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1960s tool vans


russ p
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With the new Bachmann crane being imminent I've ordered a red one for my late 60s eastern region layout 

I have one of those Hornby gresley tool Van's but it's not very accurate,  were gresley or Thompson BGs painted red as tool Van's in this period.  The same should apply to riding van too.

Also did they run with a brake van in this period of was the brake van on the riding van sufficient for it 

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I can't comment about Gresleys used in this way, but the Canton breakdown crane ran with 2 mk1 BSKs in the 70s when I worked at the shed; pretty sure I remember red Collett bowenders prior to that.  One was the mess and accommodation coach, with sleeping and cooking facilities, and the other was the tool van, with jacks, packing pieces, and wrecking gear.  A standard 20ton brake van was dedicated to the train and was kept with stove coal aboard and the lamps filled and trimmed ready to go.  The train was permitted to run at 60mph IIRC but was unbraked except for the brake van.  Again IIRC the brake gear and guards compartments had been removed.

 

There were also breakdown vans, again 2 mk1 BSKs for less serious incidents, mess van and tool van with similar equipment.  These were vacuum fitted and the brake gear and guards compartment was fully functional in the mess van.

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For some reason I'd assumed the crane would be braked, probably because the 75t ones were.

Is the one that Bachmann model a braked one?

When there was a 45t steam crane at thornaby it ran with a steel plated Thompson austerity BG

Which according to Paul Bartletts site was converted in 1970 

I think mk1s will be a bit early for my layout which is 67-69 

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Quite a few pictures of breakdown train riding vans on Paul Bartlett’s site:

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/erdepartmentalstock

 

Some are converted from Gresley (or older) stock.   Pretty sure the red livery for breakdown train vehicles dates from at least the 1960s; I’ve got pictures in books of steam locos pulling red breakdown trains.

 

 

 

 

 

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So looking at Worcester's breakdown train

 

A distant view here on Miac

 

http://www.miac.org.uk/worcestershedsrnp.html - 5th photo down

 

Looks like we have crane + Hawkesworth tender (presumably for extra coal and water) + 12t van + 2 coaches + another vehicle which is unclear plus brake van.

 

Heres a close up of one of the coaches from RCTS - ? Collett

 

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/rolling-stock/br/hA87F7DE9

 

That will make an interesting train!

 

 

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I expect it varied considerably from Region to Region but there was an awful lot of Pre-Group stiock in Departmental use well into r the 1960s including on the Western purpose built breakdown tool vans as well as converted vehicles.  The riding van with the Reading 'vans' in 1967 was running on GW 'American' bogies which had been introduced in 1907 and probably ceased to be made new in the 1920s if not earlier.   A lot of vehicles were replaced from the very end of the 1960s onwards and in the early 1970s as depots closedd and older vehicles were no longer required and more modern stock became available for conversion

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14 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

My Eastern Region coaches are here https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/erdepartmentalstock

 

The bright red livery was introduced in the middle of 1959, although it will have taken years for some of the previous black livery to be repainted.

 

Paul

 

There was a black Gresley corridor departmental coach in one of the North bays at York station in November 1975, I remember it from an excursion behind a Class 40  to the recently opened NRM. Don't know what the number was. Possibly a mess vehicle.  That vehicle or a similar one lingered  on in the Leaman Rd engineers sidings into the early 1980s.

 

Also remember a Thompson BGZ in a parcels train on that visit. Happy days.

 

Dava

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I think those gresley coaches that were used in those control trains retained black until disbanded which I believe was about 1980

I understand they were kept undercover and would be deployed in a war,  not that a wooden bodied coach would last long in a nuclear war!

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Hi Russ,

 

Tool Vans were mostly BG's, both Thompson and Gresley types, some of which had the ends cut back with a gantry for lifting heavy equipment in and out of the vans. SPV fish vans were also used to carry wooden packing for the propping girders. Riding vans were converted passenger and passenger brake coaches, mostly Gresley types with various windows plated over and doors in strange positions. If you layout is post steam then your crane may also have a water tank marshalled next to it in the train, these were often old milk tanks or there was one on the southern that had a Traffic Services ferry tank. It would seem that there is a degree of no set rules for what you run with a crane

 

If you can get a look at a copy of Peter Tatlow's Railway Breakdown Cranes Volume 2 section eleven has twenty pages upon tool and riding vans and the types of equipment carried. I'm having lots of fun building all sorts of things from the drawings in the series.

 

Gibbo.

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2 hours ago, russ p said:

Thanks Paul  much appreciated. 

Did brake Van's get painted to match?

Not if you mean freight brake vans. The red was for ex coaching stock in breakdown train use.

