Squeezing in a narrow gauge layout (009)

[jamespetts]

I have posted these plans before, but I suspect that they are liable to be lost among a thread discussing London suburban layouts.

 

There is some context to this, which I will set out below, but first the basic plan.

 

The basic plan

 

I am contemplating building a small narrow gauge layout in a limited but slightly unusually shaped space and this is the track plan that I have come up with so far:

 

This is intended to represent a freelance narrow gauge railway in north Wales in perhaps about the 1890s.

 

It is imagined as the inland town end of a railway intended mainly to carry slate from a nearby quarry to a port and/or main line railway.

 

The slate quarry is imagined as being perhaps half a mile outside town, and served by its own spur, which joins the mainline a little way down the line, off scene. However, there is a spur from the quarry connecting to the town station to allow locomotives from the quarry to be stabled at the engine sheds (red tracks) overnight and also for small quantities of slate to be brought to the town from the quarry for use locally.

 

The fiddle yards are shown in green.

 

The station would thus mainly receive passenger and general goods traffic, with the occasional slate train from the quarry.

 

The engine sheds are secondary engine sheds, the main works of the railway being at the other end of the line. It is intended that the sheds be able to store up to 4 engines.

 

To give an idea of size, the platform is about 600mm long. This should be enough for a locomotive and three bogie carriages of the Lynton & Barnstaple type, although I may well not use this sort of carriage on the line - I have yet to make detailed decisions about rolling stock.

 

The intention is to use DCC (I presume that this is practical in 009 given that it is plainly practical in N gauge?) and principally ready to run stock from suppliers such as Fourdees and Peco (and possibly Bachmann).

 

Track I had planned as the Peco irregular sleeper ("Crazytrack") type, as this is intended to represent a minor, lightly laid line in the 19th century. The tight radius of the turnouts is useful for fitting the layout into this space.

 

The track plan is loosely inspired by the design of the Tarrant Gunville station on the delightful Tarrant Valley Railway layout which I enjoyed watching at Warley this year:

 

Tarrant Valley Railway - 009 by fairlightworks, on Flickr

 

Tarrant Gunville by James Petts, on Flickr

 

 

The context

 

The reason that this is squeezed into this specific shaped space is that it is intended to fit alongside the fiddle yards of a London Underground based layout as shown here:

 

 

The end of the London Underground layout (shown in grey) fiddle yards coincide more or less exactly with the end of the narrow gauge layout's fiddle yards, thus the narrow gauge railway should not encroach upon the scenic part of the Underground layout.

 

That Underground layout is itself to an extent fitted in around other layouts in my railway shed: one layout, currently under construction, is an N gauge layout occupying the whole of the south wall of the shed. The other layout, still in the planning stage as I need to complete at least the fiddle yard wiring for the N gauge layout before I can have the baseboards for this layout installed, is a large 00 gauge layout intended to represent a main line terminus in the 1930s and will occupy, at a higher level than the N gauge layout, the whole of the south and east walls, and most of the north wall, the other part of the north wall being taken by my desk/workbench. The west wall contains the door that I use to access the shed.

 

A diagrammatic representation of the shed interior, showing the planned 00 gauge layout including track, the under construction N gauge layout (shown as a plain brown rectilinear object), the floor (grey) and various items of furniture/storage is below:

 

 

The shed interior looks like this:

 

Shed by James Petts, on Flickr

 

except that the N gauge layout is now considerably more advanced:

 

Fiddle yard track complete by James Petts, on Flickr

 

I had originally planned to build these two layouts first before giving any detailed consideration as to what to do with the lower east and north walls, the plan being to gain experience of building and operating the other layouts before deciding what to build in the remaining space. However, the people who made the baseboards very sensibly advised that the upper 00 gauge layout be not put in place until I have at finished laying and wiring in at least the fiddle yards of the N gauge layout. This is because it would otherwise be extremely difficult to reach the rear parts of the lower track with the upper tracks in place. (As an aside - although the lower level track and wiring should be done before the upper level baseboards be built, the upper level track and wiring will need to be complete before the lower level signals/scenery be put in, or else they will be liable to damage whilst reaching underneath to implement the wiring).

