Airport idea

[Pacific231G]

Looking at these and given the general vastness of even small aerodromes it would make sense to do what we often do with docks and quays which is to put the viewer's position on the large empty bit and model what you would see from there. You could include the end of a runway with the railway behind it but the difficulty there is that aircraft don't hang around on the runway.  Once cleared to enter and line-up, the take-off clearance usually comes very soon,  sometimes in the same clearance.

Andy Hopper's OO finescale Manston is worth looking at. I think he's still exhibiting it and there are some photos of it here https://www.flickr.com/photos/kentish/12058838153

It was based on the idea of Manston developing as a second tier regional airport served by a rebuilt branch line.

[Philou]

@The Johnster Ah ..... Pengam Airport. As a child of about three years age, I flew into Pengam in a Dragon Rapide from Paris. It had wicker seats still! All I really remember of the flight was coming over Cardiff Docks at a low height to land, and looking down at all the ships funnels - one that in particular sticks in my mind was a red one with black smoke coming out of it. Would have been about 1953. You couldn't do that today as there is now no airport and neither are there any ships!

 

BTW Johnster, did you know TE Willows (Willows Avenue that runs alongside one of the old runways, is named after him - Cardiff man too) was the first to cross the English Channel in a gas balloon? On arrival in France, the customs wanted to charge him import duty on the hydrogen in his gas-bag!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

[The Johnster]

Ernest Willows also designed and built airships, and flew one from London to Paris direct, the first powered aircraft to achieve this feat.  He flew from Pengam Moors, which is where Pengam Airport was 'built', a loose use of the term, in the late 20s.  He designed the 'blimps', tethered airships used by the British army in the Great War for artillery spotting.  There is a pub named after him in City Road; funnily enough I was there yesterday evening!

[Philou]

I know this going off-topic, but here's another one you @The Johnster concerning blimps. My grandfather who was in a reserved occupation during WWII was also on duty with an ack-ack unit in Cardiff, based somewhere near Queen Street station when one of the 'blimps', during filling with gas (don't know whether hydrogen or helium), broke free of its tethering and escaped up Richmond Road. After much 'big words' and running after it they managed to bring it back. Apparently the problem wasn't so much the blimp itself but the cables dangling from it that could be lethal and cause much damage.

 

Sorry OP, a bit of useless information. However, to bring it back OT, the end of one of the runways at Pengam Moors Airport would have co-incided with the marshalling yards serving Cardiff Docks. The yards were part of the former Cardiff Railway. Though outside your time period, there's no harm in creating a 'what if?' situation under Rule 1.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[KeithMacdonald]

Pengam Moors Airport

 

Quote

Opened as a civilian airport in 1931. Also known at various times as Splott Aerodrome, Cardiff Municipal Airport, RAF Cardiff, 43 Maintenance Unit

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Pengam_Moors

 

Terry Wogan (Lord of Splott) would have been proud.

 

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/city-honour-sir-terry-wogan-2064786

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, Philou said:

I know this going off-topic, but here's another one you @The Johnster concerning blimps. My grandfather who was in a reserved occupation during WWII was also on duty with an ack-ack unit in Cardiff, based somewhere near Queen Street station when one of the 'blimps', during filling with gas (don't know whether hydrogen or helium), broke free of its tethering and escaped up Richmond Road. After much 'big words' and running after it they managed to bring it back. Apparently the problem wasn't so much the blimp itself but the cables dangling from it that could be lethal and cause much damage.

 

Sorry OP, a bit of useless information. However, to bring it back OT, the end of one of the runways at Pengam Moors Airport would have co-incided with the marshalling yards serving Cardiff Docks. The yards were part of the former Cardiff Railway. Though outside your time period, there's no harm in creating a 'what if?' situation under Rule 1.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Apparently the blimps, used as ‘Barrage Balloons’ to deter bombers with cables that could cut the wings off ‘em (no wonder they were lethal trailing across the ground, where they played havoc with telephone and such), used to do this fairly frequently.   

