BL live steam moguls

[rockershovel]

It’s funny how things come round in groups on eBay. Right now, there seem to be a number of O Gauge, BL live steam 2-6-0 passing through. I’ve never heard of these before, anyone care to offer any information or comments? Are they any good? Are they common? What track do they run on?

[Nearholmer]

Rocker

 

These beasts are much-discussed on Classic 0 forum, with all sorts of hints and tips about how to get the best performance from them.

 

In summary there are "real" BL ones, from the late 1920s to the 1960s, and there are "modern" ones from the past c20 years, and people seem to get good performance out of both.

 

Kevin

[rockershovel]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Rocker

 

These beasts are much-discussed on Classic 0 forum, with all sorts of hints and tips about how to get the best performance from them.

 

In summary there are "real" BL ones, from the late 1920s to the 1960s, and there are "modern" ones from the past c20 years, and people seem to get good performance out of both.

 

Kevin

 

Sounds like the sort of thing best left to those who know about them! What track do they run on? Coarse Scale O / tinplate? 

Edited December 4, 2019 by rockershovel

[Nearholmer]

Most people seem to run them on solid-rail coarse track, I think because they need curves of greater radius than is usual in tinplate.

 

Running live steam tends to be a hobby in itself, requiring a bit of time and dedication.

[sncf231e]

48 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

What track do they run on? 

My track in the garden:

 

This is a "modern" version I have, made by Corgi Bassett-Lowke.

 

Regards

Fred

[rockershovel]

That’s rather terrific. 

[mvrattler]

Fred,

           Is there a difference between the origional BL and the modern Corgie BL. I to have been watching the BL steam loco listings on UK Ebay and wondering why they are suddenly appearing. 

 

Kerry

in OZ

[sncf231e]

As far as construction of the mechanism, there is no difference between these two. The Corgi ones were just a carbon copy of the original. And Corgi had the rights to use the BL name. Real BL collectors of course only like the BL original ones.

Regards

Fred

[Nearholmer]

Kerry

 

oodles of the modern ones seem to have been bought and never run, and, yes, they now seem to be coming out of stashes and going onto eBay. 
 

My guess is that people bought them on a whim, have not plucked-up the courage to learn how to run them, and dispose of them as they down-size and/or de-clutter.

 

Kevin

 

 

[rockershovel]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Kerry

 

oodles of the modern ones seem to have been bought and never run, and, yes, they now seem to be coming out of stashes and going onto eBay. 
 

My guess is that people bought them on a whim, have not plucked-up the courage to learn how to run them, and dispose of them as they down-size and/or de-clutter.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

From what’s been said above, I suspect that it is not so much “never plucked up the courage” as “couldn’t face the challenge, once they learned about what was required”.  

 

I’ve seen that before with eBay. Something appears, it sells and people think “oh, I have one of those...” 

[Nearholmer]

It’s not much different from running an old mamod toy, so it’s not exactly challenging.

[sncf231e]

21 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

It’s not much different from running an old mamod toy, so it’s not exactly challenging.

 

Indeed, just a bit of water and a bit of fire:

 

 

Regards

Fred

[goldfish]

In the October 1952 edition of THE MODEL RAILWAY CONSTRUCTOR there is an article by M. Drinkwater about replacing the spirit burner on a  BL Mogul with an electrical heating element. The conversion was presumably a success, but unfortunately the PDF I found this in only contains the first page of the article. The author talks of using 24 Volts at 10 Amps, which is not a long way from the 17 Volts and 7 Amps that Hornby used for their 00 live steam locomotives. Does anybody have the complete article, or know if the author was successful with his conversion? It sounds an interesting idea.

[Nearholmer]

I’m sure we’ve discussed this at length, either on RMWeb or Classic 0 Forum.

 

i don’t have the article, but have read it ages ago, and the challenge with such systems will always be the size of the currents in play.

 

To raise steam at the pressures needed in a reasonable time from cold, then to maintain pressure when hauling a load, will need something in the order 100 to 200W (the better the insulation on the boiler, the lower the demand), which is why the currents are so high. 
 

Collecting those currents reliably and without damage through either wheels (really quite hard) or through sliding shoes is challenging, and the potential for trouble at rail bonds, and at any point where collection is momentarily interrupted (leading to arcing) is great.

 

So, it’s an interesting idea alright, and it can be made to work, but keeping it working satisfactorily will always be a difficult task.

