Freiwald Software (RR&Co) no longer available to UK buyers

[jamespetts]

3 minutes ago, njee20 said:

What are the ways it’s superior to iTrain, out of interest. Will be building a new layout shortly and planning to at least wire for automation even if I don’t implement any time soon!

 

I can’t bring myself to give Mr Freiwald any of my money, but what are the shortcomings of iTrain in comparison?

 

When I last checked, iTrain did not have variables or macros, reducing the programming/customisation options considerably.

[WIMorrison]

4 hours ago, RFS said:

I notice since the UK left the EU on 30th January...

 

The UK is still a member of the EU.

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

The UK is still a member of the EU.

No it's not

It's out of the EU but in the transistion phase.

[Colin_McLeod]

Surely the solution is to get a German pen pal to channel all your queries through.

[Andymsa]

28 minutes ago, melmerby said:

In general it's only the last couple of years that he has started making political rather than business decisions regarding the software.

The support was OK with a decent forum of knowledgable users.

 

Are you prepared to throw £500 in the bin?

If you are you obviously have more money than sense, I'm certainly not going to start again with iTrain but I wont be buying any more TC upgrades and I wont recommend it as a purchase to anyone that asks.

 

 

 

I absolutly agree regarding paying any further money to freiwald, but here is the real issue for me. Herr freiwald is not getting any younger and due to the way the software is now protected with the USB stick, and herr freiwald ceases trading for what ever reason what future support for replacing that stick if it becomes faulty would there be. Suddenly Im unable to fully control my layout, and with the cost of our layouts the small outlay for I-train and the reassurance of being able to control my layout was worth  the cost.

[njee20]

31 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

 

When I last checked, iTrain did not have variables or macros, reducing the programming/customisation options considerably.

 At risk of continuing the thread hijack, what does that actually mean? What are the use cases? Do you mean TC can choose a random element to a schedule, whilst iTrain can only slavishly do what it’s told?

[Andymsa]

29 minutes ago, melmerby said:

No it's not

It's out of the EU but in the transistion phase.

 

Im sorry to disagree but we are still a member but we don't have full voting rights within the EU. This is the reason why the EU want an extension over the virus because we become liable for the EU bailout for the virus so if we aren't a member why would we be liable for such bailout. We still have full trading with the EU and the various regulations still apply which even apply to herr freiwald which he has clearly disregarded.

[Andymsa]

47 minutes ago, njee20 said:

What are the ways it’s superior to iTrain, out of interest. Will be building a new layout shortly and planning to at least wire for automation even if I don’t implement any time soon!

 

I can’t bring myself to give Mr Freiwald any of my money, but what are the shortcomings of iTrain in comparison?

 

This isn't an easy question to arnswer, it really depends on what you want to do. In TC there are some very powerful tools and processes that a user can use, both programs have plus and minus points and I would recommend trying both before you decide. 

[njee20]

7 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

 

Im sorry to disagree but we are still a member but we don't have full voting rights within the EU.

 

No we’re not. We’re still part of the customs union and single market throughout the transition, but we are not a member any more. 
 

2 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

 

This isn't an easy question to arnswer, it really depends on what you want to do. In TC there are some very powerful tools and processes that a user can use, both programs have plus and minus points and I would recommend trying both before you decide. 

 

Mmm, I have literally zero intention of buying TC, I’d probably sooner go without, particularly as I don’t know what I’m missing, but just curious to know what that actually is!

[WIMorrison]

58 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

 

When I last checked, iTrain did not have variables or macros, reducing the programming/customisation options considerably.

 

Whilst iTrain doesn't support variables in the manner that TC does this is not a restriction as it has a very powerful set of actions (similar to macros) that take inputs from the track feedbacks, blocks, relays or other activities to modify train routes, or have the train undertake specific activities.

 

As Andy says the 2 programs are very different and looking for exact replication of a function from TC in iTrain (or vice versa) isn't a fair comparison of either product - what is fair is to compare the results, not how they achieve it.