[Pacific231G]

Looking again at the Manston layout and suggestions to have a rail/air interface for goods I don' t think that ever happened. Apart from a few very specialist applications, such as deliveries into remote locations and of course airmail, air cargo didn't really develop until after the war. By then (and possibly before) there did seem to be an attitude in many countries, including Britain, that aviation belonged to the sleek modern future along with road transport, urban motorways and universal car ownership. Raillways were yesterday's transport and doomed to a steady inevitable decline so why would anyone bother to connect them together.

So, airline passengers, either wealthy or travelling on someone's official business, would surely arrive by car, taxi or possibly airline bus and, apart from deliveries of fuel (with rail served terminals at a number of airports but often some distance away)  who on earth would unload cargo from a  plane and put it on a train.

 

The result was that airports that did have a rail connection were alongside an existing mainline as in the case of Southampton (1966) and Birmingham (1976) Branches built specifically to serve airports only came with the development of mass air travel, as with Stanstead, and even then rather slowly; even the relatively short extension of the Picadilly Line to Heathrow didn't happen until 1977. The exceptions were Gatwick which had its own station from 1935 (though the original station also served the Tinsley Green housing development) and Le Touquet's short lived example built for a very specific service.

 

Shoreham (now Brighton City Airport) had been a WW1 RFC aerodrome but siting the Brighton Hove and Worthing Joint Municipal Airport there (along with its art deco terminal) may have been influenced by its proximity to the Brighton-Portsmouth line and there was a halt serving it from 1935-1940. Several of the pre-war municipal airports were close to railways including Portsmouth  and Cardiff Pengam Moors but I don't know if any others had an airport station or halt, Southend certainly didn't until 2012, The network of internal air routes between Britain's cities never really developed as expected. Many of the municipal airports were also on restricted sites too small for modern commercial aircraft  so eventually closed or became airfields for GA while others moved to the sites of much larger WW2 military aerodromes to become and remain regional airports  often miles from the nearest railway as with Bristol Lulsgate  

 

So, for the OP's modern situation

A dedicated airport branch would imply a fairly major airport like Heathrow, Manchester, Stanstead or Newcastle (on the Tyne Metro) with perhaps a corner of it modelled.

A smallish regional airport in the range of a Southend or a Southampton might have an airport station as a stop on an existing line and part of the main facilities might be modelled. 

A smaler primarily GA aerodrome might well have a railway running alongside it, as with White Waltham or Shoreham, but there would be no dedicated rail connection.

 

[Philou]

Before we leave Pengam/Splott aerodrome, did you know that at one time (1930s) the air service between Cardiff and Weston-s-Mare was the busiest in the UK.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[KeithMacdonald]

11 minutes ago, Philou said:

Before we leave Pengam/Splott aerodrome, did you know that at one time (1930s) the air service between Cardiff and Weston-s-Mare was the busiest in the UK.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

Yes

 

Quote

 

British Air Navigation Co Ltd initially operated its services using de Havilland Fox Moths and de Havilland Dragons. In April 1933 Great Western Railway Air Services began flights to Haldon, Plymouth and Birmingham using Westland Wessex aircraft. In 1934, Great Western Railway Air Services was amalgamated with several other small airlines into the new Railway Air Services and upgraded to de Havilland DH.89 Dragon Rapides, the same aircraft type that was flown by Western Airways.

 

In 1933, Western Airways launched the service to Weston-super-Mare, with 13 flights each way daily at a charge of 6 shillings and 6 pence (thirty two and a half pence - or £16.70 in today's terms), only later extending to Bournemouth and France. Railway Air Services resumed peacetime flights in early 1946, now using its newly acquired fleet of Avro Ansons and ex-RAF Douglas DC-3s.

 

In 1939, the UK's Air Transport Licensing Authority came into being and gave Western Airways the monopoly for all airline flights into and out of Cardiff. At various times a range of commercial service flights were introduced. In 1932 British Air Navigation Co Ltd offered twice daily return flights between Cardiff and Whitchurch Aerodrome, Bristol. The following year Great Western Railway Air Services began a triangular service between Cardiff, Little Haldon, Devon and Plymouth; while Western Airways operated to Weston-super-Mare (and later to Christchurch Aerodrome, Bournemouth). In 1934 Great Western Railway Air Services started serving Elmdon Aerodrome, Birmingham; and Railway Air Service Company connected Cardiff to Roborough Aerodrome, Plymouth and Speke Aerodrome, Liverpool. In 1935 Western Airways commenced international flights to France, with services to Le Touquet Airport and to Le Bourget Aerodrome in Paris.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Pengam_Moors

[Pacific231G]

This amused me.

https://www.amazon.com/Scenery-Sheets-Model-Airport-Runway/dp/B07GFCGTYC?ref_=ast_bbp_dp

They also do an HO version but it's obvious that the designer knows nothing about runways as the QDM numbers for the two ends are 01 and 02 respectively. The runway is also about a scale 160m long!

