make a GBRF ITA. Possible of adding a top like they did with CDA to turn it into a biomass wagon variant. In terms of new rolling stock I think the humble HAA or HEA wagon might be worth retooling. It would be a step back from high fidelity that is being mentioned but would be another wagon that has a long scope and plied its trade for years.

Several reliveries of stock to be done:

Mk. 2 - Virgin, DRS, Anglia
DBSO - Network rail, Anglia, DRS
HTA - to HIA GBRF coal / biomass wagon.
Thompson coaches into maroon and cream
Class 158 into Arriva Northern and Scotrail Saltaire (so both as current). Possible Northern Spirit.
Autoballasters into Network Rail
Class 37 into BR Blue and Green
Class 66 into One Pink, EWS, Advensa
Class 47 into GBRF, ROG, Riviera
A2/3 in BR Green
A1 in BR Express Blue
J72 in lined BR Black, LNER green 8680, Joem BR/NER livery
Class 90 into EWS, DB Red, Greater Anglia
Class 57 into WCRC Northern Belle, ROG, plain arriva livery.

 

Tie ins:

LNWR Hardwick or Southern Railway T3 with NRM


Also rans:

J21
Southern Q
Swindon Transpennine Unit (class 123?)
Manor class

 

 

Nothing there for me. My credit card can heave a sigh of relief. 

 

Rob. 

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Not wishlisting but I do wonder if the next recipient of the Class 158-170 low floor mechanism and retool budget might be the Voyager family, possibly including a Meridian?  Lots of livery options, seen everywhere and a nice compact "inter city" train.  It'll cost but people seem to be buying the grey Pullman which costs a lot more.

Also given the 117 is on final approach, the same 64ft mechanism could easily pick off that low hanging Class 120 fruit.

I do also wonder about "Hardwicke"...

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I would put my money on Bachmann adding a Network Rail BR Mk2F DBSO as I think this would be sure fire winner for them in the 2020 catalogue considering the NR one would go perfectly with Accurascale's announced 97301 and existing Bachmann NR 37's and of course they may even do the DRS version again to match with Bachmann's DRS 37's and of course future DRS 37's from Accurascale, thus giving customers a lot of scope whether they own existing Bachmann or future Accurascale 37's.

It would be nice if they do but if they don't then no worries.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, The Black Hat said:



4. Not much in terms of stock this time as Bachmann catch up. Several reliveries of some wagons, like using the HTA to make a GBRF ITA. Possible of adding a top like they did with CDA to turn it into a biomass wagon variant. In terms of new rolling stock I think the humble HAA or HEA wagon might be worth retooling. It would be a step back from high fidelity that is being mentioned but would be another wagon that has a long scope and plied its trade for years.

 

Autoballasters into Network Rail

Class 66 into One Pink, EWS, Advensa

 

 

The HTA and HYA/IIA isn't a simple re-livery, re-bogie and buffers. They have different end slope angles. 

Yet they have done both the HTA and HYA in the Farish range, which does appear to be two different body mouldings representing the two different angles

 

HTA

HTA_310018_Cardiff_03052014 (231)

 

HYA

HYA_371044_York_300709 (21)

 

 

 

I wonder if the HTA will appear in de-branded EWS as GBRf are using them in decent quantities.

 

It is said further up the thread, that it is highly unlikely that there will be a re-run of the highly detailed wagons, such as the autoballaster and Polybulk due to the high cost of producing them.

 

I do question the 66 in further liveries - a local model shop has seen sales of Bachmann 66s significantly reduce since the Hattons announcement.

But then it wouldn't surprise me if there were more livery releases with a drop in the RRP to distance itself from the Hattons offering.

 

Edited by newbryford
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