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Hornby mk3 coaches

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Hi, new to rmweb but not to the hobby. I have a query regarding rtr Hornby mk3 stock. It’s my belief that the early Hornby mk3’s were actually mk2 in length so not accurate to scale. Can anyone tell me what year they got their act together and started producing accurate or close to accurate br mk3’s. I’m looking to create a set of intercity swallow mk3’s. 
Thanks 

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The first scale length Hornby Mk3s came out in 1999, though the Intercity Swallow batch didn’t come out until much later - best thing is to only look at eBay listings with clear pictures or when you’re at shows/shops, look out for the tell-tale sign of the old coaches having a clear printed glazing strip, as well as the length on the correct ones being approx 30cm/1ft in length,

 

Hope this helps!

James

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Thanks James, will take a look now. I have seen a couple but was uncertain of the true scale. Couldn’t date the R number either. I guess once I know the catalogue year they were introduced I can check Hornby collectors guide for R numbers. Picking up some late 80’s executive power cars from a friend but I want accurate coaches to run on the set. 
thanks again 

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Jouef made some MK3s that were at the time pretty good and to scale. I seem to recall it was about the same time that they released a Class 40. You may find them second-hand. By a twist of fate, Hornby now own Jouef. The stock reference was 5751, /2 and /3 being the TF, TS and Buffet (TRUB I think).

 

This is what they look like behind the original Hornby HST:

 

DSCF0057.JPG.aa2c2cd6c834ae4a9d73396abdf9c382.JPG

 

By the way, welcome to RMWeb.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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To be strictl;y correct, onl;y the more recent post 1999 Hornby Mk 3s are correct for a HST. The Jouef and current Oxford Rail Mk3s are loco hauled Mk 3As and have different roof detail.

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Thanks Philip. I’ve managed to track down the codes for the Hornby br exec mk3’s. But those do look the part behind the original blue grey Hornby power car. I’m probably going to move my attention to a blue grey set next So may consider the Jouef ones. Then the latest GWR green unit. 

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2 hours ago, James Makin said:

The first scale length Hornby Mk3s came out in 1999, though the Intercity Swallow batch didn’t come out until much later - best thing is to only look at eBay listings with clear pictures or when you’re at shows/shops, look out for the tell-tale sign of the old coaches having a clear printed glazing strip, as well as the length on the correct ones being approx 30cm/1ft in length,

 

Hope this helps!

James

2007 was the first year they produced them in exec livery. Managed to track down the catalogue they were in. 

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The only other question I have regarding these is, what formations were they run in circa 1990?

Thanks

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Have a look on the model railway database, it's not infallible, but a decent starting point.

 

https://www.modelraildatabase.com/coaches/

 

Looks like Mk3 Executive and Swallow start with R4294 in 2007. Some of the later production have tinted windows.

 

Another way is going through sold items on ebay to find the R numbers.

 

Happy hunting...

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6 hours ago, homer3uk said:

Hi, new to rmweb but not to the hobby. I have a query regarding rtr Hornby mk3 stock. It’s my belief that the early Hornby mk3’s were actually mk2 in length so not accurate to scale. Can anyone tell me what year they got their act together and started producing accurate or close to accurate br mk3’s. I’m looking to create a set of intercity swallow mk3’s. 
Thanks 

You can easily tell the shorties at a glance. They have one less set of windows,  only 7 whereas a proper mk3 should have 8!

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3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

You can easily tell the shorties at a glance. They have one less set of windows,  only 7 whereas a proper mk3 should have 8!

I may be wrong but I thought as an interim measure before retooling, they later shortened the printed windows so they had 8 despite still not being full length?

Edited by Hal Nail
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1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

I may be wrong but I thought as an interim measure before retooling, they later shortened the printed windows so they had 8 despite still not being full length?

 

I think that’s correct Hal. As an intermediate measure the short coaches had 8 windows. 

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Yes that's right, they date from mid to late 1980s. However all had 3 figure R numbers so they should be easy enough to avoid.

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16 hours ago, homer3uk said:

The only other question I have regarding these is, what formations were they run in circa 1990?

Thanks

 

Go to Ebay

 

Search Platform 5

 

Ignore shoes and click on books British Rail

 

Motive Power Pocket Books AFAIR have the WR set formations.

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1 hour ago, MJI said:

 

Go to Ebay

 

Search Platform 5

 

Ignore shoes and click on books British Rail

 

Motive Power Pocket Books AFAIR have the WR set formations.

That’s great, thanks

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Insofar as I am aware, the 8 coach formation as per WR was: Power car, 2 x TF, TR, 5 x TO, Power car. The first class coaches were normally placed London end of the formation.

 

The more recent GWR formations (before becoming 'shorties') were: Power car, TG, TD, TR, 4 x TS, Power car. The TG is part of the recently re-vamped Hornby releases, whereas the TD will need to be modified from one of the other TSs. There are lots of photos on t'interwebs showing the modifications and formations.  There is also a site (I can't recall which one) that gave all the coaching stock and power car numbers from which I was able to re-number my coaches to go behind the Hornby GWR power cars. My TD still isn't modified due to colour match issues where the one set of windows in the coach need to be blanked out.

 

Good luck,

 

Philip

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On 05/12/2019 at 22:16, homer3uk said:

The only other question I have regarding these is, what formations were they run in circa 1990?