 

I have recently realised (perhaps belatedly) that this means not only that the N gauge layout should have its baseboards, cork, track and wiring done at least so far as the rear parts are concerned, but that the other layout(s) that I might want to build along the east and north walls need also to be partly built (at least to the stage of trains running on track on otherwise bare baseboards) before I can even have the 00 gauge baseboards built.

 

I had for some time thought in vague terms that I might want either a London suburban/Underground based layout (for intensive operation) or perhaps a Welsh narrow gauge layout (for more relaxed operation). I now realise that I cannot make this choice on the basis of experience running the other railways because of the sequence in which they must be built.

 

One solution, therefore, is to have both. This necessitates a very small narrow gauge layout as might be imagined, but I think that I have just about managed to squeeze in a workable plan and room for a smidgen of scenery, and is only compatible with some of the various designs of London suburban/Underground layouts that I am in the process of considering, but this may well be better than missing out on being able to model the delight that is narrow gauge at all.

 

I have not made up my mind quite whether I want to do this yet, but I do like variety (as might perhaps be inferred from wanting to model the 1980s in N gauge at the same time as the 1930s in 00 gauge and also possibly the London Underground and a sleepy narrow gauge station), so this is a very appealing solution.

 

I should thus welcome any comments about the practicality of these plans or the realism (or operability) of the track plan. Sorry that this post has ended up so long - these things are never simple, I find, especially when I like to optimise things to the last degree.

[PaulRhB]

Dcc in 009 is certainly possible, the Bachmann Baldwin is a simple job that takes just a couple of minutes with well designed access. Fitting decoders to older locos or Minitrains rtr stuff means hard wiring in small spaces but modern chips by Zimo etc are so small I’ve fitted them in cabs even where the cab is full of the motor. I’ve done 009 in a similar space using modular ends to make a similar sized twin station layout for home use or that can be part of a larger layout with friends, including the TVR crew

6x6ft space

 

4ft long station 

 

and as part of a larger layout

Edited December 4, 2019 by PaulRhB

[PaulRhB]

Baldwin

 

Bachmann Skarloey / Talyllyn hard wired. 

 

Minitrains squeezed in the cab hard wired

Edited December 4, 2019 by PaulRhB

[jamespetts]

Thank you for your replies. That is a lovely looking layout.

[colin smith]

Your plan doesn't look Welsh NG to me. It looks a lot more like a std gauge terminus. I'd be inclined to take a look at some actual Welsh NG locations as they were in the 1890s and freely adapt from them. Possibly Duffws on the Ffestiniog might be useful inspiration, or perhaps Coed-y-Parc on the Penrhyn Rly, albeit with added passenger facilities.

[jamespetts]

The above track layout is based on one from the Tarrant Valley Railway model, as set out above. I believe that it is also similar to Tywyn Wharf, although I am only going from a model railway track plan for this.

 

May I ask which specific features are atypical of Welsh narrow gauge practice and where I might find plans of similarly sized Welsh narrow gauge termini?

Edited December 4, 2019 by jamespetts

[colin smith]

I have to disagree that your plan is similar to Tywyn Wharf. In the 1890s it wasn't a passenger station, had no platform and no run-round loop and has never had an engine shed. I would also suggest that you don't base your model railway on an existing model railway as that makes your model derivative rather than being unique. It also seems odd as The Tarrant Valley Railway is supposedly set in Dorset when you want to model Welsh NG.

The only common feature I can think of with Welsh NG practice is that most of the buildings associated with the railways were built of slate. Other than that, oxymoronically, what unites all the Welsh NG railways is that each was very distinctive.

Festpedia is a fantastic resource of all things Ffestiniog Rly. This is the page on Duffws station https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Duffws 
The same site also includes Dinas station on the WHR which might be what you're looking for in terms of prototype inspiration.  https://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Dinas_Junction

 

Other than that, I can only suggest doing a bit more prototype research before committing to a plan and would suggest Welsh Narrow gauge railways by JDC Prideaux as a good starting point https://www.amazon.co.uk/Welsh-Narrow-Railway-J-D-C-Prideaux/dp/0715371843.

