Symbols on North British wagons

[David Charwelton]

I recently completed building a Parkside o gauge North British van. Included in the transfers were a crescent moon and a quatrefoil. What did these symbols signify? 

[Nick Holliday]

The quatrefoil was a so-called illiterate symbol, and the inverted crescent gives the painting date. See 

https://www.nbrstudygroup.co.uk/nbr/wagons.php for application.

[David Charwelton]

Perhaps I'm being illiterate on this one, but what did the quatrefoil signify? On the crescent was the painting date inscribed on the crescent? I have looked at the link but am no wiser.

[DOCJACOB]

Quatrefoil didn't signify anything really as I understand just that it was an NBR wagon.

 

Staff in those days were not necessarily MENSA material as I understand. 

 

Stafford had the knot. 

 

NBR wagons can be further complicated due to them being "thirled" to specific companies and painted as such and evidence too of L in the livery signifying for locomotive coal 

[Wickham Green]

More likely the 'ruling classes' weren't MENSA material and considered it unnecessary to teach their minions how to read - so they had to go to the effort of painting a symbol on their wagons in addition to lettering. Presumably, though, there were adequate 'super minions' trained to read tare weights, wagon labels etc.

[Nick Holliday]

The LBSCR, and no doubt many other companies, insisted on all their staff being literate, from a fairly early date. There has been much discussion in various places as to the purpose of these marks, which were dispensed with early on most lines, or never applied at all, but some, like the LNWR, with its diamond symbol, persevered with them into the twentieth century. Others, like the NBR and NSR, retained them as some form of logo, perhaps, combined with the usual lettering.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

The LBSCR, and no doubt many other companies, insisted on all their staff being literate, from a fairly early date. There has been much discussion in various places as to the purpose of these marks, which were dispensed with early on most lines, or never applied at all, but some, like the LNWR, with its diamond symbol, persevered with them into the twentieth century. Others, like the NBR and NSR, retained them as some form of logo, perhaps, combined with the usual lettering.

Railway staff may of had to be literate, but the rule didn't apply to other people that may have used the goods yard. For example those loading/unloading wagons.

 

Most railway companies used either the illiterate symbol OR the letters, but not normally both.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, DOCJACOB said:

Quatrefoil didn't signify anything really as I understand just that it was an NBR wagon.

 

Staff in those days were not necessarily MENSA material as I understand. 

 

Stafford had the knot. 

 

NBR wagons can be further complicated due to them being "thirled" to specific companies and painted as such and evidence too of L in the livery signifying for locomotive coal 

 

The Stafford "Knot" was a logo. Stoke might seem backward, but not that backward.

 

It's also worth bearing in mind many people in the area the NBR worked would have spoke Scots Gaelic. That's the reason for illiteracy symbols.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

Is there nae a literal Gaelic translation for 'NB' then ?

[Steamport Southport]

No idea. But I read in a magazine or book a few years ago that was the reason why the NBR persisted with "illiterate" symbols long after they had been discontinued elsewhere.

 

 

 

Jason

[JeremyC]

I've sometimes wondered about the usual explanation for these symbols, one would think if an employee is intelligent enough to understand that a wagon with a quatrefoil on it  belongs to the North British Railway then they could understand that one with the shapes NB (i.e. recognising them as shapes not letters) on it belonged to the same company.

Is it possible they were a small simple emblem that was easy to recognise in a crowded dark goods yard?

Edited December 11, 2019 by JeremyC

[jim.snowdon]

47 minutes ago, JeremyC said:

I've sometimes wondered about the usual explanation for these symbols, one would think if an employee is intelligent enough to understand that a wagon with a quatrefoil on it  belongs to the North British Railway then they could understand that one with the shapes NB (i.e. recognising them as shapes not letters) on it belonged to the same company.

Is it possible they were a small simple emblem that was easy to recognise in a crowded dark goods yard?

They appear to be a feature of only some railways, and in some instances, used on their own, without accompanying company initials. Other railways only ever used their initials. The connection with illiteracy is plausible, but no more than that as your hypothesis that shape recognition applies just as much to large letters as it does geometric devices.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

As Jason's map clearly shows, the only North British line penetrating an area with a significant Gaelic-speaking population was the West Highland line and Mallaig extension. Even there, it would appear that literacy would be in English; any inclination to speak Gaelic at school would be beaten out of a child - see what the National Library of Scotland has to say on the subject. For comparison, the only pre-Grouping railway company notices I have seen that include Welsh are of the "Trespassers will be Prosecuted" variety - and that in a country with a higher level of literacy, including widespread literacy in Welsh, thanks to the combined effects of industrialisation and a long tradition of translation of the Bible.

