SR workings north

[Clearwater]

Hi

 

I was just looking at the Warwickshire Railways site at a picture of an-ex LSWR T9 at Leamington Spa.  This is stated as an infrequent occurrence but I was wondering how far north and what type of SR locos might have made it as far as Wolverhampton.  Is there any photographic or documentary evidence?

 

Thanks in advance

 

David

[Tony Cane]

You do not give a times scale but during WWII may Southern locomotives were loaned to the other companies.

The record for furthest north has to go to a D1 tank locomotive used as a station pilot at Wick.

[Wickham Green]

Oxford was the normal loco change for inter-regionals - but if a GWR replacement wasn't available for some reason the Southern one might have worked further north : as Tony says, we don't know the date of your T9 but I'd guess anything this size would, indeed, have been unlikely after the mid twenties when larger machines would have been the norm to Oxford.

[Oldddudders]

Football specials and similar one-off services might occasionally have sent SR locos further north. Also a one-off, 34102 Lapford graced New Street one day in Autumn 1960, due to flooding in the west country, bringing a diverted Pines Express. It spent the night at Bescot, I think, and worked back southbound the next day

[RFS]

Indeed football specials often took SR locos northwards. Here's 34054 at Nottingham Victoria in 1963. There were two other specials that day headed by 34102 and 34042. 

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p978695097/e3bb17799

 

And Railtours were another way, for example here's 35012 at Leeds Holbeck. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by RFS

[Wickham Green]

Ah ..... https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls212.htm ..... easy enough to find.

 

I THINK there's an 'E' prefix between 'SOUTHERN' and '725' so the loco was painted before 1931 - but it's not pristine so 'mid-thirties' will do ! ...... presumably only a relatively light train was worked north : certainly in later years an 'Arthur' would be the smallest loco you'd expect to see on an inter-regional - but maybe they were lighter in the thirties.

[Nearholmer]

Interesting photo.

 

As regards a T9 on big a big express: the train might have been quite heavy, but awfully slow by later standards. A 4-4-0 can get a mighty old train rolling; I’m always amazed by pictures showing huge cavalcades behind them, which is a testament to tractive effort. But, limited boiler capacity and cylinder dimensions would limit power output, which is the decider of speed for a given load.

 

Maybe this one lost time, or maybe the schedule was so relaxed that it didn’t!

[TheSignalEngineer]

There's another picture of a T9 on Warwickshire Railways,  passing Hatton with a train of what appears to be all non-corridor stock. It was in very clean Southern livery and is before the new South box was built in 1937. 

The example of 34102 on the Pines was the only reported appearance of a Bulleid on a normal setvice train on Lickey. It reportedly went to Saltley for servicing as was usual with that working.

Edited December 9, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[TravisM]

As someone else posted, I think Oxford was the furthest north that SR steam power regularly appeared though I think Woodford Halse on the GC was another regular haunt. 

[pH]

There's the occasion on 27th April 1963 when Southampton FC played Manchester United at Villa Park in the FA Cup semi-final. Several specials ran from the Southampton area, and the SR locos ran through.

 

Here are a few pictures:

 https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj1886.htm

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-rebuilt-bulleid-pacific-at-birmingham-snow-hill-on-27th-april-1963-101895663.html

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhj1884.htm

https://flic.kr/p/6VuXZN (page contains details of the locos used on all the specials, and the routings)

Edited December 9, 2019 by pH

[bike2steam]

19 hours ago, Clearwater said:

Hi

 what type of SR locos might have made it as far as Wolverhampton.  Is there any photographic or documentary evidence?

 

Thanks in advance

 

David

 

 Yes Bulleid light pacifics, no photographic, or documentary evidence, but I've had the good fortune to witness 34005 amble thro' Wolverhampton Low Level light engine to Oxley shed one summer Saturday in 1965. Ned Williams had two soft cover books published 'Wolverhampton Railway Albums Volumes 1 & 2', in volume 1 is a pic of 34064 on a special from Paddington to Ruabon in 1963, and volume 2 has a pic of 34087 on Oxley shed, as well as a pic of Eastleigh's 'Pocket Rocket' 76009 on a freight thro' Wolverhampton. Sorry Jools but Banbury saw regular Southern steam on cross-country workings, especially the last nine months of cross country steam from the Southern, to the end of the 1966 summer timetable, I witnessed both 34005 (again), and 34034 on the last day of those workings at Banbury. Also check out the date of 27th April 1963 on this website;- http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/

Edited December 9, 2019 by bike2steam

[Nearholmer]

Southern Railway vs BR(S) have different answers, I’m pretty sure.

 

Under real SR, Oxford was the normal limit I believe, which is why that photo is especially interesting.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[1165Valour]

Does anyone know if any of these practices apply to the Pre-Grouping years? 

[Right Away]

1 hour ago, pH said:

There's the occasion on 27th April 1963 when Southampton FC played Manchester United at Villa Park in the FA Cup semi-final. Several specials ran from the Southampton area, and the SR locos ran through.

 

... on 28th September of the same year the Talyllyn Railway AGM special from Paddington to Towyn was hauled as far as Shrewsbury by the Giesl ejector fitted No 34064. Reputedly one of the best performing unrebuilt LIght Pacifics following its exhaust conversion, in the unfamiliar hands of the Western Region crew, the journey was reported as being quite a miserable affair. 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, GWRSwindon said:

Does anyone know if any of these practices apply to the Pre-Grouping years? 

