Deltic typical coach rake (and which manufacturers are best)

[Ben C]

Afternoon,

Hopefully this is the right part of the forum.

I currently have an Accurascale class 55 'Royal Highland Fusiliers' on order which I'm looking forward to receiving. I'm going to need some suitable coaches though.

My layout is only an 8x8 under construction so limited to about 5 coaches, possibly 6 at a real push. What would be a reasonable combination given the limited numbers? My layout is roughly North Eastern based somewhere in the early 60s transition period, though not set in stone. I'm guessing I need to be looking at Maroon Mk1s?

Lastly which manufacturers oo gauge coaches are best. I'm sure I'd read somewhere that the Bachmann mk1s are nicer, but on Hattons and Rails they only have a limited selection of coach types.

 

Any pointers much appreciated!

 

Ben

[Aire Head]

32 minutes ago, Ben C said:

Afternoon,

Hopefully this is the right part of the forum.

I currently have an Accurascale class 55 'Royal Highland Fusiliers' on order which I'm looking forward to receiving. I'm going to need some suitable coaches though.

My layout is only an 8x8 under construction so limited to about 5 coaches, possibly 6 at a real push. What would be a reasonable combination given the limited numbers? My layout is roughly North Eastern based somewhere in the early 60s transition period, though not set in stone. I'm guessing I need to be looking at Maroon Mk1s?

Lastly which manufacturers oo gauge coaches are best. I'm sure I'd read somewhere that the Bachmann mk1s are nicer, but on Hattons and Rails they only have a limited selection of coach types.

 

Any pointers much appreciated!

 

Ben

 

For short rakes hauled by Deltics and other "big" locomotives I'd have a look a Bradford Interchange. A lot of the trains from there were 3/4 coach portions and were attached to London bound services at Wakefield.

 

I'm afraid I can't give you a formation for them.

[Robert Stokes]

I would suggest a BSK at each end and SKs with one FK or CK in between. They don't need to be Mk 1s, especially as these are rather long at 63' 6". I think that 57' coaches from earlier periods would have still been around. (This may or may not be confirmed by others.) Five Mk 1s will be 130mm longer than five 57' coaches.

 

Robert

[TravisM]

I can’t say about the early 60’s but had it been towards the end of their lives, you could more likely get away short coach formations, especially when used on trans pennine services.

 

On a personal note, I prefer Bachmann coaches over Hornby but check out each and make your decision.

[Aire Head]

With a "top flight" loco MK1s are most likely.

 

I have seen images of Deltics working the MK1 Pullmans into Bradford Exchange aswell so that gives you another options.

 

Also note no MK1 Pullman brakes were built so either MK1 brakes or the older flat sided Pullman brakes were used.

[Steamport Southport]

I doubt Deltics worked with anything older than BR Mark Ones on a regular basis. Apart from the 1928 Pullman brakes and an occasional Gresley or Thompson coach (usually a restaurant car). LNER coaches were 61'6" so you aren't really saving much space by using them.

 

A short BR Pullman train would be ideal. The Hornby 1928 brakes or BR BGs at either end and four Bachmann Pullmans. 

 

http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/proto_pullman.html

 

They did work the Trans Pennine trains in the late 1970s and early 1980s. But they were mostly BR MK2s.

 

As for where to get Bachmann coaches. Hattons have a dispute with Bachmann so aren't stocking them. Try Kernow Models as they have some bargains at the moment.

 

 

 

Jason

[RBAGE]

Something like the Tees Tyne Pullman?

[The Johnster]

A Bradford type situation is a good bet, but the short portions to be added to trains at Leeds were just as likely to be hauled by LMS 2-6-4T or Black 5s in the mid 60s, which increases your operational options.  You might want to mix an odd Thompson or even a Gresley into the train, but these are 64' stock same as the mk1s and won't save you any space!  57' LMS Stanier coaches are possible but unlikely.  You could include a blue/grey mk1 or grey/blue Metro-Cammell mk1 Pullman as well after 1966.

Edited December 21, 2019 by The Johnster

[Ben C]

Thanks all for your help.

I think to keep it simple I'll stick with the maroon mk1's. Given that I'm looking at early 60s would they likely have been open or corridor coaches?

 

23 hours ago, Robert Stokes said:

I would suggest a BSK at each end and SKs with one FK or CK in between..

