SR workings north

[roythebus]

1 hour ago, pH said:

 

Interesting list of 'foreign' engines noted on the Southern Region:

http://www.southernregion.net/strangers.html

 

and the Scottish Region car sleepers to Eastbourne and Newhaven often had Black 5s. There's a reference to that here - https://www.derbysulzers.com/peakseverywhere.html

 

Edit to add - 'Steam Days' for February 1998 has an article on the Sleaford branch and the port of  Newhaven, which mentions these car sleepers (there was also one fron Newcastle). They were diverted to Newhaven in 1964, and according to the article were booked for a Stanier 5 from Willesden shed, though there is a photo of a Saltley engine on the Glasgow train in the article. The author says it's possible that the last steam engine to visit the Sleaford branch in regular service was a Stanier 5 on one of these trains.

Sleaford or Seaford?

[pH]

6 minutes ago, roythebus said:

Sleaford or Seaford?

 

Seaford - sorry! I've edited the original post.

[Clearwater]

Thanks all.  My focus had been on the pre 1948 and ideally pre 1939 time period.  Fully aware that coaching stock in particular worked through from the south coast to the north but interested in the marginally less common locomotive moves.

 

David

[Clearwater]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

There are quite a few photos on Warwickshire Railways of different SR 4-4-0s between the wars so obviously not that rare.

 

 

 

Notice the top one is GWR stock, the bottom, SR stock.

Though is there a degree of confirmation bias here?  In days of limited film, would you have been more predisposed to take photos of the “unusual” meaning that a relative higher proportion of the photographic record shows these instances than you might first expect?  Ditto the more often commented phenomenon that most photos represent summer Saturdays/Sundays because that’s when it was pleasant to be out with your camera. 

[Nearholmer]

Well, I had a look at Bradshaw 1910, and the pre-grouping situation frankly baffles me!

 

Here are tentative findings:

 

There seem to be carriages that are slipped from London bound trains from the north (I think as far away as Birkenhead) at Reading, and are then taken forward at least as far as Basingstoke, possibly going on to Southampton and Bournemouth. Didn't the GWR have some special short slip coaches for this traffic?

 

I can't find any whole through trains via Basingstoke, and certainly nothing that takes the west curve at Reading to run direct to Oxford (did the curve exist in 1910?). But there are services direct to Southampton via the DN&S.

 

Other interesting news from this visit to Bradshaw is that there were quite a few Reading to Portsmouth trains, via Basingstoke, which seem to be GWR trains throughout, although I'm not sure, and that the LNWR provided through coaches detached I think from The Sunny South express at Willesden Junction for Southampton and Bournemouth, while the Midland sent people to Southampton round the sun to meet the moon, using the M&SWJctR.

 

My reading of all this is that the big through trains via Basingstoke and Oxford might be post WW1, possibly post-grouping, efforts, which rather counts out LSWR locos getting beyond Reading.

 

Further information welcome!

 

PS: I wonder if those 4-4-0 photos might show some sort of summer Saturdays only mass-exodus to the seaside services; the SR coaches don't look very posh.

 

 

[30851]

The book "Train Formations & Carriage Workings of the Great Western Railways" says that SR steam could be seen on relief trains up to Birmingham before WWII. It includes 4 pictures of such trains - 3 with D15's (one of them being one of the linked ones above) and one T9.  All were taken 1925/26. 

 

Rob

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, Clearwater said:

Though is there a degree of confirmation bias here?  In days of limited film, would you have been more predisposed to take photos of the “unusual” meaning that a relative higher proportion of the photographic record shows these instances than you might first expect?  Ditto the more often commented phenomenon that most photos represent summer Saturdays/Sundays because that’s when it was pleasant to be out with your camera. 

The services are not normal all year daily services but timetabled summer "Sunny Coast" services, equally they are not one off excursions, like the famous 27 Apr 63 Footex assault on Snow Hill with Bulleid pacifics. (There is actually a nice picture somewhere of two of these north of Birmingham running together, one on the slow line and one on the fast line on the way to servicing after dropping off their passengers)

 

These holiday trains ran regularly for many years throughout the summer months.

 

The captioning mentions that normally these arrived in the Midlands behind a GWR engine (changed at Oxford?) but their are quite a few photos of SR locos around so they can't IMHO be classed as "Rocking Horse poo" rare.

 

I imagine the photographers always new their was a chance of something unusual on these services so would have looked out for them.

 

It's still a heck of a journey for a relatively ancient 4-4-0 with a long train.

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by melmerby

[Oldddudders]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

There are quite a few photos on Warwickshire Railways of different SR 4-4-0s between the wars so obviously not that rare.

Notice the top one is GWR stock, the bottom, SR stock.

Dipping into Mike King's new book "Southern Coaches Survey" tells me that the SR stock is a 4-coach ex-LSWR lavatory set with sliding door brake vehicles to Dia 125.  As with everything else by this author, it is thoroughly recommended, having nearly 200 pages about Southern's constituents' passenger stock, including the S&DJR, albeit with a slightly incongruous section - less than 30 pages - on Mk 1 stock!

[The Stationmaster]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Well, I had a look at Bradshaw 1910, and the pre-grouping situation frankly baffles me!

 

Here are tentative findings:

 

There seem to be carriages that are slipped from London bound trains from the north (I think as far away as Birkenhead) at Reading, and are then taken forward at least as far as Basingstoke, possibly going on to Southampton and Bournemouth. Didn't the GWR have some special short slip coaches for this traffic?