[Nearholmer]

What Colin says is harsh, but true.

 

one line you might want to look at is the Festiniog and Blaenau, which was a bit like a small model railway layout.

[PaulRhB]

You could look to the Welshpool for inspiration, Pat Collins Ryedown Lane is a nice small example that could provide inspiration if you search images on Google. 

 

The main thing for a slate line terminus minus would be some sort of yard for transfer of slate to boats or standard gauge. Something similar in scenery to Tarrant Gunville would work if you made the yard suitable for handling the transfer. Tywyn Wharf & Port Dinorwic are slightly less industrial looking than Portmadoc harbour and could provide a nice theme if you took inspiration from their slate yards to replace TG’s goods yard. 

[jamespetts]

@colin smith- I do not believe that I have had an answer to the question of what features of the current plan are atypical of Welsh narrow gauge practice. May I ask what your answer is to that? This is of some importance if I am to take anything useful from this comment.

 

I should note that the purpose of this plan was to see whether a workable narrow gauge railway could be fit into the space available, as discussed in detail. If there are other layouts that might also fit into the space, give no less operational interest and are more fitting to reality, then I should want to modify the plan accordingly, so the harsh tone of some of the posts is wholly unjustified.

 

Thank you for the Festipedia links - however, the only track plans that I can see are from Duffys, which appear to be incomplete, and, from what I can tell of these incomplete plans, are of a considerably larger facility than would fit in the space available, so there is little use that I can make of these plans.

 

@PaulRhB - as to slate transfer, as explained in the original post, the idea is that all the significant slate traffic does not go through this station: only a few wagons for the local town. The slate transfer terminus is at the other end of the (imaginary) line.

[Nearholmer]

Which is why I suggested the F&BR, that having had a passenger and general goods terminus at its outer end, while the slate was from quarries nearer to where it connected with its better known elder sibling the Festiniog Railway, which took the slate onwards to the sea.

 

F I can find a plan of the F&B terminus, I will sketch it ...... it isn’t shown on maps that I can find on line, because it was converted to SG in the 1880s, before the maps were drawn.

[colin smith]

I don't think I was being harsh but I apologise if I came across that way.

 

However, I did misread your question as "what specific features are typical of Welsh narrow gauge practice" which led to the confusion. 
Your track plan is reminiscent of the arrangements  at Llanfair Caerinion on the Welshpool & Llanfair Rly and it's not dissimilar from that at Southwold on the 3' gauge Southwold Rly. However, both of those were mainly passenger/tourist carriers with general goods traffic whereas the Welsh slate carrying railways had a different feel. Specific elements of your plan that, to me, look out of place for a Welsh slate railway are the arrangement of the platform and run round loop with adjacent goods  sidings and the parallel tracks. Usually on a Welsh slate railway most of the track would be devoted to marshalling slate wagons into trains. Rhyd by David John is an excellent model of a slate railway terminus that captures the feel of the prototype. https://rhyd.weebly.com/

 

Finding track plans of prototype locations is difficult online. Believe me, I have tried. There is no online equivalent of the excellent (if not always completely accurate) drawings in the books by J. I. C. Boyd, though those books are still worth finding. However, there is an excellent resource courtesy of the Library of Scotland which has digitised historic Ordnance Survey maps covering most of England, Scotland, and Wales. For example, I've attached a screen shot from a 25" map showing Duffws on the Ffestiniog rly in 1899. You have to do some arithmetic to scale up from the map and of course with any model based on the prototype you have to do a lot of compression. 

 

Once familiar with the web site you can search for other possible prototypes to be inspired by.  https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=52.9952&lon=-3.9356&layers=168&b=1 unfortunately, the 25" series doesn't cover all locations (or all locations haven't been digitised) but it's the best way I know of finding historic track arrangements. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by colin smith

[Sturminster_Newton]

"...I had for some time thought in vague terms that I might want either a London suburban/Underground based layout (for intensive operation) or perhaps a Welsh narrow gauge layout (for more relaxed operation). I now realise that I cannot make this choice on the basis of experience running the other railways because of the sequence in which they must be built.