Well, the LBSCR had a deal with the LNWR, so the Brighton's I3 class 4-4-2 tanks ran through to Rugby on a joint service called the Sunny South Special. As an aside, so impressed was the mighty North Western with the frugal consumption and spirited performance of the superheated Brighton tank that it influenced their next generation of loco designs. 

[rab]

38 minutes ago, Right Away said:

... on 28th September of the same year the Talyllyn Railway AGM special from Paddington to Towyn was hauled as far as Shrewsbury by the Giesl ejector fitted No 34064. Reputedly one of the best performing unrebuilt LIght Pacifics following its exhaust conversion, in the unfamiliar hands of the Western Region crew, the journey was reported as being quite a miserable affair. 

 

 

 

Looks strange to see a spamcan with reporting numbers instead of disc headcodes

[rab]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Interesting photo.

 

As regards a T9 on big a big express: the train might have been quite heavy, but awfully slow by later standards. A 4-4-0 can get a mighty old train rolling; I’m always amazed by pictures showing huge cavalcades behind them, which is a testament to tractive effort. But, limited boiler capacity and cylinder dimensions would limit power output, which is the decider of speed for a given load.

 

Maybe this one lost time, or maybe the schedule was so relaxed that it didn’t!

But they were nicknamed 'Greyhounds'.

I appreciate that probably came about

because of their performance on

lighter trains though 

[Nearholmer]

Precisely.

 

They were significantly smaller in all vital statistics than the KA, except the wheels, which I think were slightly larger.

 

The big driving wheels must have made them a bit spin prone when starting a heavy load too...... I bet the drivers had to handle them carefully.

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Does anyone know if any of these practices apply to the Pre-Grouping years? 

I don't know about pre-grouping at Snow Hill but I've seen it reported that it was a normal occurence in the 1920s and 1930s. 

Moving on to 1963, Dave Hill has recently posted a picture to a FB group of 34004 at Snow Hill in July 1963 working what I think is a Bournemouth-Birkenhead SO train. Another picture of it then came to light taken at Oxley shed, so it looks as if Oxford didn't have a loco to work it forward to Wolverhampton.

 

[Nearholmer]

It was normal to change engines at Oxford in the 20s and 30s.

 

I'm unsure of where the change took place before that - possibly Basingstoke, but I will try to confirm/deny by looking closely at station timings in Bradshaw.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Southern Railway vs BR(S) have different answers, I’m pretty sure.

 

Under real SR, Oxford was the normal limit I believe, which is why that photo is especially interesting.

There are quite a few photos on Warwickshire Railways of different SR 4-4-0s between the wars so obviously not that rare.

 

 

 

Notice the top one is GWR stock, the bottom, SR stock.

Edited December 9, 2019 by melmerby

[RFS]

23 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

I don't know about pre-grouping at Snow Hill but I've seen it reported that it was a normal occurence in the 1920s and 1930s. 

Moving on to 1963, Dave Hill has recently posted a picture to a FB group of 34004 at Snow Hill in July 1963 working what I think is a Bournemouth-Birkenhead SO train. Another picture of it then came to light taken at Oxley shed, so it looks as if Oxford didn't have a loco to work it forward to Wolverhampton.

 

 

And the reverse often happened too. Here's a Black 5 running into East Croydon with a train for Brighton.

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p883082520/e2e67e045

[pH]

1 hour ago, RFS said:

 

And the reverse often happened too. Here's a Black 5 running into East Croydon with a train for Brighton.

 

https://railphotoprints.uk/p883082520/e2e67e045

 

Interesting list of 'foreign' engines noted on the Southern Region:

http://www.southernregion.net/strangers.html

 

and the Scottish Region car sleepers to Eastbourne and Newhaven often had Black 5s. There's a reference to that here - https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html

 

Edit to add - 'Steam Days' for February 1998 has an article on the Seaford branch and the port of  Newhaven, which mentions these car sleepers (there was also one fron Newcastle). They were diverted to Newhaven in 1964, and according to the article were booked for a Stanier 5 from Willesden shed, though there is a photo of a Saltley engine on the Glasgow train in the article. The author says it's possible that the last steam engine to visit the Seaford branch in regular service was a Stanier 5 on one of these trains.

Edited December 9, 2019 by pH

[TheSignalEngineer]

23 minutes ago, melmerby said:

There are quite a few photos on Warwickshire Railways of different SR 4-4-0s between the wars so obviously not that rare.

Two more on the same page in fact, a D15 and a T9 both on the Up near Bentley Heath 1925/26. The two shown above are on the Down  in the mid/late 1920s before the quadrupling.

[pH]

5 hours ago, bike2steam said:

Banbury saw regular Southern steam on cross-country workings, especially the last nine months of cross country steam from the Southern, to the end of the 1966 summer timetable, I witnessed both 34005 (again), and 34034 on the last day of those workings at Banbury. Also check out the date of 27th April 1963 on this website;- http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/

 

Banbury may have been the last place that 34051 'Winston Churchill' worked in BR service. I saw it dead in Banbury shed on 9 September 1965, and one of the shed staff said it had failed and they weren't sure if it was going to be repaired or not. It was officially withdrawn later that month.