[Dungrange]

4 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

 

Im sorry to disagree but we are still a member but we don't have full voting rights within the EU. This is the reason why the EU want an extension over the virus because we become liable for the EU bailout for the virus so if we aren't a member why would we be liable for such bailout. We still have full trading with the EU and the various regulations still apply which even apply to herr freiwald which he has clearly disregarded.

 

The UK is no longer a member of the European Union: we legally left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 UK time (24:00 Central European time).  The opportunity to Revoke Article 50 and remain a member of the EU is no more.   However, under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement ratified just before our departure, we are in a transition period where the UK is still a member of the EU Single Market (like Norway and a few other non-EU countries).  This transition period runs through to 31 December 2020.  Like Norway, we pay for this access (part of the so called 'divorce settlement' in the Withdrawal Agreement) but have no say over how the money is used by the EU (because we are not a member of the EU anymore).  The idea was that as a non-member country we would negotiate a new trade agreement with the EU during this transition period and the new arrangements will come into effect on 1 January 2021.

 

The problem with extending this transition period is that if we want access to the EU Single Market for a longer period of time, we need to pay for it.  That was always the case if we wanted to pursue what was usually referred to as a 'soft Brexit'.  However, to pay for the impacts of Covid-19, the EU budget for the next seven year period is likely to be higher than it otherwise would have been and that means that the cost of an extension will have increased from what it would have been pre-Covid-19.  Therefore, if the UK decides that it still wants access to the EU Single Market it is going to cost more than would have been envisaged when we left the EU.

 

We are currently part of the EU Single Market, but we are not a member of the European Union.

[Andymsa]

3 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 

The UK is no longer a member of the European Union: we legally left the EU on 31 January 2020 at 23:00 UK time (24:00 Central European time).  The opportunity to Revoke Article 50 and remain a member of the EU is no more.   However, under the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement ratified just before our departure, we are in a transition period where the UK is still a member of the EU Single Market (like Norway and a few other non-EU countries).  This transition period runs through to 31 December 2020.  Like Norway, we pay for this access (part of the so called 'divorce settlement' in the Withdrawal Agreement) but have no say over how the money is used by the EU (because we are not a member of the EU anymore).  The idea was that as a non-member country we would negotiate a new trade agreement with the EU during this transition period and the new arrangements will come into effect on 1 January 2021.

 

The problem with extending this transition period is that if we want access to the EU Single Market for a longer period of time, we need to pay for it.  That was always the case if we wanted to pursue what was usually referred to as a 'soft Brexit'.  However, to pay for the impacts of Covid-19, the EU budget for the next seven year period is likely to be higher than it otherwise would have been and that means that the cost of an extension will have increased from what it would have been pre-Covid-19.  Therefore, if the UK decides that it still wants access to the EU Single Market it is going to cost more than would have been envisaged when we left the EU.

 

We are currently part of the EU Single Market, but we are not a member of the European Union.

 

Something that herr freiwald seems to be getting away with, treating the uk as a non Eu country.

[jamespetts]

Njee20 - I can give a number of examples from my own layout project, still in progress, of what I can do with macros and variables. I have my layout set up to have a virtual extension to the layout that is entirely computer simulated. A series of macros are set up to progress trains along the virtual section of my layout. Once these trains reach the boundary between that and the real section, they trigger an actual train to come from the fiddle yard and take up where the virtual train leaves off.

 

Announcements are played automatically if a train is running late at two separate timing points on the virtual layout, and further announcements are played when the train is in the physical part of the layout and just approaching the station. The announcement depends on the calling pattern of the train, its intended platform (of which there are a possible five) and whether it has been delayed. I also plan to have platform change announcements if a train is routed away from its booked platform, but have not implemented this yet.

 

I plan to have a full week's timetable, so I could not sensibly program this individually one train at a time, so I have to use macros and announcement recordings that can be re-used for lots of different trains just by inserting different data. This is where variables come in. Variables are the fundamental currency of any sort of computer programming. Using variables, one can achieve far more than will ever be possible with a simple set of commands.