 

I can't find any whole through trains via Basingstoke, and certainly nothing that takes the west curve at Reading to run direct to Oxford (did the curve exist in 1910?). But there are services direct to Southampton via the DN&S.

 

Other interesting news from this visit to Bradshaw is that there were quite a few Reading to Portsmouth trains, via Basingstoke, which seem to be GWR trains throughout, although I'm not sure, and that the LNWR provided through coaches detached I think from The Sunny South express at Willesden Junction for Southampton and Bournemouth, while the Midland sent people to Southampton round the sun to meet the moon, using the M&SWJctR.

 

My reading of all this is that the big through trains via Basingstoke and Oxford might be post WW1, possibly post-grouping, efforts, which rather counts out LSWR locos getting beyond Reading.

 

Further information welcome!

 

PS: I wonder if those 4-4-0 photos might show some sort of summer Saturdays only mass-exodus to the seaside services; the SR coaches don't look very posh.

 

 

A bit of research in a 1901 Summer STT reveals the following -

A dated MFO Excursion from  Portsmouth passing Reading West Jcn at 12/15 with a 5 minute stop at Oxford - destination not known but it ran beyond Oxford to 'somewhere'.  It returned calling at Oxford, again for 5 minutes. not much over an hour later which suggests that it probably ran no further than Banbury or if it ran over a much longer distance it meant some unbalanced coach working.  I suspect it was probably worked by a GWR engine north of Basingstoke.

 

A Southampton and Leicester express running daily, via the DN&S to Didcot, 12 minute stop at Oxford, the southbound working - much later in the day - had only a 6 minute stop at Oxford with another 6 minute stop at Didcot.  The times at Oxford in both directions would have been sufficient to change engines but I would think it more likely that a GCR engine didn't come onto the train south of Banbury and possibly not until Leicester - the 1910 Bradshaw might show if there was time for a GWR engine to get that far north.

 

Interestingly there was a Paddington - Southampton 'Fast passenger' - presumably via the DN& S, but I don't have the relevant STTs beyond Reading.

 

Leaping forward nearly half a century to the summer of 1947, so perhaps still suffering from wartime effects the following took place at Oxford -

DOWN TRAINS

SO   12.46 - 12.51    09.30 Bournemouth Central - Birmingham.  Change engines 

FSO 13.13 - 13.21     09.32 Bournemouth West - Birkenhead.  Change engines

SX     22.30 - 23.00    21.40 Swindon - York)

SO     22.50 - 2325    22.00 Swindon - York)   Worked by an LNER engine DLY - see Sunday working below.

SUN 16.28 - 16.40    10.50 Swansea - Sheffield.  No doubt worked by an LNER engine from Swindon - long established working (but not there in 1901)

 

UP TRAINS

MX    00.57 - 01.30    20.10 Sheffield - Swindon. Note *

MX   04.24 - 04.52.    22.00 York - Swindon and Bristol. Note *. One of these trains would be worked by an LNER engine and the other by a GWR engine because otherwise there would be an unbalanced LNER engine at Swindon

SO    13.43 - 13.50.   12.15  Birmingham - Bournemouth West.  Worked forward from Oxford by an SR engine.

FSO   14.11 - 14.18.   09.20 Birkenhead - Bournemouth West.  Worked forward by SR engine.

SUN   00.57 - 01.30    20.10 Sheffield - Swindon. Engine worked through

SUN.  04.24 - 04.52    22.00 York - Bristol.  Engine worked through.  Again one of these two trains off the GC probably had a GWR engine and the other had an LNER engine. as there was only one northbound passenger train balance.

 

Oddly in the Winter service of 1946 there had been daily trains had between Bournemouth West and Birkenhead and between Bournemouth West and Newcastle both changing engines at Oxford with the SR engines working back on balancing services.  Quite why they don't appear to have run in at least part of the Summer of 1947 I haven't got a clue but it could well be due to errors (of omission in the Oxford Station Working Book.  If and when I get a chance I'll check against the 1947 STT although that will be quite a big delving job.

[Dunsignalling]

13 hours ago, Clearwater said:

Though is there a degree of confirmation bias here?  In days of limited film, would you have been more predisposed to take photos of the “unusual” meaning that a relative higher proportion of the photographic record shows these instances than you might first expect?  Ditto the more often commented phenomenon that most photos represent summer Saturdays/Sundays because that’s when it was pleasant to be out with your camera. 

Also a bias towards clean locos, with anything mucky being ignored by some (though not applicable in these two cases!).

 

When out and about with my faithful MX and my preferred 85mm f/2 in the 80's, I came across more than one such diehard who must have struggled to get through a whole 36-exposure cassette before its expiry date. Some had evidently driven quite a way to the locations, too, so were clearly less bothered by the cost of petrol than that of film. 

 

John

[bécasse]

On 10/12/2019 at 13:04, The Stationmaster said:

Oddly in the Winter service of 1946 there had been daily trains had between Bournemouth West and Birkenhead and between Bournemouth West and Newcastle both changing engines at Oxford with the SR engines working back on balancing services.  Quite why they don't appear to have run in at least part of the Summer of 1947 I haven't got a clue but it could well be due to errors (of omission in the Oxford Station Working Book.  If and when I get a chance I'll check against the 1947 STT although that will be quite a big delving job.

Most likely the result of coal shortages which had a much greater effect on train working, especially of "peripheral" through trains, than we tend to remember now.