Edited December 15, 2019 by Pacific231G

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Some one mentioned the Hornby control tower, But there is also the Airfix control tower as well. Would work well for a small local aerodrome or gliding club.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?source=hp&ei=7lryXd-dC-uTjLsP76uw6AU&q=airfix+control+tower+kit&oq=airfix+control+tower&gs_l=psy-ab.1.4.0l3j0i22i30l7.12309.20014..24099...0.0..0.122.1430.20j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..0i131j0i10.kXDBfM9xKhI#spf=1576164103133

Plus the associated refuelling set that could be modified.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/254212010211?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=254212010211&targetid=522577523943&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1007430&poi=&campaignid=7412990545&mkgroupid=76068633770&rlsatarget=pla-522577523943&abcId=1139356&merchantid=115143176&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjq7s1rWw5gIVS7DtCh08ggVmEAQYBCABEgIhVvD_BwE

Edited December 12, 2019 by cypherman

[Banger Blue]

To go with Andy’s photos of Southend, the aforementioned RAF Brize Norton & the Fairford Branch weren’t immune from that sort of thing:

 

The two taxiways at Brize Norton that crossed the railway were secured with large gates and could only be opened with an ‘Annett key’ that had to be released by the Brize Norton & Bampton Signalman.

 

[wombatofludham]

On 12/12/2019 at 13:13, Pacific231G said:

Looking again at the Manston layout and suggestions to have a rail/air interface for goods I don' t think that ever happened. Apart from a few very specialist applications, such as deliveries into remote locations and of course airmail, air cargo didn't really develop until after the war. By then (and possibly before) there did seem to be an attitude in many countries, including Britain, that aviation belonged to the sleek modern future along with road transport, urban motorways and universal car ownership. Raillways were yesterday's transport and doomed to a steady inevitable decline so why would anyone bother to connect them together.

So, airline passengers, either wealthy or travelling on someone's official business, would surely arrive by car, taxi or possibly airline bus and, apart from deliveries of fuel (with rail served terminals at a number of airports but often some distance away)  who on earth would unload cargo from a  plane and put it on a train.

 

The result was that airports that did have a rail connection were alongside an existing mainline as in the case of Southampton (1966) and Birmingham (1976) Branches built specifically to serve airports only came with the development of mass air travel, as with Stanstead, and even then rather slowly; even the relatively short extension of the Picadilly Line to Heathrow didn't happen until 1977. The exceptions were Gatwick which had its own station from 1935 (though the original station also served the Tinsley Green housing development) and Le Touquet's short lived example built for a very specific service.

 

Shoreham (now Brighton City Airport) had been a WW1 RFC aerodrome but siting the Brighton Hove and Worthing Joint Municipal Airport there (along with its art deco terminal) may have been influenced by its proximity to the Brighton-Portsmouth line and there was a halt serving it from 1935-1940. Several of the pre-war municipal airports were close to railways including Portsmouth  and Cardiff Pengam Moors but I don't know if any others had an airport station or halt, Southend certainly didn't until 2012, The network of internal air routes between Britain's cities never really developed as expected. Many of the municipal airports were also on restricted sites too small for modern commercial aircraft  so eventually closed or became airfields for GA while others moved to the sites of much larger WW2 military aerodromes to become and remain regional airports  often miles from the nearest railway as with Bristol Lulsgate  

 

So, for the OP's modern situation

A dedicated airport branch would imply a fairly major airport like Heathrow, Manchester, Stanstead or Newcastle (on the Tyne Metro) with perhaps a corner of it modelled.

A smallish regional airport in the range of a Southend or a Southampton might have an airport station as a stop on an existing line and part of the main facilities might be modelled. 