 

I strongly suspect that the use of the quatrefoil as an identifying mark predates the use of company initials, or at least the large N B - just as the LNWR diamond and L&Y triangle-in-a-circle did. The Midland was the first to adopt large initials, in the 1880s, with other lines following suit, some not until towards the end of the first decade of the 20th century. In J. Hooper, Wagons on the LNER: North British (Irwell Press, 1991), it is stated that the use of the inverted crescent dated from the 1870s and that the date could be the year of construction, major repair, or repaint; this would be supplemented by a date painted on the solebar, prefixed by an A for attention or P for painted, as appropriate. On p. 46 is an official photo of a Pickering-built 8 ton mineral wagon No. 55605, with 96 on the crescent, towards the LH end of the bottom plank, with the tare weight on the cantrail below and 26/8/96 in small script on the solebar below. This wagon has the large (21"?) initials N B and the quatrefoil on the door. This photo is evidently the reference for the NBR-liveried version of the Oxford Rail wagon, though that omits the solebar paint date and has an extraneous side-door spring. On p. 30 is a photo of a D77 8 ton 3-plank wagon, No. 12173 built at Cowlairs in 1886, with 95 in its crescent and a script date at the RH end of the solebar. This isn't completely legible but the caption informs us that it is an overhaul date, so the prefix letter is presumably an A. It certainly hasn't been repainted! The only new grey paint is a rectangular patch on which the tare weight is written. Possibly the quatrefoil has been refreshed but there are no company initials. So one might suspect that the large N B initials came in around 1895/6, though it's possible they were being applied to new construction and full repaints earlier. The only other photos showing wagons without the initials are of an outside-framed bogie No. 18983, 00 on the crescent, and an ancient 8 ton ironstone hopper No. 14776, 03 on the crescent. Neither of these have a visible solebar date and indeed neither shows much sign of paint at all! The bogie does have a very faded quatrefoil. Most of the other photos in the book show wagons with later dates; quite a few have 23 on the crescent and even some 24.

 

Perhaps someone better informed on Scottish pre-Grouping wagons could comment further? Also, I'm wondering if by logo-antedating-initials theory also holds for Knotty wagons? I've got G.F. Chadwick, North Staffordshire Wagons (Wild Swan, 1993) somewhere but can't find it!

 

I really would like to build some North British wagons - types that would have been fit to run to England in c. 1902. You 7 mm folks don't realise how lucky you are having these Parkside kits!

 

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Compound2632

[JeremyC]

On 14/12/2019 at 12:42, Compound2632 said:

.......... .I strongly suspect that the use of the quatrefoil as an identifying mark predates the use of company initials, or at least the large N B -

Interesting to see in the second picture of this post there is an open wagon with a (very faded) quatrefoil and no NB lettering, though there is an N chalked on the near end of the wagon side.

[Compound2632]

There's a parallel topic going on on NBR wagon grey, in which @Penlan has posted a couple of scans of photos that are relevant to this discussion:

 

For convenience, I'm copying his second image here:

 

 

The 4-plank wagon in the foreground has very worn paint on its woodwork. The ironwork looks black. Is that because the metal components were given a coat of black before the wagon was assembled, then overpainted grey, but the grey has worn away?

 

The quatrefoil looks darker than the woodwork. I'm wondering if that is the grey paint that has been protected by the white paint of the quatrefoil, the latter having worn away? It looks as if the tare weight and cresent mark have been painted on an area that was given a touch-up of grey, though all are now very worn. @Penlan, is there a date for the photo? It would be interesting to know how long the wagon has been in traffic since it last saw attention in 1892! Even better, to know when it was built, as that might give a clue to when it was last properly painted!

 

Was it the practice to freshen up solebar numberplates for the convenience of the numbertakers?

 

@JeremyC , you got there before me!

Edited December 15, 2019 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

There is a photo in the North British wagon book of a  3, fixed plank wagon with a similar pale body and dark iron work. The paint date, on this one is 1895 and the dark patch behind the tare is more well defined. Interestingly this wagon is loaded with loco tyres and is buffered up to a loco in a photographic grey livery.

 

So I would suggest that both of these wagon were at some time painted in a pale grey for photographic purposes. This is bourn out by the observation that the paint has rubbed off the buffer beam of the wagon above just in the place where the shunter would lean against it while coupling up. 

[Compound2632]

50 minutes ago, billbedford said:

There is a photo in the North British wagon book of a  3, fixed plank wagon with a similar pale body and dark iron work. The paint date, on this one is 1895 and the dark patch behind the tare is more well defined. Interestingly this wagon is loaded with loco tyres and is buffered up to a loco in a photographic grey livery.

 

So I would suggest that both of these wagon were at some time painted in a pale grey for photographic purposes. This is bourn out by the observation that the paint has rubbed off the buffer beam of the wagon above just in the place where the shunter would lean against it while coupling up. 

 

That is 3-plank wagon No. 12173 that I discussed above. 

[David Charwelton]

Just a quick note to say that I started this topic and have been amazed at the scale of knowledge shown in the replies. Thanks folks, most illuminating.

 

P.S. I didn't know that other companies also used symbols.

 

Regards, David

[James Fitzjames]

Helensburgh engine shed also carried two carved quatrefoils, one each side of the door, giving credence to its being a logo perhaps?

[Compound2632]

So, crescents and dates. 

 

The date on the crescent is the year of construction, major repair, or repaint, whichever is the most recent. Clearly from the condition of so some of the wagons in the photos we've looked at, major repairs were often carried out without any attention being paid to the paintwork! For my c. 1902 date, I'm building a pair of wagons, one in reasonably smart condition - say no more than a couple of years in traffic - but with the other, I'm aiming for the long time no paint look. I'm taking the 4-plank wagon No. 1192 pictured a few posts back as my exemplar. That carries a date of 1892 and I suspect the photo is mid/late-1890s.

 

So the question is, how far back into the 1890s can I go for the date of last major repair?

[billbedford]

The usual repair cycle is often stated as 7-10 years, but I suppose that would depend how often a particular wagon had been left out in the open somewhere exposed, like say Mallaig.