 

One solution, therefore, is to have both. This necessitates a very small narrow gauge layout as might be imagined, but I think that I have just about managed to squeeze in a workable plan and room for a smidgen of scenery, and is only compatible with some of the various designs of London suburban/Underground layouts that I am in the process of considering, but this may well be better than missing out on being able to model the delight that is narrow gauge at all..."

 

Geograhically/operationally this is a very wide brief.

 

In practice to amalgamate LUG and narrow gauge would possibly point to sewage farm/water treatment works for the Narra gauge. Or a leisure line like Ruislip Lido.

 

Any mineral based line would be dealing with regular large quantities of product and any passenger/frieght carriage would be a minor sideline so you should have large transfer sidings at the mainline interchange, see Festiniog Mynffordd Yard.

 

Even lines which were used for agricultural/clay/sand/mineral extraction will be biased to their raison d'etre and operated accordingly such operations would have zero passenger carriage apart perhaps a man rider or two at top and tail of a shift. They would also be worked at a level that few would think possible when they look back at what the passenger intensity is now.

 

So think carefully. In peak production there may be precious little between the operation of a mineral railway and the operation of London Underground...

[Nearholmer]

Yep, mineral railways are/were conveyor belts.

 

I’m really struggling to get passenger carrying NG alongside LT, except pleasure railways (the Neverstop Railway at the 1925 Wembley Exhibition, plus the Met temporary terminus there?).

 

Depending upon date and location, one half-plausible option might be a NG line transporting workers to/from an explosive/weapons factory. Woolwich Arsenal 18” gauge had some very respectable bogie passenger coaches for such purposes, and one of the Kent Marshes factories had a long metre gauge railway for workers (Davington Light Railway), while Coryton had a SG light railway to do the same job.The Chattendon and Upnor had passenger coaches, some of which are preserved, and I think some of the coaches at Bowaters at Sittingbourne pre-date preservation. Go back further in history, and there was a very impressive 18" gauge railway on the heights behind Chatham and Rochester, which had "cage coaches" for carrying convicts, who formed the labour force to build fortifications ..........

 

But, you have to be at the outer fringes of LT for that sort of thing!

 

Otherwise, model the Post Office Railway!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Nearholmer

[009 micro modeller]

On 12/08/2020 at 10:27, Nearholmer said:

Yep, mineral railways are/were conveyor belts.

 

I’m really struggling to get passenger carrying NG alongside LT, except pleasure railways (the Neverstop Railway at the 1925 Wembley Exhibition, plus the Met temporary terminus there?).

 

Depending upon date and location, one half-plausible option might be a NG line transporting workers to/from an explosive/weapons factory. Woolwich Arsenal 18” gauge had some very respectable bogie passenger coaches for such purposes, and one of the Kent Marshes factories had a long metre gauge railway for workers (Davington Light Railway), while Coryton had a SG light railway to do the same job.The Chattendon and Upnor had passenger coaches, some of which are preserved, and I think some of the coaches at Bowaters at Sittingbourne pre-date preservation. Go back further in history, and there was a very impressive 18" gauge railway on the heights behind Chatham and Rochester, which had "cage coaches" for carrying convicts, who formed the labour force to build fortifications ..........

 

But, you have to be at the outer fringes of LT for that sort of thing!

 

Otherwise, model the Post Office Railway!

 

 

 

 

 

A bit late to this but I thought the OP’s original idea was to have the narrow gauge as a separate layout next to the London Underground one (rather than integrate them), hence the choice of a separate Welsh setting.

 

However, to get both on the same layout one location which jumps out (sort of alluded to already) is Colne Valley Waterworks Railway, notwithstanding that this actually connected to the LNWR line to Rickmansworth rather than the Metropolitan nearby. To get NG passenger operations you could imagine a line like this also being used to run preserved passenger trains, in the style of early preservation-era Leighton Buzzard.