 

If I go with this sort of formation I assume the brake at each end is to allow for running around at the end of the line?

Would I be right in remembering reading somewhere that a short train would sometimes have the brake in the middle, or am I imagining that?

[Ben C]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A Bradford type situation is a good bet, but the short portions to be added to trains at Leeds were just as likely to be hauled by LMS 2-6-4T or Black 5s in the mid 60s, which increases your operational options.  You might want to mix an odd Thompson or even a Gresley into the train, but these are 64' stock same as the mk1s and won't save you any space!  57' LMS Stanier coaches are possible but unlikely.  You could include a blue/grey mk1 or grey/blue Metro-Cammell mk1 Pullman as well after 1966.

 

I've already got an A3 which will be on mainline passenger duties with the Deltic, also a K1 for freight.

Theres then a 3MT and 4MT for local services. Will most likely have the 4MT on local goods and the 3MT with 3 or 4 blood and custard coaches. I gather by the early 60s there wouldn't have been many of these around but I'm willing to be a bit loose with the era because I like the look of them!

[Robert Stokes]

I read somewhere that two bogie coaches are allowed behind a brake coach so I suppose that you only need one in the middle of a five coach train. However, I don't know whether this would have been done in practice. On the other hand, I think that I have seen pictures of three coach trains with the brake coach in the middle.

 

Robert

[The Johnster]

Pre 1968, when the General Appendix (to the Rules and Regulations), which covered operational practice of this sort, was altered (no doubt Mike Stationmaster will correct me if I'm wrong about this), two bogie vehicles could be marshalled behind the brake van on a passenger train, the van in which the guard is riding that is.  The later instruction allows up to 10, and 20 on non-passenger carrying trains, and of course the single manning agreement allowing guards on such trains to ride in the rear cab of the loco came in the following year.  But as far as your early 60s period is concerned, and what is presumably going to be a layout based on the GN in the West Riding, ee ba gum, 2 behind the van is the rule.  You can also marshall 2 vehicles behind the van on fully fitted goods trains; of course you need a piped van for this.

 

The position of the brake van on short trains varied according to local practice, often stemming from pre nationalisation practice.  Some areas preferred the van towards the centre of the train, with the advantage that station work could be carried out under the canopy out of the rain and the staff had less  distance to walk to confer with the guard, others held that the guard should be at the rear or as close to it as possible in order to protect the train in the rear in an 'incident'; the GW's fixed formation suburban and B sets had brake vans at each end of each set.  Multiple unit stock seemed to have it's own rules, Swindon 4-car Inter City, Trans Pennine, and some of the Southern's emu stock had more than 2 vehicles behind the van.

 

Normal practice for your layout is probably to have the van at the rear of the train but an occasional 'strengthener' coach may be attached behind it.  You probably don't have to worry about catering vehicles; these are attached with the main portion of the train at Leeds.  The blood and custard livery stopped being applied to coaches coming out of paint shops in 1956, but a few would still be in service in the early 60s.  Suburbans and NPCCS were painted in unlined maroon between 1956 and 58, before being given the same lined livery as gangwayed coaches, so examples of both liveries can appear on your layout.

 

You have a lot of loco and stock biodiversity available for such a layout; ex LNER,  almost any LMS type that survived into the mid 60s, and BR standard steam, and class 20, 24, 25, 31, 37, 40, 45/6, and 47 diesel, along with Metro-Cammell, Cravens. Derby Lightweight, and Calder Valley dmus, all available RTR.  The missing link from RTR is the BRCW class 104, which can be converted from the Hornby Calder Valley sets.  Non gangwayed loco hauled passenger stock was becoming rare, replaced by dmus, but still found work on reliefs and excursions; BR standard, ex LMS, and ex LNER Thompson stock is suitable, as are gangwayed Staniers, Thompsons, and Gresleys on through trains other than London bound traffic.  Parcels can be and was anything and everything, same goes for general merchandise goods but avoid private owner liveries on 5-plank opens and vans.  Mineral traffic still featured a smattering of wooden 7-plank XPOs, but the liveries were very far gone if any had survived BR repaints by that time; avoid PO liveries in general for them.  Tank wagons were still PO of course and cement traffic was often labelled for the cement firm.

Edited December 21, 2019 by The Johnster

[rogerzilla]

I thought express services were generally blood-and-custard while secondary services were all-over maroon?