Thanks

Most were still in 7 coach formation in 1990 with a TGS, so-

PC, TF, TF, Buffet*, TS, TS, TS, TGS, PC

Except LA12-17 which had an extra TS making them 8 coach sets.

 

Sets were LA1-LA18 and LA28-LA40, so a big gap in the middle

 

* PM1-LA10, LA31 and LA36  had 4 window TRB (402xx)

*LA11,PM29, LA30, LA32-LA35 and LA37-LA40 had 4 window TRSB (404xx)

* LA12-LA18 and LA28 had 3 window TRFB (407xx) 

Obviously sets would change catering vehicles due to maintenance requirements

 

The PM or LA is the depot either St Phillips Marsh (Bristol) or Laira (Plymouth), no coaches were allocated to Old Oak Common, only power cars.

 

Oh it all changed by 1991 because they were all 8 coach formations then (PM4-LA40) and some sets had been moved down from the ECML after the 91s took over a lot of the services, but the formations were the same just with an extra TS added except PM5 which had a 4 window TRFK (405xx) added as well as its existing 4 window TRB (402xx).

 

So as you can see there were lots of changes to the 'standard' formations in just a couple of years.

Edited by royaloak
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I am modelling mine pre TGS as the Hornby TGS is ex Lima and everything else is Hornby scale length

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Just don't forget to take the buffers off if you are modelling a HST, the Hornby scale length should just pop out whereas the Lima ones (including the rebooted Lima TGS released by Hornby) need cutting off as they are moulded to the chassis. It always amazes me how many people miss this, I've even seen it at shows where someone has done a really nice detailed model of a HST and forgotten that basic detail. The ONLY exception is for 8 ECML TGS vehicles which had buffers at the luggage van end during the late 1980's and into the early 1990's allowing a loco to be attached at that end of the set.

 

As per RoyalOak above- if you are using RTR Hornby or Lima choose your GW set with care- the buffet cars produced by both are "three window" types of the 403xx and 407xx number range, these were the more common type and after the post ECML electrification reshuffle only a minority of GW sets had 4 window 402xx buffets as the rest were all on Cross Country as 404xx.

 

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2 hours ago, fiftyfour fiftyfour said:

 

As per RoyalOak above- if you are using RTR Hornby or Lima choose your GW set with care- the buffet cars produced by both are "three window" types of the 403xx and 407xx number range, these were the more common type and after the post ECML electrification reshuffle only a minority of GW sets had 4 window 402xx buffets as the rest were all on Cross Country as 404xx.

 

I understand the issue about 3 & 4 window buffet coaches (3 & 4 seating bays of passenger accomodation) but find that comment a little confusing. Did you mean that the majority of GW sets had 4-window buffets after the re-shuffle?

I think all the WCML Mk3A conversions had variations of 4-window configurations, but with different layouts for the catering section. I never remember seeing any of those with 3.

 

I remember seeing lots of buffets with 4 windows & being frustrated that both Hornby & Lima only produced 3-windowed versions.

Hornby have tooled a 4-windowed version recently but only released it in a limited number of liveries.

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41 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I understand the issue about 3 & 4 window buffet coaches (3 & 4 seating bays of passenger accomodation) but find that comment a little confusing. Did you mean that the majority of GW sets had 4-window buffets after the re-shuffle?

I think all the WCML Mk3A conversions had variations of 4-window configurations, but with different layouts for the catering section. I never remember seeing any of those with 3.

 

I remember seeing lots of buffets with 4 windows & being frustrated that both Hornby & Lima only produced 3-windowed versions.

Hornby have tooled a 4-windowed version recently but only released it in a limited number of liveries.

No, I should clarify- about 30% of the GW sets had 402xx buffets so they were the minority, the rest had 407xx three window buffets. So when choosing a prototype set to model in blue/grey, executive, swallow, GW or FGW modellers should choose one that included a 407xx in the formation or come up against the problem of having to hack about with your caterer!

 

You indeed correct- ALL 102xx RFM's have four window bays, there are smaller variations depending on the source of the vehicle, some were converted from 405xx HST kitchen cars, the bulk from 100xx WCML hauled buffets. There is a Hornby 4 window version, I think it may only be available in Arriva Trains Wales, Grand Central and one or two other privatisation era liveries.

 

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Hopefully it may be of interest and it’s ok to reproduce, these 1999 HST formations were listed in Rail Express magazine if the time, and include the buffet car numbers as above, extremely useful for modellers of the period like me, hope this helps!

 

First Great Western

844D613C-D2B5-4803-BB80-06CBBB4FDE9B.jpeg.fb9a0a6ab641a21216fbab1af8db6280.jpeg

 

Virgin Cross Country

E7C8D19F-ABB7-4E92-B2B7-8996A4DCAA10.jpeg.eed625142ea45bdb591956f2af53366c.jpeg

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Same as above for GNER and Midland Mainline, as per the 1999 issues of Rail Express magazine (available as back issues from all good stockists on eBay if needed!)

 

GNER

30B89BAB-3CCF-4EAF-A1CC-FA04ACEE4605.jpeg.52b51bf9361daf7d46211b7912d9fa52.jpeg

 

Midland Mainline

BBB16F38-B1CF-461B-8C8C-84C7ED16DA69.jpeg.59309e34cd697a74e98e455f12a47742.jpeg

 

Of course happy to take down if it infringes any forum rules, just seemed a shame keeping all the old dusty magazine info to myself when it may help some others! 

 

Hope this helps,

James

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If you copy the information out and type it in would that be OK?

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