Imported US Built Locomotives

[Nick Holliday]

I don't know if his has been mentioned before, but the Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway acquired two Baldwin built 0-6-2 saddle tanks in 1900, whilst still part of the United Kingdom. I think they lasted to around 1914.

[Nearholmer]

Do half-Us-built things count?

 

It's well-known that a lot of electric locomotives and EMUs built c1900 for Britain were to largely American designs, as GE and Westinghouse set up plants here and penetrated the emerging market, which had previously been heavily influenced from Europe, but I've just remembered that the first Mersey Railway EMUs actually had all electrical kit and bogies, and possibly under-frames, that were built in the US and shipped over as kits. The wooden car-bodies were built here, but were to US designs to a degree where photos of the railway look at first glance as if they were taken in the US.

 

Or, off at a completely different tangent, what about miniature steam locos? There were a few 15" gauge Cagneys here, and I think one might still exist here.

 

Or, even further off track, and a real "all nations" loco, an 1880s tramway locomotive used in North London, then in Southwark and in the Croydon area, which started life as a battery-powered machine designed by a Russian/Polish engineer, was then fitted with a US-made internal-combustion engine, then a British internal-combustion engine, then, I am fairly sure, got exported to the US, where it was used as street-car depot switcher?  OK, it was exported, not imported, but it had an American engine for a while!

Edited December 19, 2019 by Nearholmer

[BernardTPM]

There's one on the Rhyl Miniature Railway:

[johnofwessex]

Again, the US Diesels were another massive missed opportunity for the UK, imagine buying/licence building them in large numbers at the end of WW2 to replace the countless elderly and outdated steam loco's in service at the time

[Nearholmer]

Much discussed in other threads. Lack of foreign exchange funds (indeed, lack of any funds full stop!), and a domestic industry that wanted to show/grow its own competence and earn export orders on the back of doing a good job at home. That went well.

[Wickham Green]

59 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Much discussed in other threads. Lack of foreign exchange funds (indeed, lack of any funds full stop!), and a domestic industry that wanted to show/grow its own competence and earn export orders on the back of doing a good job at home. That went well.

Not to mention plenty of home-grown fuel to utilise ( mined by one recently nationalised industry and used by another ) - long before anyone discovered what was swilling about under the North Sea.

[Allegheny1600]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Whitcombs were indeed assembled at Ebbw Jc, being shipped in main assemblies to Cardiff Docks, which had a floating crane capable of lifting them off the ships.  Most S160s came in this way as well, but fully assembled and hauled dead to Ebbw Jc for preperation for service.  Photos show Whitcombs apparently with unpainted aluminium bodies, all a bit Judge Dredd...

Many thanks for this.

May I ask, please? How do you know this?

Is it something you saw, heard about as 'folklore', perhaps (common knowledge in your part of the world!) or from another publication.

I don't wish to sound like I'm doubting you, just wanting to double check that it's not something directly linked back to the Tourret book!

Basically, I'd love the excuse to run a model of one!

Cheers,

John.

[Nearholmer]

You'll enjoy this, although it doesn't answer your query http://www.robertsarmory.com/whitcomb.htm

 

Whitcomb 65 tonners definitely did work in the country, though, in that there was at least one on the LMR (WD890 'Tobruk'), and I'm pretty sure (will check) that odd ones were used for short periods at other military depots/railways.

 

Doesn't Tourret say that they did "running in" turns, working in pairs, on goods trains near Ebbw Vale?

 

My similar attempt to find a pretext to run a GE 44 tonner on my layout failed miserably, but I still do it anyway, 'cos I like the sound affects it has!

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Talltim]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

You'll enjoy this, although it doesn't answer your query http://www.robertsarmory.com/whitcomb.htm

 

Whitcomb 65 tonners definitely did work in the country, though, in that there was at least one on the LMR (WD890 'Tobruk'), and I'm pretty sure (will check) that odd ones were used for short periods at other military depots/railways.