[keefer]

Maroon (with lining) was the 1956 replacement for blood & custard, i.e. primary stock.

Secondary stock was plain crimson (i.e. just blood!), later some stock went into plain maroon.

Main-line stock would likely get repainted more quickly, the secondary stock less so

(Livery transitions are a minefield, there are multiple topics already on RMWeb)

Edited December 21, 2019 by keefer

[The Johnster]

Blood and custard, crimson and cream, was adopted as the livery for gangwayed passenger stock from 31/5/1948, along with plain unlined crimson for non-ganwayed and parcels/NPCCS.  Some NPCCS with guard's compartments were painted crimson and cream to run with express rakes.  Between 1/1/48 and 31/5, the previous liveries were used with BR gill sans style numbers and lettering, and no ownership branding.  The WR painted auto trailers in crimson and cream for about 2 years, until Mr Riddles saw one at Paddington and demanded to know what his best express livery was doing on the coach, and the WR thereafter painted auto trailers plain crimson.  

 

I'm less sure of the exact dates but that was the situation until 1956, when lined maroon was adopted for gangwayed passenger stock, and plain maroon for non-gangwayed/NPCCS; again, some NPCCS with guard's compartments were painted in the lined maroon livery to match set express rakes.  This pertained until 1958, when the lined maroon livery became standard for all carriage stock.  At the same time, the regions were given a degree of autonomy in terms of liveries, and the Southern Region began painting all it's carriage stock in malachite green.  The WR painted some named train express sets in a chocolate and cream livery similar to GWR but with different lining and a chocolate band at cantrail level.  Again, some BR mk1 BGs were painted to match, and these were constantly under threat of being 'borrowed' by the Southern's Western Section to use with Pullmans.

 

In 1962 mk1s built at Swindon began appearing with B2 bogies, and these were fitted to the experimental XP64 set in 1964, the first coaches to appear in the new blue/grey livery.  This was introduced for all main line stock in 1966, with plain blue initially for non-gangwayed or NPCCS, with the usual exceptions for some BGs. Mk 2 stock was built in 1965 and early 66 before the overall introduction of blue/grey, FOs for the ER and SR in lined maroon and malachite green respectively.

 

As Keefer points out above, livery transitions were a minefield, and it is clearly best to work from photos of known provenance and date when you can, otherwise you are reduced to best guess.  Crimson/cream and plain crimson stock could certainly be seen in the early 60s, as could plain maroon, but I'd suggest was all gone before the middle of the decade; suburban stock was being culled at an increasing rate as dmus took the work and even very recent stock was being scrapped.  The BR mk1 GUV and CCT vans were not introduced until after 1958 and thus never carried the plain crimson or maroon liveries.  

Edited December 21, 2019 by The Johnster

[Aire Head]

8 hours ago, Ben C said:

 

I've already got an A3 which will be on mainline passenger duties with the Deltic, also a K1 for freight.

Theres then a 3MT and 4MT for local services. Will most likely have the 4MT on local goods and the 3MT with 3 or 4 blood and custard coaches. I gather by the early 60s there wouldn't have been many of these around but I'm willing to be a bit loose with the era because I like the look of them!

 

What type of coach are the Blood and Custards? If you go for 1961/2 when the Deltics were first Introduced I would have expected some Blood and Custard stock to have been kicking around. Particularly if used on secondary workings which was often in the hands of pre-nationalisation stock.

 

Formations wise for a 5 coach set how about something along the lines of 

 

BCK FK SK SK BSK

 

A lot of formations for portions tended to have brake at both ends.

[adb968008]

I was only 6 when Deltics finished.

i have a couple of pictures, most Trans Pennine.. 

 

A few consisted of BG + mix of mk1/mk2  upto 6 coaches.

I have a 6 coach rake of mk2’s (a) throughout, bso being in the middle.

 

Mk2  carriages I recommend  Bachmann.

 

Mk1 I recommend Hornbys more recent (R47xx +) numbered releases, whilst it lacks wire roof hand rails, its a better overall shape than Bachmanns (which is 25 years old), and a very good overall paint finish for the price.

 

 

[Titan]

D9019 was not named until late '65, so not suitable for early 60's transition unless rule 1 is invoked.

[slilley]

9 hours ago, Titan said:

D9019 was not named until late '65, so not suitable for early 60's transition unless rule 1 is invoked.