A smaler primarily GA aerodrome might well have a railway running alongside it, as with White Waltham or Shoreham, but there would be no dedicated rail connection.

 

 

All correct of course, but it isn't beyond credulity to imagine a situation where an existing branch was extended, using inter-war cheap Government loans to create jobs, to serve a new municipal aerodrome.  The Southern built the Allhallows on Sea branch in the 1930s with the hope of stimulating a housing boom which never materialised, which is the scenario I'm planning for a possible airfield station - a fictional Southern Electric branch extension to serve an area of speculative seaside housing plus the new municipal aerodrome.  

Even better, Allhallows on Sea station building looked like a 1920s concrete bungalow, so you could probably kit-bash the venerable Dapol ex-Airfix bungalow to give a similar result!

[Pacific231G]

10 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

 

All correct of course, but it isn't beyond credulity to imagine a situation where an existing branch was extended, using inter-war cheap Government loans to create jobs, to serve a new municipal aerodrome.  The Southern built the Allhallows on Sea branch in the 1930s with the hope of stimulating a housing boom which never materialised, which is the scenario I'm planning for a possible airfield station - a fictional Southern Electric branch extension to serve an area of speculative seaside housing plus the new municipal aerodrome.  

Even better, Allhallows on Sea station building looked like a 1920s concrete bungalow, so you could probably kit-bash the venerable Dapol ex-Airfix bungalow to give a similar result!

That makes sense Mark. Wasn't the Lee-on-Solent branch similarly inspired by housing/seaside development in the late 19th C?  Though it closed  to passengers in 1931 (and to goods in 1935) the story might have been different had it been able to offer a through service to London  If it had thrived and the site of RNAS Lee-on-Solent  (HMS Daedelus)  had become a civil aerodrome instead with longer runways than the actual and long since closed Portsmouth airport you could cerrtainly envisage it being extended to a new terminus to serve both the airport and new housing development on the coast.

 

I'm trying to come up with similar credible excuses to give a marine terminus like Weymouth or Dieppe a wider range of traffic than a couple of  boat trains and goods workings each day. 

Edited December 14, 2019 by Pacific231G

[davefromacrossthepond]

At one time Walthers had a 1/87 kit of a DC3/C47. I believe also a P51. Hard to find but every now and then I see one at a show or on eBay.

[KeithMacdonald]

I've just thought of an almost-aircraft option : Pegwell Bay Hoverport, with a branch of the line to Ramsgate.

 

http://www.jameshovercraft.co.uk/hover/hoverports/pegwell_bay_hoverport.php

 

http://www.jameshovercraft.co.uk/hover/srn4/srn4_pegwell_bay.php

 

But the only model of the SR.N4 hovercraft I can find is 1:144 scale.

 

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

I've just thought of an almost-aircraft option : Pegwell Bay Hoverport, with a branch of the line to Ramsgate.

 

http://www.jameshovercraft.co.uk/hover/hoverports/pegwell_bay_hoverport.php

 

http://www.jameshovercraft.co.uk/hover/srn4/srn4_pegwell_bay.php

 

But the only model of the SR.N4 hovercraft I can find is 1:144 scale.

 

How about the much smaller SRN6.......I remember as a lad going on the Seaspeed (British Railways) service from Cowes, as I recall (bit misty though) the train wasn’t far from the  Hovercraft stage.

Edited December 14, 2019 by boxbrownie

[KeithMacdonald]

15 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

To go with Andy’s photos of Southend, the aforementioned RAF Brize Norton & the Fairford Branch weren’t immune from that sort of thing:

 

The two taxiways at Brize Norton that crossed the railway were secured with large gates and could only be opened with an ‘Annett key’ that had to be released by the Brize Norton & Bampton Signalman.

 

 

I guess that must of been at the east end of the runway where it converges on the rail track?

 

 

 

The two taxiways at Brize Norton get a mention in the "Level Crossing Stupidity" thread:

 

On 26/09/2017 at 23:04, Banger Blue said:

The airfield was extended during the life of the branch, its mentioned in the Brize Norton / Carterton pages on Martin Loaders website (see link in post#2250)

 

It's also mentioned about USAF jets having to cross the operational Railway from their dispersal pads in Harold Gasson's book 'Signalling Days' (chapter 5, page 88)

 

I've never heard mention about the huge gates before, none of the above mentions them at all but it would make sense, especially given the Americans propensity for 'High Security'.

