Forklifts loading BR standard vans and palvans

[Stoker]

1 hour ago, Bernard Lamb said:

There have been various comments about pushing pallets into position with another pallet.

This practise ceased when reach trucks came into common use as they could extend both forwards and to the left and right.

Using pallet trucks as oversize scooters was a regular game and you could get up quite a turn of speed, although cornering was a problem.

Bernard

 

On a more serious note, from what I remember reach trucks were more common in warehouse environments, especially where pallets aren't as heavy. The problem with a reach truck is the fact that you're moving the load away from the ballast really limits the payload because otherwise to compensate you either make the truck too heavy or too long.



Pictured here at ECC's Rocks plant in 1986 on the left beside the then unnamed Sentinel shunter (later plated "Denise") is a brand new CAT V50D, a 5000lbs (2.5 ton) capacity diesel forklift. This particular example looks like it may actually be fitted with reach forks. Stacked pallets of bagged clay can be seen in the bays behind the forklift driver and just above the engine bonnet of the shunter.

This central section of the linhay at Rocks contained the atritor mill and bagging plant, which dried clay from the standard 10% moisture content down to a very fine and dusty 1% moisture content. This ultra fine ultra dry clay could only be handled in paper sacks through specialized equipment. According to a friend who worked at Blackpool dryer (some know this place as Burngullow) in the 1960s, milling was already taking place there at that time under very similar circumstances to Rocks (mill occupied one of the bays in the middle of the linhay).

Neither of these sites had dropped loading edges to van-floor wharf height, all were about 6 foot or so and had a curbed edge to prevent loaders from driving off it, so I think it would've been necessary to bring the pallets down off the wharf down to track level, and load vans from the ground.

[Hump Shunter]

Here are a couple of pages from a British Railways publicity brochure, exact date not known.

 

[Fat Controller]

16 minutes ago, Hump Shunter said:

Here are a couple of pages from a British Railways publicity brochure, exact date not known.

 

That van in the first photo is a progenitor of the 'Vanwide', though the doors were somewhat heavier. Why they didn't build them 'Fitted', I couldn't say. There  was a GWR- designed van with offset doors, built in much larger numbers. These were fitted, but on 9' underfames, meaning their max speed was restricted.

[Stoker]

On 13/12/2019 at 13:18, Fat Controller said:

I heard somewhere that there were approaching 200 Palvan allocated to Cornish clay traffic . They didn't last long, being replaced by Vanfits and Vanwides; the roller-bearings were put on to 13t open wagons for the Clayliner trains, and most Palvans ended up as Internal Users and static stores.

One thing that comes to mind about loading pallets was that earlier ones were 2-way. More recently , four-way ones have come into general use. 

I don't suppose you'd know when the palvans were replaced by the vanwides and vanfits?

[Fat Controller]

1 hour ago, Stoker said:

I don't suppose you'd know when the palvans were replaced by the vanwides and vanfits?

At a guess, early to mid 1960s; I suspect it wasn't done on a one-for-one basis, as greater use seems to have been made of bulk carriage  in sheeted opens. By the time I worked at one of the Potteries depots (Longport) at the end of the 1970s, there might be one Vanfit for every thirty opens on the daily delivery.

[Stoker]

Just now, Fat Controller said:

At a guess, early to mid 1960s; I suspect it wasn't done on a one-for-one basis, as greater use seems to have been made of bulk carriage  in sheeted opens. By the time I worked at one of the Potteries depots (Longport) at the end of the 1970s, there might be one Vanfit for every thirty opens on the daily delivery.

The potteries tended to prefer to receive clay in "lump" (bulk) form, as it was only required to go through a straightforward process of being blunged, filter pressed, and pugged before it could be thrown/stamped/etc.  I believe the stuff sent to the potteries in bags was finer particle milled clay for use in making slips and glazes, which had to flow nicely.

The majority of bagged clay leaving the county was SPS (selected particle size) paper coating clay, so would've been going up to the paper mills around the country, like Kent and Scotland.

[Fat Controller]

5 minutes ago, Stoker said:

The potteries tended to prefer to receive clay in "lump" (bulk) form, as it was only required to go through a straightforward process of being blunged, filter pressed, and pugged before it could be thrown/stamped/etc.  I believe the stuff sent to the potteries in bags was finer particle milled clay for use in making slips and glazes, which had to flow nicely.

The majority of bagged clay leaving the county was SPS (selected particle size) paper coating clay, so would've been going up to the paper mills around the country, like Kent and Scotland.

When I worked there, the majority of bagged clay was either for the educational sector, or for the smallest of pot banks. 

Nice to see someone who's heard about 'blunging' and 'pug-mills'; when I was first sent to a pot-bank to 'help the fitter put the blunger back together', I thought it was some sort of elaborate joke.

[Stoker]

4 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

When I worked there, the majority of bagged clay was either for the educational sector, or for the smallest of pot banks. 