[Nearholmer]

I suppose another option might be too extend the Bakerloo Line to Blaenau Ffestiniog.

 

Would look impressive on the tube map.

[jamespetts]

009 Micro Modeller is correct - the idea was two separate layouts sharing a baseboard rather than a single location with both narrow gauge and underground. A waterworks railway is an interesting idea, but I do not think that this fits with any of the proposed plans at present.

 

I am currently minded to build the version of the Underground layout that leaves no room for a narrow gauge, so this may become academic; but I am not at a stage where I need to start building anything yet, so that may change. I am focussing more or less exclusively on the modern N gauge layout this year, and have progressed significantly with that, so these 1:76 projects are currently in abeyance.

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, jamespetts said:

009 Micro Modeller is correct - the idea was two separate layouts sharing a baseboard rather than a single location with both narrow gauge and underground. A waterworks railway is an interesting idea, but I do not think that this fits with any of the proposed plans at present.

 

I am currently minded to build the version of the Underground layout that leaves no room for a narrow gauge, so this may become academic; but I am not at a stage where I need to start building anything yet, so that may change. I am focussing more or less exclusively on the modern N gauge layout this year, and have progressed significantly with that, so these 1:76 projects are currently in abeyance.

 

I didn’t realise they would even be sharing a baseboard though - I thought you were just intending them to be completely separate but immediately alongside each other. If you have no space but still want to do something in 009 then a micro layout that can be easily packed up and stored might be a good idea, although the minimum space nature of some micro layout designs means that they don’t particularly lend themselves to passenger operation.

 

As an aside and since Ruislip Lido has been mentioned, I understand (but would need to confirm) that there was a plan at one stage to either build or rebuild this line (which is 12 inch gauge and now operated by a preservation society) to 2ft, making a model in 009 seem more reasonable. However, as I recall it isn’t actually that near to the Underground lines. I have previously looked at this line as a modelling subject and felt that certain parts of it could allow a layout with fairly interesting operation, although I don’t think the original, more basic setup would be particularly interesting operationally.

[jamespetts]

Looking at this further, since I should not want to leave aside the idea of a narrow gauge layout entirely, 009 Micro Modeller's suggestion of a fold-away layout has much to recommend it.

 

I have therefore computed how much space that a small portable layout would occupy stored on its side underneath the baseboards of the N gauge layout, and worked out that I can fit a 2.2m x 0.4m layout, on two baseboards, into that space and behind some of the furniture intended to fit under this layout (currently in another part of the shed whilst I work on the wiring of the N gauge), which space would otherwise go unused.

 

Here is the resulting plan:

 

 

It is a relatively basic design, intended to represent a north Wales slate railway in the 1890s. It will probably not be built for a while, so I intend to use the forthcoming Peco/Kato Ffestiniog railway locomotives for the main line section, plus one of the forthcoming Bachmann quarry Hunslets for the quarry spur. It is unfortunate that nobody yet produces models of the Ffestiniog Railway bogie carriages.

 

The basic idea of this layout is that it is at the inland end of a slate quarry to port railway, serving the town associated with but ~2 miles away from the slate quarry; the line to the quarry diverges from the line to this town station a little way further down the tracks, but there is then also a direct line from the quarry to the town station used for (1) quarrymen's trains in the morning (possibly - nobody produces the quarrymen's carriages and I wonder whether quarrymen would simply walk 2 miles rather than take the train for such a distance); and (2) slate for use in the town.

 

There is no space for carriage sidings, which are presumed to be at the port end of the line, and the engine shed is intended to be a secondary shed intended to house engines that run the first trains from the inland town/quarry to the port.

 

The grey line represents the baseboard join, and the blue line represents the divide between scenic area and fiddle yard.

 

The intention is for the layout to be able to be either automated, at least as to main-line movements, or run manually using a lever frame on the fiddle yard board.

 

The signalling system is intended to be based on that of the Ffestiniog railway of this period, using the tall double armed station signals with a staff and ticket system, plus point position indicators, which are likely to have been used at the junction between the main line and quarry spur.

 

The intention is to simulate this signalling system accurately in the automation software.