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by KeithMacdonald

[Banger Blue]

24 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

I guess that must of been at the east end of the runway where it converges on the rail track?

No, the aircraft crashed between Brize Norton Station & Carterton Station. At the time RAF Brize Norton had two Runways:

 

 

The aircraft would have come off the runway running top to bottom of the photograph.

 

This is a screenshot from google maps, red line is the old second runway, red circle is the area where the aircraft must have come down. Circled is Carterton & Brize Norton Stations.

 

 

 

[KeithMacdonald]

Here's an even crazier airport/railway modelling idea : Stonehenge Railway Station and Stonehenge Airport.

 

Stonehenge Light Railway

http://www.sarsen.org/2013/03/the-stonehenge-railway.html

 

Combined with Stonehenge "airport"

 

Quote

The aerodrome had two camps, which lay on either side of a take-off and landing ground. The Main (or Day) Camp, only about 300 metres west of Stonehenge, straddled the London to Exeter road (now the A303) and contained the main technical buildings, offices and accommodation blocks. The Night Camp, which included two ‘permanent’ hangars to house the massive Handley Page bombers, lay to the north-west, close to what is now the Fargo Plantation drop-off point between the visitor centre and the stones.

 

https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/history-and-stories/first-world-war-aerodrome/

 

 

[Satan's Goldfish]

17 hours ago, Banger Blue said:

To go with Andy’s photos of Southend, the aforementioned RAF Brize Norton & the Fairford Branch weren’t immune from that sort of thing:

 

The two taxiways at Brize Norton that crossed the railway were secured with large gates and could only be opened with an ‘Annett key’ that had to be released by the Brize Norton & Bampton Signalman.

 

 

I'd always assumed that part of the airfield was built after the closure of the railway, very interesting to know that wasn't the case.

[Pacific231G]

On 13/12/2019 at 22:54, Banger Blue said:

To go with Andy’s photos of Southend, the aforementioned RAF Brize Norton & the Fairford Branch weren’t immune from that sort of thing:

 

The two taxiways at Brize Norton that crossed the railway were secured with large gates and could only be opened with an ‘Annett key’ that had to be released by the Brize Norton & Bampton Signalman.

 

I'm having to dredge my memory but I remember exploring the Fairford branch with my father not long after it closed in 1962 . This was probably in 1963 when the track had been lifted but the station buidings were still intact and quite a lot of stuff was still on site. Around the site of Brize Norton station was a good place to experience the RAF Transport Command VC10s taking off from runway 25 (26 now) , You felt them as much as heard them, but I think the trackbed was still open as it passed just outside the southern perimeter and the taxiway crossing gates were firmly shut. There may have been inset track remaining  on the two crossings themseleves.   My impression, which may well have been mistaken, was that the RAF weren't using the dispersal area south of the railway though it's certainly part of the base now.

 

OT but a year or so later, a favourite spot for train watching by my friends and me was the former Wolvercote crossing in north Oxford where we regularly saw and heard the Witney blanket train (Witney had a number of woollen mills)  usually hauled by the same 81F (Oxford) pannier tank. I say heard because the poor loco was clearly near the end of its life and clanking apallingly. Not being a spotter I'm afraid I have no idea of its number. The photo of the last train on this page http://www.fairfordbranch.co.uk/History.htm

is exactly as I remember the location but the "blanket" usually ran towards Witney on the down goods loop. I don't remember ever seeing the up "blanket".

Edited December 15, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

10 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Here's an even crazier airport/railway modelling idea : Stonehenge Railway Station and Stonehenge Airport.

 

Stonehenge Light Railway

http://www.sarsen.org/2013/03/the-stonehenge-railway.html

 

Combined with Stonehenge "airport"

 

 

https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/stonehenge/history-and-stories/first-world-war-aerodrome/

 

 

That's excellent Keith. I had no idea there were military railways in that area.

[boxbrownie]

9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

That's excellent Keith. I had no idea there were military railways in that area.

Salisbury Plain........

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

Salisbury Plain........

On Salisbury Plain of course David,  but not around Stonehenge.