Nice to see someone who's heard about 'blunging' and 'pug-mills'; when I was first sent to a pot-bank to 'help the fitter put the blunger back together', I thought it was some sort of elaborate joke.

Both equipment were common to the clay industry. Blungers and pug mills were used in the slurry plants. Pug mills were also used in drying plants that were producing paper coating clay. The mill ran at a really high pressure, enough to cause the clay to steam, this imparted a shearing action on the clay, slightly rounding the particles resulting in a better flow. There was also one unique plant at Drinnick that used a blunger to slurry already dried clay to the correct SG, before adding a dispersant, with the resulting slurry dried on a steam heated drum and scraped off with a "doctor knife". This was a special grade called Starflo or "predispersed SPS" for papermaker SD Warren in the USA.

Two grades of clay that you might recall were commonly sent to the potteries from ECC, these were Grolleg and Standard Porcelain, produced at the eponymous Standard Porcelain blending and refining plant at Melbur refinery, pictured below. This plant was uphill from where the product was being dried at Collins Dryer at the end of the Retew/Meledor Mill branch, and the last source of traffic from there.

[The Bigbee Line]

Good morning,

 

I have just come across this most interesting thread.  I have a couple of Pallet vans on my 'potential building' list, so read with interest.

 

Regarding the original question of whether FLT's went into the wagons.  To be absolutely sure you would need anecdotal or pictorial evidence.  Each depot would have adopted a method to suit the resources available and allowed the most time sitting in the mess room...

 

From real experience getting FLT's in a wagon is risky, if essential to enter, then steel 'bridging plates' need to be used.  The wheel loading is often 5 tonnes for the front wheels.  We hired non bogie vans to transport reeled paper.  Bridging plates were not used...  When the truck was driven into the van, it would bounce as it crossed the small gap, then on landing the impact would break the birch plywood floor.  

 

The problem with the early PALVANs is the running when empty.  In this state each wheelset is unevenly loaded.  If you imagine the door is heavy and bearing down on one wheel, the opposite wheel has a lighter load.  So immediately you have a light wheel, not good.  Even worse the light wheels are on opposite corners.  So a wagon that will not respond well to any track defects when running empty.  This uneven loading will also effect the wear on the suspension components, the heavy cornets wearing more...  Nightmare

 

Any way an interesting thread, thanks.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by The Bigbee Line

[Fat Controller]

5 hours ago, The Bigbee Line said:

Good morning,

 

I have just come across this most interesting thread.  I have a couple of Pallet vans on my 'potential building' list, so read with interest.

 

Regarding the original question of whether FLT's went into the wagons.  To be absolutely sure you would need anecdotal or pictorial evidence.  Each depot would have adopted a method to suit the resources available and allowed the most time sitting in the mess room...

 

From real experience getting FLT's in a wagon is risky, if essential to enter, then steel 'bridging plates' need to be used.  The wheel loading is often 5 tonnes for the front wheels.  We hired non bogie vans to transport reeled paper.  Bridging plates were not used...  When the truck was driven into the van, it would bounce as it crossed the small gap, then on landing the impact would break the birch plywood floor.  

 

The problem with the early PALVANs is the running when empty.  In this state each wheelset is unevenly loaded.  If you imagine the door is heavy and bearing down on one wheel, the opposite wheel has a lighter load.  So immediately you have a light wheel, not good.  Even worse the light wheels are on opposite corners.  So a wagon that will not respond well to any track defects when running empty.  This uneven loading will also effect the wear on the suspension components, the heavy cornets wearing more...  Nightmare

 

Any way an interesting thread, thanks.

 

 

Some of the BR-issued Data sheets, which I'm certain Ernie remembers, used to have the maximum loading per square metre shown. The figures shown suggest that the forklift would be too heavy when laden to enter the wagon. The only exceptions I'm aware of were the BR-owned VCA (hence their use for tinplate traffic) and the Cargowaggon twin vans.

Regarding the derailment of Palvans, due to uneven loading; this has become a problem with wagons carrying ISO containers, such that one wheel-set has several times the load on it, compared with others. When this differential loading occurs in conjunction with track-twist, derailment  can result, as in cases at Washwood Heath, Saltley and Reading West Jct (in the last instance, the wagon partially derailed, then re-railed itself at the next set of points.

[duncan]

In the current enviroment, we load 45ft containers with pallets weighing 1/2 to a ton each, so only one high.  The forklifts (a couple of tons) travel into the container & the movement in the lorry springs is quite marked, unless it is a modern air suspension one with the suspension locked for loading.

[Stoker]

Many thanks to all who replied, this mystery has now been solved thanks to Ray Hill, who worked for the Goonvean and Rostowrack China Clay Co Ltd for most of his working life. This photo shows Ray at the helm of a Lansing Bagnall forklift within the linhay of the Trelavour dryer in 1971.