 

The vast majority of ex coaching stock used by the engineers would have been painted black until replaced for a little while by Gulf red and then olive green from 1964 or so - we have discussed these liveries frequently. Many of my photos from the 1970s and even 1980s are in black; repainting of such stock was rarely done after the conversion. BTUs on the other hand appear to have been better maintained and the yellow replaced the red - Peter has discussed this in his books and an HMRS Journal article.

 

I must admit I assumed you would have Peter Tatlow's three crane books

 

Paul

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For Hanging Hill's crane I converted two Kirk coaches.  The mess and office coach is an ex first class restaurant, quite a few of these were taken into departmental service, especially with breakdown cranes as the kitchen equipment had be upgraded just before they were withdrawn. The mess coach could be the only means of getting a hot cuppa and maybe something basic to eat, not only for the crane crew but the PW staff, fire crews, police and train crews who attend a major crash if some distance from a town.

 

391.JPG.2ebf2cc121f2db4779dc5c3109cf7f2f.JPG

 

As Gibbo says there was also the tool van with its gantry, I thought I had a photo of it but the best I have got is of it hiding behind the lamp tower. Mine is based of Paul's photos of the one that somehow strayed south of the Thames.

 

hang005.jpg.65bb32600dd8f15bfa20eceb6df52293.jpg

 

They are painted in Gamesworkshop Blood Red which to my eyes looks very close to the red of the breakdown trains.

 

There is a packing van at that is also ex LNER, it is a fish van, the type that preceded the insulfish vans. It is in black.

 

If I get time over the weekend I will take some new photos of the whole breakdown train.

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As threatened last night I have taken some photos of the breakdown train. In fact I have repaired the tool van as it has had a bash and lost a buffer beam and the gantry was broken at one end. You will notice the roofs are not fixed and there is no couplings between the coaches and vans or any under gubbins on the coaches. The roofs, because I was waiting for detail of the insides before fixing. Couplings, well the train was too long for Hanging Hill's fiddle yard so went nowhere. As for the underside of the coaches.....lazy.

 

001a.jpg.479d68339f13a2c1101da81abb15016a.jpg

The Packing Van. This would carry various big lumps of wood which would be used to place under the feet of the crane and under the jacks carried in the tool van.

 

003A.jpg.c4955ccc8eae45554838515d08d5d5cb.jpg

The Mess Coach, corridor side. I mentioned last night how it was valuable not only to the breakdown crew but to others at the scene.

009a.jpg.721b2980e6bb4da29d7c3ee09b48dee2.jpg

The kitchen side, an extra door has been spliced in as on the riding van/mess coach at Hitchin. Note I have made up the numbers and locations as I didn't know better when I done so.

 

005a.jpg.1c8a31af354a1d911e2136075b29e551.jpg

 

011a.jpg.029201ea8af8ac44bdbdf23c52b4a393.jpg

 

Both sides of the Tool Van. There are still some bits that need adding to the planked section.

 

007a.jpg.c693018f63fcc796e0832bf9fa772818.jpg

 

012a.jpg.663070b70746d3e589514a74422c8cb9.jpg

The 30 ton Cowans Sheldon crane that makes up the train.

 

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, russ p said:

Thanks Clive,  that's just what I was looking for. 

Would that crane have been vac fitted or would it require a brake van when running 

Hi Russ,

 

Almost all cranes were through piped and were hand braked only, however the jib runners had vacuum brakes. When in operation cranes were screwed down on their hand brakes and should they travel under their own power then they were braked through the strap brake on the drive train within all the gearing upon the crab, once in position the handbrakes would be applied.

 

The operations that were powered were engaged and disengaged through sliding dog clutches, the four operations are, hoisting of the hook, derricking of the jib, slewing of the jib, traversing of the carriage.

 

Gibbo.

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Thanks gibbo,  

If the cranes were through pipe, a van would be required behind it if the crane was on the back of the train but if it was a through pipe van the tool Van's if fitted would be ok for brake force if they were at the back of the train 

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As SM has said, each region seems to have had its own ideas as to what should go in a breakdown train. The LM trains usually had three converted coaches, one for staff and two for equipment and tools. In the 60s and 70s these would have been ex-LMS types. The Eastern and NE Region trains included old goods vans for packing so only had one or two old coaches, they also often included a Lowmac or Weltrol for carting off the 'Demicks' (vehicles which could not be rerailed - The LM, and some other just put them clear of the lines to recover later). I can't recall noticing a Goods Brake Van in any formation as guard's accommodation and handbrake would be provided in the riding van (coach).

 

Certainly on the LMR, the Sectional/Regional Appendix carried instructions about where in the train a crane should be marshalled (IIRC the instruction covered all types of travelling cranes, not just BD cranes, and varied according to the crane's weight and whether piped or not) such that when travelling, the BD crane should be next to the engine. Obviously when entering or leaving a work site things had to be adapted to suit and the train sorted into the correct order where and when possible for going home at the end of the job so that the (unbraked) crane was not at the end of the train.

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