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Rowsley17D

MR Signalling help required, please

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In the diagram below the turnout is a three-way. The 1930s signal in photos I have seen is as shown in the diagram. It replaced a 3-doll one in the early 1900s. The top line is a platform, then a carriage siding then entrance to a loco shed area. The exits from these are by a home starter for the platform and one ground signal each for the siding and shed exit. The main doll on the bracket is for the platform line I assume but what is the other one for? the shed area or the carriage siding? I'd have thought the shed area so would the line to the carriage siding need a ground signal? Thanks.

 

Signal.jpg.ee7691dcec969282169181967f251f35.jpg

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 Do you have a signal diagram that shows how the points were worked, or can you deduce it from the photos?  As you've drawn the layout it looks, like  there was a set of points where the sidings diverged from the main line, followed by a second set where the two sidings diverged.  Perhaps the second set was originally worked from the box (three dolls) and later simplified to a hand lever with the signal reduced to two dolls: platform road and (either) siding?

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I found this on the SRS web site:

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lmsr/M955.gif

M955.gif

 

I’m not sure of the date of that diagram. It may be later than the 30s because there’s no engine shed access shown at all but it shows a 3 doll signal reading into the carriage siding, platform 6 and platform 5 (I assume). The 1922 map seems to show a simpler pair of separate crossovers, facing then trailing, but the signalling would be similar, I think?

 

Edited by Harlequin

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On 07/12/2019 at 20:01, Rowsley17D said:

In the diagram below the turnout is a three-way. The 1930s signal in photos I have seen is as shown in the diagram.

 

 

Where is it ?

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12 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

I think that's too old. Try the 1922 OS Country series map, which shows some changes in the track layout: Most notably altered crossovers and a signal post just opposite the signal box, which is the one in question I believe.

 

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Could even have been hand worked in Midland days?

That's what I was wondering...

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19 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

I think that's too old. Try the 1922 OS Country series map, which shows some changes in the track layout: Most notably altered crossovers and a signal post just opposite the signal box, which is the one in question I believe.

 

OS maps need correlation, they are prone to errors on railways so I would take it as an indication not a true representation.

 

I posted the link for info really, to make sure this is the area we are talking about.

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16 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

OS maps need correlation, they are prone to errors on railways so I would take it as an indication not a true representation.

 

 

They can be your best guide in the absence of a railway company survey. Comparison between the 25 inch map and railway surveys generally reveal a good level of agreement. Some interpretation in the light of knowledge and understanding of company practice. A rather obvious one in that example is a plain crossing that should evidently be a double slip with one road as the trap for both the carriage siding and the engine shed release road. 

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It is Buxton Midland. Here is a later diagram from BR times.

 

1748287540_Signals01.jpg.8aae64657ddc105fed63e6358ff3c03a.jpg

 

The three doll bracket below the signal box has replaced two balanced brackets. No 9 is to the main platform 5. No 7 to platform 6 and 16 to either the carriage siding or the head-shunt to the shed. The exits from the carriage siding and shed area are by ground signals, so I assume the entrance would also be signalled? But nothing is shown.

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6 is a lot on the junction signal, because station hasn't got much clearance in front of the 7/9/16 bracket he slots the junction signal to give him extra room to work (and the same vice versa where the starter is slotted by the junction box)

 

9 and 7 are straight forward into platforms.

 

16 will route into the sidings over 15 points, and the next points are probably 16 - it will route to either possible end - siding or headshunt.

The signals controlling exit from siding / head shunt are probably 19 and 20 with the headshunt one being yellow, I suspect the points in the head shunt to the right of the crossover leading to the sidings below the turn table will be hand points.

 

If you're asking why the Midland only provided 2 dolls - one for each platform ? - is there a ground signal at the base of the signal routing into the siding/headshunt ?

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I fixed the link to the SRS diagram above. Repeated here for convenience:

M955.gif

Slightly different...

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6 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

If I've got the right place - this photo shows the MR signals which did route into the siding - apologies if I'm in the wrong area.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/buxton/index28.shtml

 

That's the right place and the signal I am enquiring about. This replaced a three doll bracket. The taller doll is to platform 5 so what is the other one to - the carriage siding or the shed area entrance?  Given that there would be a great deal of movement to and from the shed would the shorter doll be for this? As I said earlier, exits from the carriage siding and shed were by ground signals. 

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2 hours ago, Rowsley17D said:

 

That's the right place and the signal I am enquiring about. This replaced a three doll bracket. The taller doll is to platform 5 so what is the other one to - the carriage siding or the shed area entrance?  Given that there would be a great deal of movement to and from the shed would the shorter doll be for this? As I said earlier, exits from the carriage siding and shed were by ground signals. 

 

There's two brackets, one at each end of the excursion platform, the one in the background is signalling a train over the crossover and into the platform, the closer signal looks to be for the (other) platform and the siding lines

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4 hours ago, beast66606 said:

 

There's two brackets, one at each end of the excursion platform, the one in the background is signalling a train over the crossover and into the platform, the closer signal looks to be for the (other) platform and the siding lines

 

Yes, that's right but does the smaller doll on the nearer bracket signal the siding or the entrance to the shed area or does it do both given the close proximity of the box the loco crew and the bobby can consult on which road was needed?

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2 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

 

Yes, that's right but does the smaller doll on the nearer bracket signal the siding or the entrance to the shed area or does it do both given the close proximity of the box the loco crew and the bobby can consult on which road was needed?

 

Probably both, possibly a whistle code for driver / box communications.

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Or the smaller doll reads to the carriage siding and the points to the engine shed are hand operated...?

 

It would be a strange ommission to make the effort to provide a signal for the carriage siding but not the shed headshunt only a few yards further on if those points were operated from the box.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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It will do both. Most moves from it will be a move already agreed between the shunter, driver and signalman as appropriate or as Beast says a whistle code for an engine to shed.

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Thank you one and all for your input. I'll come down on the "small doll for both roads" side of things. Photos, which there are few, don't appear to show hand operated points in that area. It will give added operational interest to have engines waiting by the bracket and whistling for the road.

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There was in the mid sixty's in the "Model Railway News" several articles on modelling Buxton, if   you can locate them, they may well answer your questions.

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9 hours ago, micknich2003 said:

There was in the mid sixty's in the "Model Railway News" several articles on modelling Buxton, if   you can locate them, they may well answer your questions.

 

Thanks. Things were very much coming to an end on the Midland side in the mid sixties. The line to the former loco/coal yard had gone and the signalling had changed to UQ. I'd be very interested in any photos that show the platform side of the station building though as these are quite rare views.

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On 10/12/2019 at 09:18, Rowsley17D said:

 

 

Thanks. Things were very much coming to an end on the Midland side in the mid sixties. The line to the former loco/coal yard had gone and the signalling had changed to UQ. I'd be very interested in any photos that show the platform side of the station building though as these are quite rare views.

I may well have a few photos in the various books that I have on Buxton's railways.

 

Regards

Nick

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Hi Nick, any help would be gratefully received. I'm in the mood for building modelling at the moment, a change from making signals.

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