Also with D9019 the best rukle of thumb is if you have it named it should have cast bogies not fabricated ones.

[The Johnster]

18 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

What type of coach are the Blood and Custards?

Blood and Custard is the usual name for the 1949-56 livery applied to gangwayed coaches, officially Carmine and Cream.  It is the livery, not a type of coach, and was applied to all types of gangwayed passenger stock, and a number of full brake vehicles painted to run with them.  This encompassed BIg 4 and any remaining pregrouping stock, but very little pregrouping stock of this sort was left by the early 60s. BR mk1s were painted in this livery prior to 1956 as well, but types introduced after that, such as the RMB, Sleepers, GUV, and CCT, never carried it.  

 

Mk2s were not introduced into service until 1965, so are a tad late for the OP's purposes.

[Ben C]

Many thanks again for all the input. With every reply it's becoming apparent how little I know.

The layout, as mentioned, is going to be loosely based on early 60s north eastern. In an ideal world it would be based on Alnmouth on the ECML with its branch to Alnwick. In 8x8' though the best I can manage is an extremely simplified layout with just a bit of a flavour of it. So a it's a twin track mainline with branchline and a fairly minimal yard.

 

20 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

What type of coach are the Blood and Custards? If you go for 1961/2 when the Deltics were first Introduced I would have expected some Blood and Custard stock to have been kicking around. Particularly if used on secondary workings which was often in the hands of pre-nationalisation stock.

 

Formations wise for a 5 coach set how about something along the lines of 

 

BCK FK SK SK BSK

 

A lot of formations for portions tended to have brake at both ends.

The blood and custards I mentioned haven't been bought yet. I'd just quite like to use some as they look good to me and was just wondering if it would be within the realms of possibility to see them on the branch service.

For the Deltic coaches I'll go with a formation like you've mentioned in mk1 maroons. Seems like it makes sense.

 

12 hours ago, Titan said:

D9019 was not named until late '65, so not suitable for early 60's transition unless rule 1 is invoked.

Definitely a bit of rule 1 involved! Though at the minute it's just a preorder so may see if I can change it. Accurascale are also doing 'The green Howards' which is apparently as delivered in '61 so may be more suitable.

[Aire Head]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Blood and Custard is the usual name for the 1949-56 livery applied to gangwayed coaches, officially Carmine and Cream.  It is the livery, not a type of coach, and was applied to all types of gangwayed passenger stock, and a number of full brake vehicles painted to run with them.  This encompassed BIg 4 and any remaining pregrouping stock, but very little pregrouping stock of this sort was left by the early 60s. BR mk1s were painted in this livery prior to 1956 as well, but types introduced after that, such as the RMB, Sleepers, GUV, and CCT, never carried it.  

 

I am aware, I meant was he getting Staniers/Thompson's/Gresleys etc 

 

[Aire Head]

3 hours ago, Ben C said:

The blood and custards I mentioned haven't been bought yet. I'd just quite like to use some as they look good to me and was just wondering if it would be within the realms of possibility to see them on the branch service.

For the Deltic coaches I'll go with a formation like you've mentioned in mk1 maroons. Seems like it makes sense.

 

Older pre-nationalisation stock was certainly used on secondary services.

 

A nice rake of Blood and Custard Thompson's and Gresleys hauled by a B1 or similar would make a good depiction of such a service. 

[Ben C]

For the area I'm (very loosely) aiming for there were apparently B1s in use so will have to look at adding one of those, but it seems mostly K1s and V2s. I've already got the Hornby K1. Bachmann are due to release a V2 sometime soon  so I think that will be on the list as well.

[The Johnster]

Older coaches were overhauled and repainted at the same sort of mileage as mk1s, so the ratio of blood and custards to lined maroons would about the same in any location at any given time.  The rake of Thompsons and Gresleys behind the B1 or similar suggested by Aire Head would, in the early 60s, consist of a majority of lined maroon coaches and a minority of blood and custards.  By the mid 60s, there would be very few blood and custards of any sort left, the pre-nationalisation coaches having been withdrawn or repainted into lined maroon along with the mk1s.  A complete rake of blood and custards would be very unlikely even the early 60s, while a complete rake of even 12 or 14 in lined maroon would be the norm.  By 1967, very few pre-nationalisation types were left, and I do not recall any post 1968 except for buffets, sleepers, and NPCCS.