 

To give a brief outline of how my system works: the timetable will call a macro for each train working (I have not  got the timetable itself set up yet as I only have a few test workings: these are triggered by buttons). The initial macro is unique for each working, but is very short. What this initial macro does is set a number of private variables (that is, variables whose values are only visible to the current macro and other macros called by the current macro), including one for the train reporting number, another for the calling pattern (used for announcements), another for the booked platform, another for the "schedule" (i.e., pattern of train movements on the actual layout) that will be called when the working gets to the boundary with the real layout), and some more for the times at which timing points should be passed.

 

Once these variables are set, this macro then calls another, general macro. This is a much longer and more complex macro, but it is not specific to each working: instead, there is one of these for each direction and line in question. This macro, in turn, sets some further variables, including the direction and the timing pattern (how long that the train should spend in each block in the virtual part of the layout: a task which I have yet to do is have this be modified depending on the signal states and possibly whether the train is trying to make up time), and then calls a delay/cancellation generator, which will (if I have enabled delays/cancellations using a button that I have created on the fiddle yard switch board) possibly make the service late by a certain amount, record the amount of delay in a private variable, and play an announcement. The announcement, in turn, is a sound file, the filename of which is determined by a number of variables (variables can be used as wildcards in specifying filenames) for the train's calling pattern and how late that it is, as well as its booked platform (e.g. "This is an announcement for passengers waiting on platform 5; we regret to announce that the service to Banbury has been delayed by approximately 10 minutes..."). If no delay is generated, the delay counter is set to zero. After generating the announcement, the delay macro does not terminate until the delay period has passed, and the main macro is set to wait for the delay macro to terminate before continuing.

 

When the main macro does continue, it will set variables for what section that the train should enter next, and then call a further macro (which is even more general than the previous one, applying to all virtual train movements, not just on a specific line), and this sub-macro will actually trigger the train movements in the virtual sections with the appropriate timing delays generated by the timing data mentioned earlier, stored in variables.

 

At certain points, timing point macros are called. This checks whether the train is within 2 minutes either way of the booked time for the timing point in question (stored, we will recall, in variables), and, if not, will display a message. If the train is late at the timing point by more than 2 minutes and the delay variable is zero (i.e., if the delay has first arisen on the virtual part of the layout), an announcement will be triggered announcing that the train is running late (in the same style as the example given previously). If, however, the delay variable is a non-zero value, indicating that there has already been a delay, the announcement triggered is different (e.g. "This is an announcement for passengers on platform 5 awaiting the delayed arrival from Banbury - this train is now passing Wolvercote Junction and is expected to arrive in approximately 4 minutes").

 

Once the virtual train reaches the boundary between the real and virtual sections of the layout, the schedule held in the private variable for this purpose and seeded by the very first macro to be called is then triggered, and some of the essential data contained in the variables of the virtual train (e.g. reporting number, calling pattern, booked platform) are transferred to the actual train on the layout. Then, when the actual train approaches the station, it triggers an action marker, in turn triggering an announcement that the train is approaching, and, again, the filename of the file containing the announcement audio is constructed from some base text, plus the variables for the booked platform, calling number and whether there is a delay or not.

 

This is just one example of the power of variables. Once one knows how to use them, one would never want to go back to not having them available. It really makes a fundamental difference to what can be achieved.

[Ian J.]

Having a programming language to call on to do complex tasks is very valuable - witness VBA in the Microsoft Office suite; VBScript for SAP; macros in Notepad++; various extensions of SQL in the various RDBMS programs. Having something similar in a train control system is very powerful. That iTrain doesn't have it isn't necessarily bad as most of the automation that most users would want is probably there, but if its developers want the program to mature to cover far more granular control, it's a feature that they will need to implement in some way.