 

My gut feeling is that gas-firing, as used in most 16mm/ft locos these days, is a far better option. It’s never been popular in Gauge 1, I think for no other reason than conservatism combined with deep respect for a proper multi-tubular boiler, but I notice that commercial suppliers are now providing gas-fired tank engines in that scale, opening steam operation up to a lot more people. The Accucraft LSWR B4 0-4-0T was, I think, the one that broke the mould, in 2012.

 

If i were to go for live steam in 0, I think I’d start with a typical 0-6-0 goods engine or 4-4-0 passenger engine, gas fired with radio control, using the tender to give enough space for a gas tank and radio gear without it all getting hot and cramped. Some of the tinier locos being built in 16mm/ft with gas firing are down at the sizes concerned, and the B4 tank in G1 ditto.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[rockershovel]

Those RC live-steam locos on the 16mm Club stand at Peterborough seemed to work very well..

[goldfish]

Gas firing with RC control is a mature technology that could easily be made to work in 0. A Roundhouse chassis would be the obvious staring point, but I wouldn't like to run one in my loft. An electrically heated one would be much safer. One option would be to connect directly to the mains with a 60 Watt incandescent bulb in series with the track, but even Hornby quickly decided that was a bad idea :-)

[rockershovel]

54 minutes ago, goldfish said:

Gas firing with RC control is a mature technology that could easily be made to work in 0. A Roundhouse chassis would be the obvious staring point, but I wouldn't like to run one in my loft. An electrically heated one would be much safer. One option would be to connect directly to the mains with a 60 Watt incandescent bulb in series with the track, but even Hornby quickly decided that was a bad idea :-)

 

Which more-or-less brings us to the O/S/OO/HO gauge divide. O has no logical relationship to 1 Gauge, in the way that HO is “half O” and OO is “HO for British outline models”. It was just the largest gauge which could be fitted on a (large) tabletop or on indoor floors, and the smallest loading gauge to accommodate the motive power systems of the day. 

 

S Gauge is a nice scale, I think; the models are a good size and it doesn’t take up too much room. But with HO setting the pace, it was too little, too late to succeed commercially. 

 

Same with O gauge live steam. Yes, it can be made to work, but 16mm Scale (more or less) on 32mm and 45mm Gauge offers more scope, eases the engineering problems and makes similar demands on cost and space. O Gauge live steam has had its chance in the marketplace, and missed out because other options are more generally preferred. 

 

TBH, I think I’d go for 16mm if I were doing live steam. 

[Nearholmer]

Which seems to be the majority position. 

 

I do wonder if there is a sort of cultural divide here too, around ‘indoors’ vs ‘outdoors’. 0 is nowadays very largely an indoor scale, which isn’t hugely favourable to steam, while G1 and 16mm/ft are largely outdoor formats.

 

However, it would be very interesting (or possibly commercial suicide!) if someone like Accucraft were to bring to market a viable 0 gauge steamer, because it is sometimes the case that an innovative new product “makes its own market”, by attracting people to build layouts that they wouldn’t even have considered before.

[Happy Hippo]

The problem with developing any live steam loco in the smaller scales , is that water molecules cannot be scaled down.

 

Condensate requires moving before the loco can  get useful steam and move off, then that steam flow has to be controlled to prevent the loco running away.

 

The small bore, long stroke cylinders produce much speed quickly, as any owner of the Mamod Steam railway locos will tell you.  If you can reduce the stroke and increase the bore then the piston will run more slowly.  However, you also need to reduce the amount of stream that the cylinder gets once the loco is up and running, and allow the steam to work expansively..............just like the real thing.

 

As the scale gets smaller the ability to get a larger bore cylinder in the confines of the loading gauge, especially if you want a two cylinder loco with inside cylinders is somewhat restricted.  add a valve chest and the requirement to clear condensate and it gets trickier.  There is no chance of scale cylinder relief valves or cylinder drain cocks.

 

The biggest drawback to live steamers is the mess they make.  they are totally incontinent and spend their entire time dropping water, oil, and a mixture of the two in every conceivable place on the railway.  You don't need artificial weathering as the loco will do it automatically.  Lineside buildings, signals, coach roofs and sides.  None are exempt.  Meths spills can give Peco track very nice melted sleepers, and let's not get into the realms of coal firing.

 

Until you get into larger scales, the biggest problem you have is controlling the loco.  Until you get to 16mm and above, you tend to find that once the loco is up to pressure, it's set off and continues haul it's train around, until it needs refuelling, or if it's a pot boiler, in need of more water.