I was reading that page earlier this week. Be wary, there were different models of Whitcomb 65 tonners and the page seems to mix them up a bit. The two export models seem

to have been the earlier 65DE14 which looked a bit smaller and had lots of grills in the doors and the later 65DE19/a/b which were bigger and had fewer grills.

Acme have recently released an H0 model of the 65DE14 in USATC paint and as FS class NE120 http://www.acmetreni.it/index.php/en/ (Scroll down)

More pics of various Whitcombs in the US http://www.northeast.railfan.net/diesel134.html

 

Edited December 20, 2019 by Talltim

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Many thanks for this.

May I ask, please? How do you know this?

Is it something you saw, heard about as 'folklore', perhaps (common knowledge in your part of the world!) or from another publication.

I don't wish to sound like I'm doubting you, just wanting to double check that it's not something directly linked back to the Tourret book!

Basically, I'd love the excuse to run a model of one!

Cheers,

John.

I'm pretty sure seen a photo of one being unloaded from a ship in Cardiff's Roath Dock by the floating crane, which also unloaded S160s.  Now you're going to ask me where I saw the photo, and I'm going to disappoint you because it was a long time ago and my memory ain't wot it wuz.  The photo was taken from the oppostite side of the dock, the iron ore wharf, to what is nowadays the timber wharf on the southestern side of the dock.  My memory is telling me that it was in one of a series of 'Old Cardiff' photo books that came out in the 70s and 80s.  There's also somewhere a shot of lines of them stored awaiting transit to, presumably, Southampton for shipping to France post D day.  They are bright and shiny and stand out starkly against the background of filthy coal wagons in Ebbw Jc marshalling yard.

 

It is, perhaps surprisingly, not particularly common knowledge or folklore in my part of the world.  People during the war were used to a culture of not talking much about anything they'd seen and after the war it sort of didn't matter much; most of the civilians who would have been aware of this.wanted to forget the war and move on.  I can't even recall anyone talking about these diesels when I worked at Canton in the 70s; there were plenty of older drivers around who'd have been there at the time, and the S160s were remembered, not with any fondness, as were the S100s at Barry where they did pilot work on the docks.  There were probably newsreel films of the locos 'somewhere in England', but these were shown as preludes to the main feature, and, again, not taken much notice of.

 

I wasn't previously aware that the Whitcombs had done any booked work in the UK, just that they'd been assembled at Ebbw, which had a main district shed workshop and good facilities for it, and test run 'locally'; I always sort of assumed this was a quick run up to Rogerstone and back for snagging and then over to the marshalling yard for storage.  I fully understand your desire to have one on your layout; they are very distinctive looking beasts with clearly a lot of character.   

 

You are probably aware that the 66s are brought in through Newport Docks, loco and bogies separate as deck cargo on the same ship.  The locos are shipped from Canada complete with fuel and coolant, batteries charged, and only need sitting on the bogies and everything connected up to be driven off the dock to their allocation.  Newport has a history of dealing with diesels imported from North America...

[Allegheny1600]

Thanks, Gents!

That's all good stuff and I'm certainly happy to find that all this information isn't coming just from one source.

Not that I have any reason to doubt Mr Tourett or you guys, just a scientific method of gaining as many different sources as possible!

Cheers,

John

[Talltim]

Found a Flickr group of random Whitcombs, mainly in the US, including a narrow gauge one at Bethlehem Steel

https://www.flickr.com/groups/2511219@N23/pool

[corneliuslundie]

Back briefly on the Norris 4-2-0s. Two were sold second hand to the Taff Vale Railway and one to the Aberdare Railway, which was later absorbed by the TVR. Ex B&G Moorsom, Gloucester and Columbia.

Source: RCTS Locomotives of the GWR Part 10.

Jonathan

[Wickham Green too]

On 19/12/2019 at 17:40, Marshall5 said:

Wasn't this a GE 45 tonner?  I have a recollection that this, or one very similar was at Steamtown Carnforth in the late? 70's but later cut up.  There was mention of it, maybe on Nat Pres, a couple of years ago. Sorry to be so vague.

Ray.