[Ouroborus]

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

Pointless comment

The fuss is because many people have invested not an insignificant amount in the software over the years so it is not a case of "not buying it" but more a case of concern about support for their asset purchased before Herr F. started on his anti non-German business model.

 

Hardly a pointless comment.  Some of us have yet to take the jump to computer control.  Reading the thread about the attitude of the man gives (to me) useful guidance as to which way to eventually go.   If you've invested a significant amount, that's one thing.  Not all of us have.   

 

The betamax / VHS war of the 70s comes to mind.  Wasn't betamax the better quality, more feature rush format?

[Colin_McLeod]

7 hours ago, jamespetts said:

I have my layout set up to have a virtual extension to the layout that is entirely computer simulated. A series of macros are set up to progress trains along the virtual section of my layout. Once these trains reach the boundary between that and the real section, they trigger an actual train to come from the fiddle yard and take up where the virtual train leaves off.

 

James that is a brilliant idea, giving more realism to the concept that the fiddle yard represents "the rest of BR"

 

Reading the rest your post shows just what can be done and you have obviously put a lot of thought and work into it.

 

[melmerby]

26 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

 

 

The betamax / VHS war of the 70s comes to mind.  Wasn't betamax the better quality, more feature rush format?

It's not really the same sort of comparison in that it was driven by multi million pound business deals

 

The Video 2000 was the best by far but the major Rental companies* were persuaded by JVC to take VHS machines and as the vast majority of people rented, that became the No1 format, Betamax was better and Video 2000 better still, so the worst of the three won.

At one point the best selling (not rented) machine was the Video 2000 but sales were a small fraction of those delivered to rental companies.

If people bought their machines most bought Betamax or V2000

Where I worked there were 12 in our "Group" we were the sort that bought, not rented our technology and IIRC 10 of the 12 opted for V2000.

 

*Thorn group which had the Lions share of the TV rental market.(DER- Radio Rentals)

Edited May 10, 2020 by melmerby

[Andymsa]

2 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

James that is a brilliant idea, giving more realism to the concept that the fiddle yard represents "the rest of BR"

 

Reading the rest your post shows just what can be done and you have obviously put a lot of thought and work into it.

 

 

Take a look at the traincontroller forum, there are some screen shots of his progress so far. Looks very much like the real IECC panel

[RFS]

11 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

 

I absolutely agree regarding paying any further money to freiwald, but here is the real issue for me. Herr freiwald is not getting any younger and due to the way the software is now protected with the USB stick, and herr freiwald ceases trading for what ever reason what future support for replacing that stick if it becomes faulty would there be. Suddenly Im unable to fully control my layout, and with the cost of our layouts the small outlay for I-train and the reassurance of being able to control my layout was worth  the cost.

 

I can vouch for what happens when your USB stick fails as mine did about a year ago. Although it was replaced, the procedure was far more fraught than it needed to be but I won't go into more details here.

 

My recommendation would be to protect your stick as best you can, and to that end I purchased a 6"/15cm USB extension lead. The USB stick is plugged into that and the lead into the PC itself, so any plugging/unplugging activity is not directly with the stick. 

 

The USB stick only first arrived with version 7. I still have my 5.8 code and licence key and whilst waiting for the replacement I tried it out. It works fine on Windows 10 but obviously I would be missing some features I now use, but I suspect if it came to that then 5.8 would be a better alternative to iTrain for me if only because I know TC and could easily get it going again.

 

[Andymsa]

35 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

I can vouch for what happens when your USB stick fails as mine did about a year ago. Although it was replaced, the procedure was far more fraught than it needed to be but I won't go into more details here.

 

My recommendation would be to protect your stick as best you can, and to that end I purchased a 6"/15cm USB extension lead. The USB stick is plugged into that and the lead into the PC itself, so any plugging/unplugging activity is not directly with the stick. 

 

The USB stick only first arrived with version 7. I still have my 5.8 code and licence key and whilst waiting for the replacement I tried it out. It works fine on Windows 10 but obviously I would be missing some features I now use, but I suspect if it came to that then 5.8 would be a better alternative to iTrain for me if only because I know TC and could easily get it going again.