 

All this seems like a rant against live steam model locos, but it's not.  I've been into live steam since the 1980's and am still building locos in 1:13.7 (7/8" = 1'). I also repair and refurbish locos for friends and have been involved in design and development of a number of commercial live steamers. 

 

In the nearly 40 years I've been involved in small scale live steam, I've seen many innovations and improvement to enhancing performance and controllability, and there are more to come, but as of yet, there is a stumbling block caused by the laws of physics which is difficult to overcome!

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Can’t argue with any of that, although I will add a probably useless anecdote:

 

Of the several live steam locos I’ve owned in 16mm/ft, the two I kept for my vestigial garden railway when I moved into indoor coarse-0 were a Roundhouse Billy (solid as a rock) and a loco with long-stroke, double-acting, oscillating cylinders. The latter is the most controllable loco I’ve ever encountered, and will plod slowly along, up hill and down dale, never racing away. The pipe run from steam collector, via regulator and reverser (which I use as throttle too) is immense, and I think it runs almost on pressurised warm condensate, and I think that a narrow exhaust acts as a counter-pressure damper.

 

i used to frown upon oscillators, but this one is a thing apart.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[goldfish]

22 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

Until you get into larger scales, the biggest problem you have is controlling the loco.  Until you get to 16mm and above, you tend to find that once the loco is up to pressure, it's set off and continues haul it's train around, until it needs refuelling, or if it's a pot boiler, in need of more water.

 

Perhaps the problem is that today people coming to steam come with expectations of control based on electric trains rather than those based on clockwork trains. My limited experience with live live steam suggests that it is as adrenaline fueled as running clockwork, and equally rewarding.

[peach james]

3 hours ago, goldfish said:

In the October 1952 edition of THE MODEL RAILWAY CONSTRUCTOR there is an article by M. Drinkwater about replacing the spirit burner on a  BL Mogul with an electrical heating element. The conversion was presumably a success, but unfortunately the PDF I found this in only contains the first page of the article. The author talks of using 24 Volts at 10 Amps, which is not a long way from the 17 Volts and 7 Amps that Hornby used for their 00 live steam locomotives. Does anybody have the complete article, or know if the author was successful with his conversion? It sounds an interesting idea.

Dad remembers seeing them at a show somewhere in his mis-spent youth.  I understand that it used the 24VAC to power the heater, and 12VDC with some filtering, to drive a motor connected to the regulator.  So basically, very close to the Hornby system, only 50+ years earlier.

 

Dad had a pair of 3/4" BL traction engines- His Lordship was the showmans.  Granddad bought them for him in 62-63, after he sold Super Sentinel Tractor Yarna/7529.  I know there is 8mm film of His Lordship pulling my sister around in Mold in 1975...

(and just like my .sig shows, I've got LOTS of experience with steam.  I'm sitting at work where I am the certificate for a pair of 600 hp 100 PSI heating boilers...it's a better gig than the navy was in some ways...)

[rockershovel]

39 minutes ago, goldfish said:

 

Perhaps the problem is that today people coming to steam come with expectations of control based on electric trains rather than those based on clockwork trains. My limited experience with live live steam suggests that it is as adrenaline fueled as running clockwork, and equally rewarding.

 

I had experience of elderly clockwork locos in my childhood, being the youngest of my generation of cousins I inherited all sorts of stuff. It didn’t give rise to life-long affection, shall we say...

[sncf231e]

I think physics do not prevent the construction of larger type of live steam locomotives in 0 gauge. I do have amongst others a Stirling Single and Precedent class in 1 gauge and I assume a larger 0 gauge locomotive (e.g. Pacific type) could have the same size of boiler and cylinders as these smaller 1 gauge loco's. 

By the way: I run spirit and gas fired locomotives, but would never use RC (must be conservatism) and do not mind running after my loco's (which sometimes run quit fast like in this Race to the North:

 

Regards

Fred

Edited December 9, 2019 by sncf231e

[Nearholmer]

R/C is a matter of taste - of the two locos I mentioned earlier, the oscillator has always been manual, and I’ve got the bits to convert the Roundhouse one from radio to manual. So, I prefer manual, but maybe because my little outdoor railway is level, and between one and two feet above ground.

 

As for wild steamers and clockers, yes, there are some, but there are also well-mannered ones.