Apologies for resurrecting this thread - but I stumbled upon it when trying to identify this - ( the red thing, not the rusty one ) : - 

 

 

'Steam 81' lists it as GE No.30483 and named "New Jersey" ...... though whether that name was carried in service is anybody's guess.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Wickham Green too

[Nearholmer]

The IRS handbook records that it carried running number 124, but not any name, while with Esso.

[EddieB]

Yes, the name seems to have been applied when it went to Carnforth.

[dibber25]

I know the question was specifically about locos, but, large amounts of USATC rolling stock were sent as kits to the UK and assembled here before going to Europe and North Africa in WW2. Some also ran in the UK and I have photographs which show freightcars standing on 4th rail electrified tracks which suggests assembly somewhere on the London Transport system. The vehicles included bogie flatcars , tank wagons and four-wheel and boxcars as well as some four-wheel tool vans, one of which I saw on a preserved railway (Market Bosworth?) some years ago. There were HO scale models in the Klein Modellbahn range but I don't know if they are still available. (CJL)

[Johann Marsbar]

13 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

I know the question was specifically about locos, but, large amounts of USATC rolling stock were sent as kits to the UK and assembled here before going to Europe and North Africa in WW2. Some also ran in the UK and I have photographs which show freightcars standing on 4th rail electrified tracks which suggests assembly somewhere on the London Transport system. The vehicles included bogie flatcars , tank wagons and four-wheel and boxcars as well as some four-wheel tool vans, one of which I saw on a preserved railway (Market Bosworth?) some years ago. There were HO scale models in the Klein Modellbahn range but I don't know if they are still available. (CJL)

 

The USATC 4w mobile workshop (based on the van design) that was at Market Bosworth and then the GWSR is currently residing at a private (non rail connected) site in Wishaw, Warwickshire, along with a USATC 4w 6 plank open wagon amongst a lot of other rolling stock.

One of the Dutch preserved lines has restored some of these vehicles fairly recently....

 

 

[Tony Cane]

The London Transport depot in the pictures is Hainault.

 

While Tourret  has much detailed information the Oakwood Press book on the USA 756th RSB at Newport, by E. R. Mountford, has further details of the USATC locomotives. many of the diesels arrived in desert sand livery and were painted black before being sent to France. There may be some debate about how black they were as there in good evidence that those sent directly to France and used in Italy were painted dark gray. While the Oakwood book confirms the running in turns, the author could find no solid evidence for use on freight trains.

 

During the war the Whitcombs were used on passenger trains on the Longmoor railway for a few months, according to Tourret.

One significant barrier to the use of diesel road engines during WWII would have been the lack of qualified drivers. The S160 locomotives were apparently put in to service with crews who have never seen one before being expected to drive them!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

The whole USATC in Britain and Europe thing is very interesting, and moves OT, do we have an appetite for a dedicated thread? I'll open one, and we'll see ........

[johnofwessex]

On 31/01/2021 at 14:33, Tony Cane said:

.................................. The S160 locomotives were apparently put in to service with crews who have never seen one before being expected to drive them!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless practice elsewhere was different, there was no 'Type Training' on steam, you just got aboard and drove it, as best you could.

 

I remember seeing a video with Clive Groom describing how he had to work out by trial and error how to master firing a 9F

[pete_mcfarlane]

I recently read "Footplate Days on the Southern" where the author describes exactly such issues with unfamiliar locos - struggling to figure out how to work the injectors on a T9, and causing an accident at Stewarts Lane whilst moving a Britannia as the brake controls were different from Southern practice. 

.

[Michael Hodgson]

Americans tended to think in terms of a more generous loading gauge, so orders for the UK might well need to be specially designed, and it was probably easier for the smaller UK companies just to buy an off-the shelf design from one of our own manufacturers.

[Fat Controller]

https://model-railroad-hobbyist.com/node/41504 has some interesting photos, including one of a Whitcomb hauling a SR Brake Van. Don't get too excited; it looks to have been taken in Lebanon.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Fat Controller

[Nearholmer]

That's Bognor, you can tell by the palm trees.

 

Seriously though, thanks for that link, some good photos there.