 

 

 

I am already practising your your recommendation which is a good idea. There is a bit more but will contact off list.

[jamespetts]

2 hours ago, Andymsa said:

 

Take a look at the traincontroller forum, there are some screen shots of his progress so far. Looks very much like the real IECC panel

 

For anyone interested, here is the layout's panel in TrainController:

 

Traincontroller emulating an IECC by James Petts, on Flickr

 

and here is one of the virtual extensions (there will be three, but I have only built this one so far):

 

Traincontroller emulating an IECC by James Petts, on Flickr

 

This has been set up so that the trains can be driven automatically with the operator (optionally) taking over as signaller at various parts of the layout, virtual and/or real, by disabling the ARS (Automatic Route Setting) in various areas using the pink buttons. NX routing, very much like in a real IECC, can be used, the one limitation being that one cannot click on the signals to set the routes: one has to click on a symbol next to the signals. It has also been set up (with an expansion pack to TrainController called +SmartHand Mobile) to allow other people (who do not themselves need to have paid for TrainController) to connect over the Internet and operate as signallers from afar. Here is what remote users will see:

 

+SmartHand Mobile 2 by James Petts, on Flickr

 

+SmartHand Mobile 1 by James Petts, on Flickr

 

It should also be possible to set up TrainController to drive trains automatically while a user works as a signaller using a lever frame, either a virtual on-screen lever frame, or a physical lever frame triggering electronic switches which are coded to send signals back to TrainController through a layout interface (e.g. LocoNet). I plan to do this with the other layout that I am planning, the large 00 gauge layout discussed elsewhere on these forums.

 

I am not sure to what extent, if at all, the current version of iTrain can do that.

Edited May 10, 2020 by jamespetts

[Andymsa]

17 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

 

For anyone interested, here is the layout's panel in TrainController:

 

Traincontroller emulating an IECC by James Petts, on Flickr

 

and here is one of the virtual extensions (there will be three, but I have only built this one so far):

 

Traincontroller emulating an IECC by James Petts, on Flickr

 

This has been set up so that the trains can be driven automatically with the operator (optionally) taking over as signaller at various parts of the layout, virtual and/or real, by disabling the ARS (Automatic Route Setting) in various areas using the pink buttons. NX routing, very much like in a real IECC, can be used, the one limitation being that one cannot click on the signals to set the routes: one has to click on a symbol next to the signals. It has also been set up (with an expansion pack to TrainController called +SmartHand Mobile) to allow other people (who do not themselves need to have paid for TrainController) to connect over the Internet and operate as signallers from afar. Here is what remote users will see:

 

+SmartHand Mobile 2 by James Petts, on Flickr

 

+SmartHand Mobile 1 by James Petts, on Flickr

 

It should also be possible to set up TrainController to drive trains automatically while a user works as a signaller using a lever frame, either a virtual on-screen lever frame, or a physical lever frame triggering electronic switches which are coded to send signals back to TrainController through a layout interface (e.g. LocoNet). I plan to do this with the other layout that I am planning, the large 00 gauge layout discussed elsewhere on these forums.

 

I am not sure to what extent, if at all, the current version of iTrain can do that.

 

Looking good James,

 

i been thinking about you not being able to press signals for route setting. I'm sure that this could be done 

[jamespetts]

Just now, Andymsa said:

 

Looking good James,

 

i been thinking about you not being able to press signals for route setting. I'm sure that this could be done 

 

Interesting - how do you think that this could be achieved?

[Andymsa]

12 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

 

Interesting - how do you think that this could be achieved?

 

 

One way that  might work, let's take a route it is possible to assign push buttons that when pushed in a certain sequence will set a route up. Maybe the signals could be integrated into this process. The actual buttons would be hidden.

[melmerby]

Here is a link to a previous post on implementing a UK control panel